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Blade 130 › Anyone experiment installing a 3rd TT bearing?
09-28-2012 01:37 AM  6 years agoPost 1
turboomni

rrProfessor

East of the Equator

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My 130x has had it's share of teething problems that have been mostly cured. One last problem I have had I can't seem to get rid of. It is the slapping , or rubbing,, or whipping of the torque tube in the tail boom. It is not nearly as bad as the whole tail shaking problem which is all but gone now. I replaced the boom and tailboom bearings as well as the torque tube as well. It is better but I still hear the chatter in there especially when I run it up in my hand without the main blades on. What it really needs is a 3rd bearing somewhere in the middle to keep that TT centered and happy. A fellow at another forum has experimented and made one and the flight video and his impressions were very favorable with maybe more power but longer flight times or less mah being put back in the lipo on charging.The bird looked very smooth and powerful. My crude calculations say that with a headspeed of 4800 and the torque tube turns roughly about 3 and 1/2 turns per mains one revolution the TT is turning close to 17,000 rpms with no center support bearing,,,yikes! Any of you guys tried this or have made one for yourself?

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them

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09-28-2012 06:23 AM  6 years agoPost 2
honeybeeman

rrVeteran

kenner, LA

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i was thinking about the same issue. where do i go from here, any ideas how to do it? thanks

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09-28-2012 05:01 PM  6 years agoPost 3
Dee Flies 3D

rrApprentice

Farmington Hls, Mich - USA

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I've been also thinking about this. . .
For a test, I'm gonna find a piece of alum tubing that is just a bit larger than the TR shaft, & cut a piece about 2mm [0.09inch] long that I can put mid-way in the boom. If that seems to help, then try to replace it with a bearing.

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09-28-2012 07:16 PM  6 years agoPost 4
turboomni

rrProfessor

East of the Equator

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A fellow on another forum did his by going to a hobby train shop and bought two different sized square aluminum tubing. They can slide over each other. The larger sized could hold and center the bearing. Two smaller diameter pieces would then slide into the larger on either end. He says the weight is the same...hard to believe but that is what he says. But his heli was very smooth sounding on the video.
Dee Flies 3D ,,let us know how it works out for you.

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them

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09-29-2012 03:04 PM  6 years agoPost 5
Machinehead01

rrVeteran

Lower Michigan

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Just got a 130, but...
There are others at my LHS that have one and the same issues. What we have discovered is basically the same thing, but we use brass tubing and shorter lengths. The brass slides against itself better aluminum. As I get more into flying of mine I will also be doing some experimentation with it. Subscribed.

Tom

"You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone."

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10-02-2012 06:04 PM  6 years agoPost 6
Dee Flies 3D

rrApprentice

Farmington Hls, Mich - USA

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WELL - I did a test last nite with an alum tube. Tail shaft was verified straight & alum tube was centered in the tail boom. As RPM went higher, the shaft would 'walk' around the clearance of the inner tube diameter. You could hear the motor start laboring to maintain the collective stick postions. When I dis-assembled the boom after, there was a fine dust from the aluminum wearing away.
In the ancient days many designs used a drive wire in a brass tube [GMP, Hirobo], or many plastic disks (Schluter), but these were greased / oiled regularly. I thing this would need to be done here also - PAIN on a small tail boom . .
A bearing is probably a better solution. I may take a spare boom, cut in half & fit the bearing in (1) side, then bridge the splice with a short piece of square alum tube.

I do think that making sure the tail shaft is centered in the boom hole before tightening the support screws is more important than most folks think. If shaft is touching the top or bottom of the boom hole, it put a a bow in the shaft when the tail gear housing is added. This will try to twist the inner race of the support bearings, which could make them wear out quicker, then the loose shaft could make vibrations.

More to follow . .

