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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › help with program set-up on old trex 450 (gyro settings)
08-12-2012 03:56 AM  6 years agoPost 1
kyrotorhead

rrApprentice

Louisville, Ky.

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bought this heli years ago and just now decided to do something with it. my buddy and i set this up and something about the gyro isn't right. it has a futaba 401 with matching servo, it comes up great but when you increase power it wants to spin around like the gyro isn't working or is lazy, when you come off of power it will spin the other way....now i need main gears and blades cause it went "in" this evening, here is the set up:
just setting up normal mode right now
transmitter jr6103
gyro sens: normal 85, heading hold 95 (just barely wags at these #'s)
all travel adjusts are 100%
travel adjust gear +150 -100
all rev up's are at 0
gyro delay at 0
Even with the sensitivity this high, the tail barely will wags.. but it won't hold the tail when increasing power. does these specs sound ok for this set up? I have been flying for years but been somewhat out of the hobby for a while so set-up specs and terminology is a bit blurry these days, been yrs since i have set one up. Does anyone have any used woodies, main gear and maybe a used 401? I know these are old gyros but i use them on my other birds and they do great! Thanks for any info.

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08-12-2012 04:06 AM  6 years agoPost 2
Solmanbandit

rrElite Veteran

Tucson , AZ

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A few things.

1. Inhibit the gyro menu and use the travel adjustment menu (gear) The left one will be Heading hold and the right number will be rate mode. Initially set both numbers at 50%.

2. Make sure the yellow wire is plugged in the gear channel on the receiver.

3. Make sure your trim is centered and use the sub trim to only center the tail servo.

4. Hover in rate mode and mechanically (not through the transmitter) adjust the tail to where it requires minimum rudder movement while hovering.

5. Set back in HH mode and should help.

On a side note, which tail servo are you using?

Trex 700E / Trex 500 ESP - Ikon/ HD 500 - Ikon 2/ Goblin 500 Ikon 2

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08-12-2012 04:30 AM  6 years agoPost 3
kyrotorhead

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Louisville, Ky.

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tail servo is a futaba S9650, the gyro will "compensate" when i push the tail boom, does this sound like a bad gyro or a set-up issue? I am very gunshy of this gyro. I looked on heliproz for gears, my main is white and the little gear that drives the tail is blue, but i can't find it on the site. Thankyou for your reply. the yellow wire is plugged into gear position

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08-12-2012 04:43 AM  6 years agoPost 4
Solmanbandit

rrElite Veteran

Tucson , AZ

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SPEED: 0.14 sec/60° @ 4.8V
0.11 sec/60° @ 6.0V
First of all, that servo is way too slow for a tail servo. This is the servo you really want for a 450. You basically need a really fast servo in the .07-.09 range. The 9257 is .08 and works great on a 450. There are other brands, but you do want one in that range.

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bi...?&I=LXRWT0&P=ML

Trex 700E / Trex 500 ESP - Ikon/ HD 500 - Ikon 2/ Goblin 500 Ikon 2

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08-12-2012 05:19 AM  6 years agoPost 5
jschenck

rrProfessor

La Vista, NE.

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we used to use the 9650 for tail servos on the 450's before the 9257 came out. if the servo is in good shape it should work.

I'd check the belt drive gear on the front - mine was slipping on the shaft and caused a couple crashes before I figured out that was it. Running the gain as a dedicated gear switch would allow you to troubleshoot potential gain issues without messing with different flight modes. worth trying imo

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08-12-2012 05:55 AM  6 years agoPost 6
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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but when you increase power it wants to spin around like the gyro isn't working or is lazy
If the heli is built correctly, RIGHT rudder should make the tail rotor servo pull the tail rotor pushrod toward the front of the heli. If not, reverse the rudder channel in your transmitter.

THEN, turn the nose of the heli to the LEFT while watching the tail rotor servo. It should pull the tail rotor pushrod forward, toward the nose of the heli. If it doesn't, change NOR/REV switch on the 401 gyro.

Both the TX and Gyro need to be told to move in the correct direction before flying.

-----

Nose of heli to your right, tail to your left, the tail rotor needs to be turning counter clockwise. If it's going the wrong way, you'll need to pull the tail boom off and work with the belt to get it on correctly -- it's twisted the wrong way.

The blade on the right side of the tail rotor shaft is moving UP, the control ball is on the top, and the leading edge of the blade is up.

The tail rotor blade on the left side of the tail rotor shaft is moving down, the control ball is on the bottom, the leading edge is on the bottom.

-----

The 401 gyro MUST be initialized in AVCS/HH mode. After it's initialized, the red LED on the gyro needs to be ON, solid. If it's blinking, you initialized in rate/normal mode. You will need to make sure the TX is set to select AVCS/HH mode, then apply power again.

-----

The DELAY setting on the 401 should be set to zero.

Your TX rudder channel endpoints should be set to 100%. The TRAVEL LIMIT should be set to 100% (to begin with).

