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Home✈️Aircraft🚁Helicoptere-BladeBlade 130 › Everyone with Tail Vibes on spoolup
07-30-2012 03:24 AM  8 years ago
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spoolemup

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Everyone with Tail Vibes on spoolup
I wanted to start a thread to know how many Blade 130X owners have the tail vibration at spool-up. More importantly, how many pilots has taken the time to take off the tail blade grips and actually measured if their hub is drilled out correctly at 90 degrees true.

If you have taken the time to do this, please comment your results.

I purchased 3 tail output shafts, (1 in the heli, and 2 from LHS). NONE of the hubs were drilled 90' true. That's not a good record for HH, and I can't keep buying tail output shafts in the hopes that I get that 1 in a million that is strait. (pict)

The best I was able to get was like 88' which still causes a tiny buzz on spool-up but my in-flight high pitched whine is gone.

I think that high pitched whine is the same spool-up vibe. It’s just at a higher frequency. It looks like its causing peoples tail blades to fly off at the root. It’s also causing people tail gyros to go nuts and fail.

Another friend brought one today 7/29/12. As he spooled up, it had that same vibration and that high pitched whine in flight. I warned him not to fly it any longer until he addressed the issues with the tail hub and bearings. Well, he wanted to fly it. On his 1st flight, the tail blade broke off and the heli piroed into the ground.

Since I purchased 3 of them and all 3 are not drilled to center, BUT, they are drilled at different degrees of angle, there are some people out there that are lucky enough to get one close to 90' and its not destroying their heli's.

Please post your results..

90 degrees? yes or No
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07-30-2012 04:22 AM  8 years ago
turboomni

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East of the Equator

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I bought the 130x from the hobby shop only after he had a few extra parts in hand. Parts like Boca Bearings for the tail and tail shafts and metal A gear and boom support bracket for the tail pushrod.
I took the new heli home and tore it apart,,never flying it. I ran it up in my hands without the main blades as I knew the tail is the area of the major problems. The tail vibrated like crazy at a certain rpms.. When I closely examined the tail hub I saw that one blade grip was SLIGHTLY further away from the tail hub than the other. I found out one of the screws for the tail grips was not fully seated! I fully seated the little grip screw and ran it up. Much better. But not perfect. There was still a resonance at a certain rpm I did not like. Took it apart some more. The tail shaft from the factory was not true. I replaced the tail shaft and the tail bearings with Boca bearings. My new tail shaft was true,,luckily and then ran it up again without the main blades. Now we are getting somewhere. The vibrations happened in a much narrower [and maybe lower] rpm band and were not nearly as violent. Next place to explore is the tail blade balance. I have a small magnetic balancer for micro heli's that I bought for my now dead 4G6 Walkera. The tail blades were out of balance. I corrected that the best I could and then balanced the mains which were out of balance [the 3d ones] Ran it up and the maiden was very nice. 20,000+ rpm's on the tail you better know all is good before you fly it. Did have a problem as the C gear was starting to get wallowed out. Torque tube or shaft was starting to destoy the gear. I found out with the A and B gear you really need it to "float" That is the B gear. the torque tube or shaft has a longer flat on the B gear end than the other C gear end. The longer one is for the B gear. I did as many say[including Horizon}and that is to make sure the tail boom is fully forward. I believe this is wrong as the C gear will be wallowed out because the B gear has no travel and under load will push the TT rearward and destroying the C gear,. .My B gear has a 1mm or so play on the shaft to be able to travel up or down the torque shaft to find it's home. This way it will not push the torque shaft down the C gear and ruin it. I now have about 35 flights on the bird and she is as smooth as silk. Power is good and am on my first real set of gears still. This bird fly's better than my Trex V2 flybar heli by far. It was worth the effort. I am having a ball with this thing.
Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them
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07-30-2012 07:20 PM  8 years ago
spoolemup

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The tail shaft from the factory was not true.
That's a No for you.. = Manufactures Defect
All 3 of mine are off = Manufactures Defect
Two buddies at the field off = Manufactures Defect

I'm sure the numbers are WAY higher.. Its just a that most will not take the time to see what’s causing the vibrations..

You know.. It looks like the tail output shaft / hub is the MAIN cause of these vibes.. Even more than the slop in the bearings.

