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Home🏆Contest✈️Aircraft🚁Helicopter🏆Aerobatic FAI F3C F3N Contest › AMA rules, Sportsman, Advanced, and Expert
01-10-2013 01:02 AM  7 years ago
rocket_33

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Mount Pleasant, Michigan USA

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I know what you are saying Santiago but you are swinging a broad brush with a very small sample. If you look at the XFC or 3DM very few of those pilots are entered in or competitive in F3C. Yes Nick is a phenom but overall, very few participate in F3C
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01-10-2013 01:28 AM  7 years ago
Santiago P

rrProfessor

Dayton

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I guess my example is a bit dated, but the practice still holds.
Precision flying would make any "competition" 3D pilot a better one, not a pop-n-lock smacker.

Just the fact that they use the entire sky as a camvas, not just the 50'X50' block makes for a more entertaining routine.
Just my opinion...
like Whitney Houston once said, smack is wack.
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01-10-2013 10:56 AM  7 years ago
Sherman89

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Morriston Fl

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Agreed---a few of the top 3-D pilots are also top IMAC pilots.

Question: when reviewing the maneuvers for Sportsman I am assuming that once you leave the hover area and start the FF air work that one maneuver flows to the next as in procedure turn is followed by the straight line followed by the stall turn---now do the loop and roll flow from each one---what is the turnaround maneuver between the loop and roll and the final maneuver back at the hover box.
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01-10-2013 11:13 AM  7 years ago
rapidity

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ohio

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It's not turn around. Every maneuver is done at center, no end maneuvers. You can do whatever you want out yonder to bring it back.
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01-10-2013 01:12 PM  7 years ago
Sherman89

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Morriston Fl

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Does the 120deg view by the judges apply to the turnaround area (out yonder)?
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01-10-2013 04:38 PM  7 years ago
rocket_33

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Mount Pleasant, Michigan USA

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Nope
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01-10-2013 06:26 PM  7 years ago
Santiago P

rrProfessor

Dayton

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Perhaps watching a few videos from previous AMA Nats will give you a better perspective.

Cant find any class I or II, these are class III:

https://rc.runryder.com/rrTV-Photo/...TS2010-2A01.mp4

https://rc.runryder.com/rrTV-Photo/...TS2010-2A02.mp4

https://rc.runryder.com/rrTV-Photo/...TS2010-2A03.mp4

https://rc.runryder.com/rrTV-Photo/...TS2010-2A04.mp4

https://rc.runryder.com/rrTV-Photo/...TS2010-2A05.mp4

Take no pity on the guy on the last video, he took on the CD in the Nats octagon and lost...

Santiago
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01-11-2013 11:06 AM  7 years ago
Sherman89

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Morriston Fl

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MPV,
Thanks for posting the videos----I get the turnaround method now. The FF air work---no problem----the hovering is a whole different ball game. I don't seem to be able to stay on point when hovering----I am chasing the sticks----is there a setup trick or 2 that I need to know??? I fly FBL----TSA 700-E with a AR7200BX. In IMAC balance and trim is what we constantly chase---heli's I have no idea other than balance and trim.
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01-11-2013 12:58 PM  7 years ago
gwright

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Champaign Il

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I'm not sure about the beastx unit but on others I've been able to achieve good hovering qualities by adjusting settings that increase deadband on cyclics, and drastically reducing cyclic values . On the CGY it's the "control feel" you want to adjust, most like it 5 to 7, I liked 9 or 10 (10 is highest) and yes it's a course enough adjustment you can feel the difference in 9 and 10. When I was using the CGY I also ended up with 30% ATV's and 60% expo in the hover mode(as opposed to 100% ATV's for aerobatics). With the GT5 they have a "hover" setting that goes 1 to 5 with 5 being the smoothest. I like 4 because at 5 the deadband is a touch too high and when doing aerobatics you have to anticipate as it will continue to rotate just a teeny bit after you release the input. Additionally the GT5 has specific cyclic deadband settings which I have maxed out for the sensor deadband and slightly increased for the stick deadband. Since I've gotten away from trying to achieve a good hover setup due to not hovering much these days since I don't care to practice contest stuff, I'm not using the drastically reduced cyclic values, just heaps more expo to smooth things out, which I should have warned Gordie about in orlando Gary Wright
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01-11-2013 04:31 PM  7 years ago
Sherman89

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Morriston Fl

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Thanks for the info, I will try less ATV and more expo---I am now running 100% on el and ail and 30% expo----it seems I am at the wrong end for hovering.
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01-11-2013 11:30 PM  7 years ago
Santiago P

rrProfessor

Dayton

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Hovering is still what separates the men from the boys. A good setup brings the pain thresholds below birthing pains.
A bad setup will make you wanna quit instantly and cry mommy.