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10-03-2012 03:08 AM  6 years agoPost 7
turboomni

rrProfessor

East of the Equator

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Thanks for the report Dee Flies 3D. I had some time to kill so I ran up the 130 in my hand ,,no mains and no tail blades. Felt the boom as it was whipping or what ever you call it. Loosened the bolts retaining the tail boom on the main frame and tried different positions,,in out ,,twisting it slightly up down ,,sideways at the base where it enters the main frame ,nothing changed. Did the same way out at the tail. If I bent more than slightly the tail boom so that it was clearly bent a certain way it would be as smooth as glass but clearly not straight.
Pulled the torque shaft out and put it on my high point balancer to see if it was bent. It's new and straight as an arrow. Inspecting it I saw the point it was rubbing. To my amazement it was not in the center but about 1 1/2 inches back from the tail case. There were black lines on the TT where it was whipping. I wonder if I should put a bearing there? Any of you have removed the TT and seen where it is rubbing? I wonder if there is a common place on the TT to happen or is it just a random thing.

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them

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10-03-2012 03:09 AM  6 years agoPost 8
pmcbs

rrNovice

North Texas

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I tried a third bearing midway in a larger tail boom. I reamed out the frame to 5/32 and about 6mm behind the front bearing made that 4mm. The tail box was opened to 5/32 also. Using round 4mm od x 3mm id boom. What i found is adding a spacer and bearing about 5mm behind the front bearing makes for a quite tail. I did try making a sleeve out of 5.5mm od x 4mm id in the middle of the boom but it did not seem to make as much difference as using the 2nd bearing behind the b gear. This is not something i would suggest unless you have a mill. It was a pia trying to keep the frame parallel. I also made a 4mm solid main shaft and using shims to set the A B gear mesh.

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10-03-2012 03:54 AM  6 years agoPost 9
turboomni

rrProfessor

East of the Equator

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What i found is adding a spacer and bearing about 5mm behind the front bearing makes for a quite tail.
Interesting. Did the mid point bearing only have any effect on the vibration? I wouldn't think so but I will explain if I can. I am no scientist , machinist,,engineer etc. But I do know [i think] if a rod is spun up and only supported only at the ends and at the right rpms it will behave much like a guitar string for example. There are nodes or points where vibrations are almost non exsistent but other parts of the rod or string are vibrating. In this case on a guitar string an octave harmonic it achieved simply by touching the string in it's exact half it's measured length. It will resonate at twice the cycles per second as the fundamental note. The reason being the string is cut in half in a sense with the center of the string being the node. The node has very little to no vibration,,the other two halves of the string vibrate at twice the speed thus causing an octave leap or twice the cycles per second. What does this have to do with the BLADE 130x?? I find it interesting that a second bearing close to the the front bearing smoothed it out. I found my TT wear pattern was close to the same point but at the other end. The center bearing may make things worse or no help at all! I wonder.
Just some random thoughts

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them

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10-03-2012 04:21 AM  6 years agoPost 10
pmcbs

rrNovice

North Texas

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The thing I noticed on mine was depending on where the a b gear meshed the rod would move out of center. I used Loctite on the b gear and shimmed so I don’t get as much defection. And adding the bearing close the original keeps the resonance down. Also tried a 4mm od x 2mm id boom and did not notice much difference in the vibes but thinking the weight might cause issues changed it out to the 3mm id. I don’t get the flex in the front hitting the boom causing resonance

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10-03-2012 09:56 PM  6 years agoPost 11
turboomni

rrProfessor

East of the Equator

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Great info. Until I can locate the K&S brand square tubing of the correct sizes without having to buy in bulk this bird is grounded. I can still fly it but it bugs me it is not correct. Without the mains and tailblades on when I ran it up in my hand and twisted the boom and it ran smooth as glass i forgot to mention the rpms went up except maybe at wot when the shaft was running true. So it is sapping power. I try to like most of us I'm sure to setup the heli the very best I can and take pride in a smooth correctly running heli. This heli is being stubborn on ironing out the last of these tail problems. There has got to be a good way to correct this without too much trouble. Problem is finding the best solution i guess.