With the 9650, turn the DS switch on the gyro ON.

This next step works best with the gyro in Normal mode because the servo will follow the control stick, and will return to neutral when you let go of the stick.

At neutral, the tail pitch slider needs to be centered in its left/right travel. The ball needs to be placed at a distance from servo center such that left/right rudder allows the servo to move at least +/- 45 degrees from neutral without binding the slider at either end of its travel. Get as close as you can, then use the TRAVEL LIMIT adjustment to fine tune the gyro so that you don't get any mechanical binding at either left or right rudder. Your goal is to keep the TRAVEL LIMIT close to 100%, get +/-45 degrees of servo movement (at least), and not slam the pitch slider against the left or right limit.

Once you've got that achieved, with the gyro in Normal mode, hover and adjust the tail rotor linkage until the heli will hover without wanting to yaw left or right.

With that out of the way, fire it up in HH mode and you should have a stable hover and the tail should be under control.

Start with your gyro gain at about 75% in HH mode and watch the heli in fast forward flight. Increase the gain until the tail begins to oscillate, then back the gain off till the oscillation stops.

You're done.

-----

Other things to look out for...

Make sure you only have a 1/4 turn twist in the belt drive. Any more can cause you grief.

The tail rotor control linkage needs to move easily and without a lot of effort.

Make sure the pulleys at the front and rear of the belt aren't slipping on their shafts.

Make sure the bearings in the tail rotor grip assemblies are good, not damaged, rusted, or otherwise not doing their job. This can make for all sorts of weird tail problems.

The 9650, thought not a blazing fast tail rotor servo, should be good enough to keep the tail of your 450 doing what you want it to do. A fast tail rotor servo is NOT needed to keep the tail stable.

What version of the 450 do you have (if you don't know for sure, post some good clear pictures), What motor is installed, how many teeth are on the pinion, and lastly, how good are the batteries you're using? You say the heli has been around since "years ago"...

You're using a six channel TX, so I'll assume you have a six channel RX. Your only choice for the servo gain lead is channel 5. Make certain that your 6103 RX is truly controlling the gyro gain out of channel 5 as you think it is.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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08-12-2012 06:20 AM  6 years agoPost 7
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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If you need a main gear for that old 450, I can probably scare one up for you.

Delayed Response Operator Not Engaged
AMA SECTION 336 = Good
Drones = EVIL

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08-12-2012 11:13 AM  6 years agoPost 8
AWittleWabbit

rrElite Veteran

O.C., CA

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Just a FYI,

If your are up to replacing servo gears, 9257 gears drop into the 9650. I'm flying the poor mans 9257 in one of my 450s now. There's a thread on here somewhere on how to do it.

Ive flew the 401/9650 combo for quite a while. I cant add anything else that hasn't already been covered.

Heli-itis sufferer.

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08-13-2012 02:32 AM  6 years agoPost 9
kyrotorhead

rrApprentice

Louisville, Ky.

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thanks for all the info, it will come up in a stable hover but when I increase collective, thats when it begins to spin. its like the gyro isn't keeping up as torque increases..

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08-13-2012 02:55 AM  6 years agoPost 10
AWittleWabbit

rrElite Veteran

O.C., CA

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Is anything slipping? Belt, belt drive pulley, anything? Do you have full travel on the tail rotor slider?

Heli-itis sufferer.

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08-13-2012 02:58 AM  6 years agoPost 11
AWittleWabbit

rrElite Veteran

O.C., CA

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By chance are you running at a really low head speed?

Heli-itis sufferer.

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08-15-2012 01:15 AM  6 years agoPost 12
kyrotorhead

rrApprentice

Louisville, Ky.

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thankyou for all the replys, I inspected the bird last night and did find the plastic gear on the rear tail rotor shaft was slipping badly, the shaft is nurled a bit to bite into the plastic gear and the gear was stripping and slipping. I have installed a new shaft and alumunium gear, I am looking for a main drive gear and new blades. This is the old 450 non ccpm without the metal main gear hub, gonna try to convert it to the new metal hub design. I will keep all posted of results. Thanks again!!

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08-15-2012 01:23 AM  6 years agoPost 13
AWittleWabbit

rrElite Veteran

O.C., CA

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Glad you found the problem. I had the xl (plastic frame ) many moons ago. Let me know if you can't find the metal pully upgrade, I probably have it somewhere.

Edit, I re-read your post, you got it already.

Heli-itis sufferer.

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08-15-2012 04:34 AM  6 years agoPost 14
jschenck

rrProfessor

La Vista, NE.

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don't forget to check the plastic gear on the front belt drive. That one is also known to start slipping on the shaft, happened to me. You could likely just glue it in place with a dab of JB weld or replace it with a metal gear drive set. I actually think that maybe the plastic gear puts less wear on the belt, maybe. I found that putting a bit of silicone oil on the belt helps a lot on making it last and run smoother.

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