There are other heli's that have relatively low tolerance on their tail bearings but they have tail hubs that that are true and secured with a set screw. They don’t have these destructive vibrations.
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07-30-2012 07:39 PM  8 years ago
T-rexn8

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I too believe the main problem is the tail output shafts. All the ones I have are jacked also. Bearings, extra boom supports, tape on one of the tail blades, etc. just seem to mask the problem a little better.Xxtreme 800, TDR, 700E DFC, Mini Protos, T-450 DFC, Blade 130x, mcpx, nano
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07-30-2012 09:14 PM  8 years ago
Eury

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Dover NH USA

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Mine has the same vibe as well. I replaced the tail shaft with a new one from the LHS and it's still there. To the naked eye both of my hubs look to be 90deg, but if I hold it against a sheet of glass with a 90deg cut at the end it does not match up perfectly, so I'm thinking they are both off as well.Nick Crego

Citizen #0168
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07-31-2012 12:25 AM  8 years ago
magicmalik

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Bayonne, NJ

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Mine seems to be off too. My tail vibe was not too bad, but it seems to be getting worse the more I fly.. will try a new tail output shaft and hopefully bearings soon. The heli is a lot of fun, but since the tail is even worse now, I dont trust flying it anymore.http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=8826230
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07-31-2012 03:03 AM  8 years ago
spoolemup

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NJ - USA

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I don’t trust flying it anymore.
I hear ya bro..

I think that’s the real culprit of all the problems out there is the Tail Output Shaft (TOS).

1) MAD Spool up vibrations.
2) Hi Pitched Whine vibration in flight
3) Tail blades flying off.
4) Gyro having trying to cope with a massive vibration, then failing all together.

I'm positive that mine would have blown the tail gyro also, if I didn’t ground it until I found a better tail hub.

The real reason I think it's more of the hub than the bearings is this. During all my testing, I would change only one thing at a time. That way I could record the item that made the change. It would either get better / worse / or, no change at all.

When I tried much better tolerance bearing set, the vibration only got a little bit better (while using the stock TOS).

But, when I tried a little better TOS, the vibes where greatly reduced.

I believe that IF I could find true 90' TOS, ALL vibes would be gone completely.

Right now, my in-flight vibes are gone. (at least what I can hear). I think my gyro tape can dampen that micro frequency vibes I may have.

This little heli is allot of fun, I have to admit that.
Tried doing a Piro flip on Sunday and that little thing does a better job at it than my 600. I was quite surprised..
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07-31-2012 04:17 AM  8 years ago
T-rexn8

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If your 130X piro flips better than your 600, something may be wrong with your 600

Maybe just less fear factor??
Xxtreme 800, TDR, 700E DFC, Mini Protos, T-450 DFC, Blade 130x, mcpx, nano
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07-31-2012 01:50 PM  8 years ago
bigben1165

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grand rapids, michigan

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out of the box mine is pretty sweet. but i do notice a slight tail wag. i am going to tear it down soon.big ben - e550 fbl - DX6
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07-31-2012 06:19 PM  8 years ago
spoolemup

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bigben1165, out of the box mine is pretty sweet. but i do notice a slight tail wag. i am going to tear it down soon.
I'm not talking about that light gyro hunting in flight.. A fast tail movement, 1-2mm in flight which is mainly caused by slop in the linkages and tail servo horn and high gyro gain.

I'm talking about, as you spool it up, your vertical tail fin vibrates violently, then it "SEEMS" to settle down as you approach flying RPM.
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07-31-2012 06:35 PM  8 years ago
spoolemup

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T-rexn8, If your 130X piro flips better than your 600, something may be wrong with your 600
Maybe just less fear factor??
LOL.. Naa, I don’t think that's it.. My 600 is a converted 600N to Electric running on 8S. It's still a FB machine. On the 130X It feels like I'm not constantly fighting the Aileron / Elevator inputs to keep it level before the next rotation and flip.
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08-01-2012 01:59 AM  8 years ago
OICU812

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Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada

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BEST thing to anyone that notices such things is to CALL Horison Hobby directly to convey their findings on the NOT tru tr shafts and hubs, otherwise they never know it seems. They don't exactly have someone assigned to cruise this forum, so for sure 100% CALL in if you have this....Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...
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08-01-2012 02:41 AM  8 years ago
BobOD

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New York- USA

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Not that it's right, but how does this angle explain the symtoms?
Vibes? It doesn't produce imbalance.

OK, it looks sloppy....but does it explain the problems... to avoid chasing the wrong defect???
Team POP Secret
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08-01-2012 02:58 AM  8 years ago
T-rexn8

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Well if you watch the tracking of the tail blades you will see the blades out of track while the resonance is audible. Then after further throttle input the blades somehow start tracking correctly and the noise subsides.

IMHO the tail blades are not tracking correctly at lower speeds due to bad TR shafts, which causes high frequency vibrations.
Xxtreme 800, TDR, 700E DFC, Mini Protos, T-450 DFC, Blade 130x, mcpx, nano
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08-01-2012 03:29 AM  8 years ago
BobOD

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What you are likely seeing is one blade passes to the left, one to the right...and so on.
As it speeds up, they are blurring together and/or possibly flexing into a single plane.

This is not quite the same as tracking on a main rotor which is due to unequal lift on each blade.