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them

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10-07-2012 11:02 PM  6 years agoPost 12
turboomni

rrProfessor

East of the Equator

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Had some time to mess around with the 130x. I had new in package a torque shaft and a new tail boom. What was on the heli with the problems was a new TT and tailboom never crashed. I took out the TT that was in the heli and put it on my high point balancer and spun it to see any runout. None it was true. Spun up my fresh TT and it had alittle runout. I didnt use it. I kept the used ,true torque shaft and just replaced the tailboom. Both tailboom's looked true with no warps. {I did have one out of the box warped though before] Put it together with the new tail boom and so far the problem is gone. I closely eyeballed the old tailboom hoping to find a problem inside the tube [crooked etc] I found nothing.
Because it is now smoother I could up the gain to +3 on the gyro. Now I want to make a tail boom with 4 bearings!!

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them

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01-27-2013 04:45 PM  5 years agoPost 13
7HVMAN

rrApprentice

Michigam

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I made one with a 3rd bearing. It works fine for ten amount of work it took I would noted that again. Some say the steel tt wisp around inside the boom. If u guys want to try something try the carbon tt they sell now. I here reports saying that it takes a lot of noise out of the heli. I have not tried this yet but will be. Maybe the carbon r
Tt will have no need for center bearing.I just got the new steel c and d gears to try out to.

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01-27-2013 11:59 PM  5 years agoPost 14
drdot

rrElite Veteran

So. California, Orange County.

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fwiw..

I'm hoping that the new CF tt from Lynx will sort this out...I really think that the tail materials and dimensions are such that they tend to resonate at the harmonics/fundamental of the airframe/motor..
I've messes with this a lot, dynamically balancing the t/r and main blades makes it almost ok...Moving the second t/r pushrod support moves the rpm at which resonance occurs, but still there...If you mess about enough, you can ge two standing waves on the pushrod....

John.

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01-29-2013 04:02 AM  5 years agoPost 15
turboomni

rrProfessor

East of the Equator

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I hope the Lynx carbon TT fixes it...but my intuition tells me it will still be whipping around in there ,,maybe not as bad and because of the materials involved less audible. I am fine with that,,out of sight [or ear in this case] out of mind. But geeze I sure would like to see a glass smooth TT supported with 3 bearings keeping everything in check that isn't a Pain in the you know what to make. Love to see the perfect 3 bearing solution in production.....

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them

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01-30-2013 05:31 AM  5 years agoPost 16
skidzup

rrNovice

visalia CA 93277

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After spending some hours reading thru all the 130x mods and tail issues I decided to set down with mine last night and attack the tail vibes and noise. I did ca and green loctite the gears to the tt for peice of mind and to prevent the tt from walking as well as lengthening the boom braces. Then rather than trying to worry about a tt bearing or bushing i opted to drill a small oiling hole in the middle of the boom now in front of the braces as to not weaken the boom at all. This can be hand drilled so no dissasembly is required. Flew the machine today and glass smooth on spoolup and thru flight. A few drops of light oil (I am using O'lube which is a very thin liquid wax with Krytech) is all that is needed to add much longevity to the boom and tt as well as eliminate the noise and is super simple. Keep in mind that the tt only resonates and contacts the i.d. of the boom at specific rpms and not normally during flight. Hope this helps, easy enough to try.

All these micros somehow turned my 450 into my BIG machine!?!?!?

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01-30-2013 08:44 PM  5 years agoPost 17
7HVMAN

rrApprentice

Michigam

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Interesting should lube the bearing nice as long as the oil does not carry the carbon dust into the bearings. Maybe those cheep bearing will work better get more flights and report.

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01-30-2013 08:45 PM  5 years agoPost 18
7HVMAN

rrApprentice

Michigam

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Where can we buy this size square tubing anyone.

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01-30-2013 08:53 PM  5 years agoPost 19
Darren Lee

rrElite Veteran

Woodstock, GA

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The Lynx CF torque shaft does seem to eliminate this problem, or at least the noise. However, these shafts are extremely fragile and need to be replaced after the slightest tail touch.

I heard Lynx is developing a new boom and torque shaft system with a 3rd bearing.

Team Synergy / Rail Blades / Morgan Fuel

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01-30-2013 10:02 PM  5 years agoPost 20
d12bn

rrVeteran

lake charles

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I've been testing a 3rd bearing boom for Microheli for 2 months and its held up very well. Very smooth and quite. Not sure when it will be released but would think it should be soon.

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