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HomeAircraftHelicopterAerobatic FAI F3C F3N Contest › When a 700E DFC tries to do 3C
10-14-2012 12:39 PM  5 years agoPost 1
RLHeli

rrApprentice

Auckland - New Zealand

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Hi Group,
It has been quiet here recently. I thought I'd make some noise by shamelessly sharing my recent 3C project with you all. All comments/suggestions/criticisms will be deeply appreciated.
JR and ALIGN die hard fans might want to look away now as I introduce my "700E ASG"

This by no means is the very first attempt at marrying JR ASG head with ALIGN 700 series mechanic. Recalling as early as 2010 UK national, there was already a couple of 700N with then VibeSG head. They were at a corner of a picture and very little has been said about them.

So. I have been flying my VSG since its very release, it was meant to be a 3D machine but I was having a lot of trouble getting on top of my YS 91 SR-3C. Therefore, while trying to outsmart YS, I played with the head too. 3 years gone by and the YS is still untamed but I have pretty good understanding of the ASG head (several upgrades to bring it from VSG head to ASG head except the very expensive grips). When my ratio adjustment reflected correctly in flight, I knew I got it

Inspiration of my project

A stretched, electrified Vibe 50 that runs 12S swinging Radix FAI 710, every bit of a competitive FAI machine with whole lot of Kiwi ingenuity and ¡°can-do¡± attitude. Most of all, it is affordable and easy to find parts. It even has CY¡¯s approval.

After two rounds of FAI competition this year, I realised it is time to go electric as I seriously need to work on aerobatic components. With YS powered VSG, I would never get enough upstairs air time. Also, the release of 700E DFC fell nicely in place. 700E DFC was chosen mainly due to accessibility of parts. I am fortunately enough to know some good contact and being not so sure if this is going to work, I don't want to invest too much. On top of that, it is always easy to sell an ALIGN heli shall the project fail. Then the direct swash actuation makes it more configurable shall I need to raise or lower swash or use different swash.

Keeping things simple and wanted to retain the feel that I'd liked with VSG as much as possible, I first transplant everything swash up from VSG to 700E DFC

It looked workable but binding soon appear

That was -10¡ãpitch and 6+¡ãf&b. This is due to ALIGN swash has ball positions that are further away from the center, servo to swash and swash to head, compared with JR swash.

After digging deep into my drawer, this came out of the search

This is the VJ Product 12mm mixing base with 600 mixing arms with spacer nuts to have proper stand-off for the arms, otherwise phasing will be off and heli will fly funny.

Notice that ALIGN mixing base is wider than JR/VJProduct's. 700E mixing base cannot be used here as the phase pin is different size.

This is everything puting together with the spacer nut shown. Now the R arm lines up with center of mast.


Showing all the necessary parts:
JR ASG Rotor Head Assembly
JR/K&S/VJProduct 12mm Mixing Base
ALIGN 600 Mixing Arm
Thin 3mm nylon nuts (I shall be more specific about the height of it )
ALIGN 700 FBL Mast
ALIGN FB Swash with DFC servo balls and 4 600 balls on the inner ring

Here is my delta and bell/hiller setup

With VJProduct FAI arm, the head spots correcting delta. It helps managing the wind a lot when required ratio is hit, when off, it is nevertheless rather confusing.
Bell/Hiller ratio looks and measured 1:1 but because of their positions away from spindle center their effect is not 1:1. Notice that the Hiller linkage ball does not have the stand off it suppose to have but now with Bell linkage ball. It felt very disconnected, flybar overpowering first flight after conversion, then a fellow 3C vetern reminded me to increase Bell input. So I moved the Bell linkage ball one hole towards the center but then heli drift with wind (flybar not powerful enough) and linkage binding happended at large -v pitch as Bell link got too close to seesaw. After gazing at the head for sometime (number of days of flying) I finally realised that I could put Bell ball position back to where it was and simply use the stand off on the Hiller ball to correct the balance.
Now it hovers better than VSG. It refuses to move when there is no input . I have to max out travels to get +14¡ã ~ -10¡ã collective/7.5¡ãcyclics, swash menu values are in their high 70s. This yields max control resolution. With speed and torque of BL700H, I am not so worry about the servo travels. So far I am very impressed with BL700H, they respone to every single sub trim and in flight, trims do not seems to drift and the same amount of trim between modes of same type of maneuvour.