Is not easy.
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01-12-2013 10:02 AM  7 years ago
Sherman89

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Morriston Fl

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I am still at the crying stage and it is very frustrating---no wonder 3-D is more fun----it is so much easier!!!!!!
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01-12-2013 10:03 AM  7 years ago
Sherman89

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Morriston Fl

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Gwright,
When you say ATV do you mean rate or actual ATV?
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01-12-2013 02:55 PM  7 years ago
Santiago P

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Dayton

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I am sure he meant D/R instead of ATV. The end result is the same with most units as the Setup is done in the FBL unit.
I Tune the rates and feel with the D/R.

We tent to forget the stick is not longer commanding an amount of servo travel, but a rotation rate.
We fly a little computer, and It flies the servos.
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01-12-2013 05:31 PM  7 years ago
FireNWater

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Collierville, TN

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I noticed that the schedules are about 9 minutes long. Is there a chance for electric guys to swap in a new set of batts?Buy Cheap, Buy Twice . . .
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01-13-2013 12:19 AM  7 years ago
Santiago P

rrProfessor

Dayton

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We all complete the schedules with one set. Most folks even use 25 to 35C batteries using 80% of 5000ma to 5100ma batts.
Some higher C batteries actually give you a shorter flight.
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01-13-2013 03:26 AM  7 years ago
Heliguychris

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Perth, West Australia

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Thank you Gordie, and the other gents, for sharing your thoughts on this.

As the organizer and CD for last years Australian Nats, i am excited to see discussion on furthur development of competition flying, and the intergration of the latest technology, into the competition arena.

I beleive we lost several competitors last year, being that they were not allowed to compete with FBL models in FAI.

As an IMAC competitor as well, i would note that in Aus at least, the IMAC scene has a much greater support, than the F3C scene. At the recent IMAC nats, we had approx 9 times more pilots, than at the Heli nats! I beleive there are several reasons for this.

IMAC comps consist of pilot judges. Each pilot is expected to scribe and judge. The judging is very thorough, for the most part, with judging training being conducted at each of the events throughout the year. To this end, this years IMAC nats was run on dual flightlines, to get through the pilots, in 3 days. A 5 day nationals would be unfeasible in our situation.

Being this as it may, an unknown round or rounds, would work i beleive, in that they are just a rejumbling of the same manouvers that are part of the schedules anyhow.

The pilot judges are trained to score properly, IMAC puts this to use. It helps the pilot with their flying as well, as they have a better idea of what would constitute a correct and proper manouver.

Similarily, a 5/4 day nationals comp, on a single flight line, could easily be condensed down to 3 days, or perhaps 2 and a1/2 days, on a dual flight line.

With the pilots judging, it is simply a matter of scheduling, to get said pilot, to their appropriate judges seat, at the correct time. This would allow the proffesional judges a chance to compete as well.

Another draw card for the IMAC comps, is the rather spectacular prizes on offer. At the heli nationals, we were struggling to get anything more than token support, due to numerous factors. For the IMAC nats, we had several 1 and 2 thousand dollar prizes on offer, that were no doubt an incentive, to get folks to compete.

I truly hope to see a return of FAI heli in a big way in the comming years, and wish the other contest Directors and rules commitee, the very best of luck formulating successful contests in the future.

Yours faithfully,
Chris Stuart, 2nd FAI heli and 5th sportsman IMAC nats competitor.
Licensed (CASA) UAV operator certificate holder 1-YFOF5-01 www.helicamaerial.com.au
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01-13-2013 05:48 PM  7 years ago
FireNWater

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Collierville, TN

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We all complete the schedules with one set. Most folks even use 25 to 35C batteries using 80% of 5000ma to 5100ma batts.
Some higher C batteries actually give you a shorter flight.
.
So I guess everyone is flying 700-size helos? Not sure I can make 9 minute flight with my packs, or they'll be smoking like the nitros. Flying a Trex 600 with 12S-3300's.
.
Buy Cheap, Buy Twice . . .
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01-14-2013 01:57 AM  7 years ago
Santiago P

rrProfessor

Dayton

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Chris

Thank you for sharing your insight!

FireNWater

All 21 but 3 entrants at the last AMA Heli Nats were electric, all 700 models.
700 size models are not only more stable, but also more efficient and can make the schedules easily.
Flying a Trex 600 with 12S-3300's.
That wont cut it.
Maybe with 3800-4000ma 30C light packs and 620mm blades.

Gordie, Craig, et al
Are you guys already considering to combine flybar and flybarless for AMA 2013 NATS?
(not FAI)

Santiago
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01-14-2013 12:49 PM  7 years ago
gwright

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Champaign Il

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I actually meant AFR, sorry. (It's like ATV but applies to the function rather than the individual channel). With the 14MZ you get seperate AFR's for each flight condition. Could use D/R, dunno if it matters, although logically the expo could apply differently depending on how it adds it in with AFR versus D/R. Probably the same though, I've just always used AFR.Gary Wright
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