Not trying to be argumentative here....just looking to understand the issue.
Team POP Secret
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08-01-2012 04:06 AM  8 years ago
spoolemup

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BobOD
As you are well aware, a main rotor blade flying out of track causes a shutter in the entire body of a helicopter..
Let’s take a T-Rex 450 Pro for example. I can hear when a blade it flying out of track.
I'm sure that it's disturbing the air flow across the leading blade. Making uneven eddies and currents that’s waiting to bash into the next blade that's coming around. It causes an in-efficiency in overall blade lift and a decrease in heli performance..

Now most 450 Pros I've seen are flying with somewhere in the neighborhood of 3500 RPM on the head.
Now, given a tail ratio of about 4.3:1 on the tail, that’s 3500 x 4.3 = 15,030 on the tail.

Now lets look at the little 130X. I have not gotten a chance to tack my bird,(if I can at all), but, the smaller the rotor disk on a collective pitch heli, is usually allot faster RPM.

Let’s just take a wild guess and say the 130X is flying at 100% throttle and flying at 4500 RPM. With a tail ratio of 5:1, that tail is speeding at (4500 x 5) = 22,500 RPM.

LET’S NOT EVEN MENTION, that it’s made up of parts that are 1/3 to 1/4 the size and strength of its larger cousin.

Flying that fast, that thing had better be true or it WILL FAIL.. NO QUESTION ABOUT IT...
This is not quite the same as tracking on a main rotor which is due to unequal lift on each blade.
Sorry but it's EXACTLY the same thing. It's just a vertical smaller rotor disk.
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08-01-2012 04:19 AM  8 years ago
spoolemup

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Then after further throttle input the blades somehow start tracking correctly and the noise subsides.
What you're seeing there is pure flexing of plastic. At a lower RPM, the plastic is strong enough to hold the blades to make them visibly out of track. As you speed up, the centrifugal forces increase, causing the plastic to bend and flex more into alignment.
I'd bet 100 bucks that if you had this same Tail Output shaft running out of alignment but you had metal tail blade grips with NO slop, and a strong Carbon Fiber or Metal tail blades, that harmonic would be from spool- till 100% throttle.

That's the reason people are throwing tail blades and what not.. That plastic tail blade holder just cant take that kind of forces along with micro banging left and right inside the grips.
Not for any long period of time anyway.
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08-01-2012 04:22 AM  8 years ago
OICU812

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Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada

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Never heard of metal tail blades but get where you're trying to go with things. There are many small things creating vibes on this heli. Basically the tail itself needs a ton of work....Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...
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08-01-2012 04:24 AM  8 years ago
turboomni

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East of the Equator

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Well in the my above post I had it made,,,no tail vibs with fancy bearings,,balancing tail blades ,,adjusting the main A and B gear.
I went to my LHS and a buddy wanted to see it spool up since I thought it was remedied. Well I gently spooled it up and geeze there was a little bit of the old vibration ,,,crap!!. I spooled it up again for him and it wasnt there,, It was minor and it fly's very well. It is very small and not destructive. Another guy at the shop showed up with his that he said had massive vibrations. He brought it out and it sure did! Very destructive tail vibrations. The guys tried new tail grips,,new tail blades,,,my balanced tail blades and nothing worked if I remember correctly. Still the same. During one of the violent spoolups a guy gently held the tail fin as it was vibrating like mad. With gentle pinch of his index finger and thumb ,,the vibrations in the tail went away. The tail fin was a blur before he touched it...interesting. Also interesting was one of the heli guru's there said ,,"different main blades!" I thought why would that make any difference? But when spooling it up with the different mains it did. It got through the vibration area much quicker. So at least balance the mains! I would guess they were more in balance. Anyway back to my minor problem,,a slight vibration on spoolup or down and is random. I thought about the guy in the club that held the tail fin and all resonance of the tail went away. My thought was the tail fin is tuned to a certain frequency because of it's length and plastic composition [elasticity ] At home I ran my heli up without the main blades ,,,with tail blades and got a rather minor vibration I was experiencing at the hobby shop. I saw the tail fin vibrate too. I added 4 pieces 2mm small carbon rods to the tail fin. This made it very rigid to side to side movement and I ran it up,,,and no resonance. I knew where it was in the rpm range but there was no amplification of the resonance from the tail fin. That is all for now. I will report my findings when I fly it tomorrow.
At this point I feel the vibration of the tail assembly is being amplified by the resonant frequency of the tail fin. With my tail fin and 2mm carbon rods CA,d in there does not seem to be a problem anymore. I will hold my breath as I thought I was in the clear before!!
Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them
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08-01-2012 04:36 AM  8 years ago
spoolemup

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NJ - USA

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Basically the tail itself needs a ton of work.
Save some money and purchase about 3 or 4 Tail output shafts. Put them on a T-Square or Something that you know to have a perfect 90 degree corner. Which ever one is closest to 90, put it on your heli. Try it out.. You'll be amazed. Send the others back to HH.

Oh, just a note on the guy at the LHS.. Skin and flesh makes a great vibration dampener.. To bad we can't fly with it on there. :-)
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