Hope you still awake and enjoy the read . I now have an inexpensive 3C machine that I can fly and not worry about crashing it. Another beauty about this is now that 800 machines have been flew in 3C, I am only 1 pair of blades, 1 boom, 1 TT and 1 tail control CF tube away from try it out and that can happen next week

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10-15-2012 08:19 PM  5 years agoPost 2
Santiago P

rrProfessor

South West, Ohio

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Let see you do something really cool like putting the DFC on a Sylphide

It will make the movie Frankenwinnie look like a sad story.

S

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10-15-2012 11:03 PM  5 years agoPost 3
Hooch

rrApprentice

Auckland, New Zealand

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Looking really good Ramins. Im really keen to see how well it sits in the wind, and how easily you can adjust any bad tendancies out of the head. Well done. catch you shortly once this horroble weather improves. Callum

LOGO700
LOGO600sx
TREX 500 FBL

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10-16-2012 04:54 AM  5 years agoPost 4
RLHeli

rrApprentice

Auckland - New Zealand

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Thanks MoneyPitVictim, shall I have a Sylphide E12, I would not have to do this isn't it
But it is quite possible to later see my VibeSG spotting dyed black DFC head (I hear you shout "Don't go there!") when I have a better FBL controller than 3GX. Custom fit a FBL head is no brainer when compare to fitting a competition grade FB head. My friend and I took no less than 20 measurements before concluding it was possbile and should fall somewhere in the ball park but the first flight after the transplant was streets away. Very humbled by this experience. Likely it just came out in my favor and might not work at all for others.
I thought it look better with ASG head. 56mm taller. I have plan to do a U base such that it will take 14S easy and get even taller. But that's not an immediate project.

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10-16-2012 05:06 AM  5 years agoPost 5
RLHeli

rrApprentice

Auckland - New Zealand

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Hi Callum,
Back in town? I will be out there as soon as wind drops below 30. Very eager to try some other settings. Consistence of e-heli makes it so much easier to pick up the effects of adjustments.
KDE motor mount has arrived so I will be playing with gearing too. Thinking 112/11 with 530KV, I shall comfortablly get 2000rpm to have improved cyclic. Will put aside 110/13 with 450KV for 800 project Got a blade to recommend? Don't ready what to go JR. $$$ and intel said that it is another FK anyway

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10-16-2012 03:21 PM  5 years agoPost 6
Santiago P

rrProfessor

South West, Ohio

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RLH,

I was jocking.
Don't ever put a DFC on an Sylphide, it will implode spontaneously.

BTW, what you done is very practical, new/simple/light/affordable chasis + proven F3C head = winner setup

I can see others trying this. Keep us updated with the progress

Santiago

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10-19-2012 01:26 AM  5 years agoPost 7
RLHeli

rrApprentice

Auckland - New Zealand

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Hi Santiago,
Thank you for the kind words. You nailed it right there with "new/simple/light/affordable chasis + proven F3C head = winner setup", tho I will replace winner with reliable/predictable
I took it out for 3 hovering session in ~35kph wind and really happy with how well behaved it was under the condition. Side wind and pirouetting steability increased significantly.
Back when ASG head was on VSG, in the scenario of nose-in combined with wind coming from my right, I had to pull quite hard back on F&B to stop the heli coming towards me (ps: many brillant minds on this forum suggested shortening flybar to minimize this tendency of ASG head) and hence the top half of my Diamond 3 was all over the place as soon as wind got above 20kph. I tried very hard to learn the amount of vector but phew... this is probably the most difficult vector to hold amoung the P hoverings.
But now, somehow the flybar is doing its job properly, I observered it pitched up and down a little while gusts hit, I did still have to correct it but definitely not holding on F&B all the time. I reckon pirouetting got improved because of this. I am getting close to being able to pirouette on a dime Still remember seeing CY and Sensui San pirouette on the tip of a pin and wonder how they did that? Was it all because of that $5K+ Kalt Omega? But CY was with a relatively budget X-Cell
Anyway, with this cross, I seemed to have enter another phase of my 3C flying. I will see if I can make any video during the weekend but it is constantly 40+kph out there and well into next week.

(ps: I totally enjoyed your coverage of US National. Thank you very much for that )

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11-11-2012 09:25 AM  5 years agoPost 8
RLHeli

rrApprentice

Auckland - New Zealand

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Hi all,
Since last post, I have pretty much been away and knee deep in a falling-over project so nothing interesting happened this heli-wise.
However, did managed to sourced enough parts to stretch 700E ASG to 800E ASG and giving it its own ASG head and restore Vibe SG back to where it was. Did not take long but 7 hours striaght on SAT. This is even harder than work .
Managed 3 flights this afternoon in 25+kph crosswind but his will be another story since the test flights were done with wrong gear ratio and motor KV set to ESC.
However, got this one to share and I recommend this upgrade to any JR fliers who think the mixing base on their JR heli is bit too close to swash (this is the reason why I used ALIGN 600 swash arm)

One on the left is the original washout link and the one is the latest washout link "c" [JR-70648]
Immediately, the gap between mixing base and swash is increased and swash can tilt further before binding will occur, not to method better linkage geometry. But be warned, you will have to set up your heli all over again.
With this, my 800E ASG is now spotting complete ASG parts swash up. Will update you all once I have it nailed. Now that Vibe SG is flyable so I can make some good comparisons.

Later and best regards,
Ramins

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11-19-2012 08:49 AM  5 years agoPost 9
RLHeli

rrApprentice

Auckland - New Zealand

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800E ASG is now fully tuned and flying . 750MX-450KV with 112T/13T
But its first competition has to wait until well into 2013. It was 40+ kph not to mention persistent showers last weekend and the comp was cancelled.
The following 800E parts were used to complete this upgrade:
1. [H80T001XXW] 800E Tail Boom Mount
2. [H80T005XXW] 800E Carbon Fiber Tail Boom Set
3. [H80T011XXW] 800E Torque Tube
4. [H80T006XXW] 800E Carbon Tail Control Rod Assembly
5. [H80T002XXW] 800E Metal Stabilizer Belt
6. [H80T004XXW] 800E Carbon Stabilizer/2.0mm
7. [H80T003XXW] 800E Metal Tail Torque Tube Unit
8. [H80T008XXW] 115 Carbon Fiber Tail Blade
9. [HD800N] 800 Carbon Fibre Blades
A very affordable upgrade that brings significant improvement in performance. A good anology will be mounting 600 blades to 550 helis.
However, since 800E is a cameraship, its tail boom is rather thick and heavy for correcting CG as well as carrying extra li-pos. This is unnecessary and undesirable for aerobatic machines. Therefore, if you have access to 22/915mm Al/CF tube, you will be better off modifying the tube for extending the boom then you will only need to purchase 800E TT and 800E Carbon Tail Control Rod Assembly and maybe 800E Carbon Stabilizer/2.0mm to complete the upgrade.

ALIGN 800 CF blades has the following specs:
Length: 800mm
Chord: 70mm
Thickness: 8.8mm
Weight: 225mm
CG: 375mm from tip (~53%)
"Non-leading", is this the right word for if you hang the blade by the bolt, its leading edge is normal to horizon?
However, it is more of a 3D blade rather than a 3C or cameraship blade. When compared to SG-720 (720/61.5/222/57%), it performs poorly in auto, slow to gain but quick to lose rpm. It is beyond me why ALIGN would make 3D blade for cameraship

In hovering, 1450 rpm, it is not as stable and lock-in as SG-720 but close. However the physical benefit of having a larger disk shows when stepping into aeros (1850rpm). In the air, it feels light, quick and snappy, loop as big as you want with only ele input, quarter rolls with ease (probably due to more visible disk), excellent vertical penertration (often it over shots my check points). However, as physics dictates it is pretty hungry with electrons. With the 5000mAh packs, it will be down to 15% when I finish P in 8mins. So 6000mAh packs are a must for F.


The mixing ratio is nearly identical to VSG with SG-720. The only difference is the stand-offs of hiller balls on the bell/hiller mixer are removed to increase flybar authority. This is done in response to increased rotor power brought by 800 size rotor.


To have proper tail fin/tail rotor clearance. I sandwiched Voyager skid dampers (14mm tall) between bottom CF frames (opted not to use original metal bottom frame for weight saving). Someone might want to make a U base for 700E to take 14s/6000mAh?

It takes a little use to, especially with longer boom, correction with ele really shows and when it is in the air you notice the boom too. I don't use the disk to orientate so the larger dish does not bother me much but my wife did comment that the disk looks a lot larger than SG-720.
6000mAh li-pos and a pair of decent FAI blades are the remaining upgrades it needs. I am going to check CYE website everyday untill Curtis releases Radix 800 FAI .

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