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HomeRC & Power✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterEngines Plugs Mufflers Fuel › Enya no.3 - what is it telling me?
07-29-2012 10:25 PM  8 years ago
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raybans

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Northern Ireland

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Enya no.3 - what is it telling me?
Hi,

this was the first plug seen by a brand new OS55 HZ-R. I am (trying to) follow Dr. Ben's break-in guide. I have a little over two gallons through the engine.

I have the OS power boost II pipe and am using coolpower 15%. The headspeed has not gone above 1,450 RPM (using CGY750 in rev_limit mode for the break-on phase).

The model (Fury 55) is well coated in nitro at the end of each tank and i can see unburnt fuel exiting the muffler. Needle settings are a little richer than factory.

So these external signs - needle settings - model coated in nitro - unburnt fuel exiting exhaust appear to tell me it is nicely rich. But this plug seems to indicate lean. Also, what is the rusty colored residue? Anyone have any idea?

Don't know for sure - but the glow element appears to have witness marks suggesting that the piston has contacted it. The small portion that sits on the bottom edge of the plug appears to be flattened.

Looking forward to your views.

Thank you.

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted"
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07-29-2012 10:44 PM  8 years ago
wrongler

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Brewerton, New York

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Did that plug look like that when you put it in? It looks to me like it has melted aluminum on it. Not sure if it was that way when you installed it. Maybe you can compare it with a new one.Bill Whittaker
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07-30-2012 02:07 AM  8 years ago
airdodger

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Johnston USA

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It looks very lean to me. Rust is usually what shows red, or fuel dye. The plug looks like it was subjected to detonation. If you don't seat the ring fast you can have a multitude of problems. Have no idea why you are trying to keep the headspeed down.

You run a richer needle setting and then limit the fuel by limiting the throttle. You can be turning close to the same headspeed with half throttle as with the throttle full opened.

A lower headspeed puts more load on the engine, just when you want less load. Lower headspeed limits the throttle opening so you get less fuel being pushed through. You want the throttle as wide open as possible, so as much fuel goes through as possible. The higher headspeed also puts less load on the engine than a low headspeed and higher pitch. It is akin to trying to go up a hill with too high a gear.

The ring needs the pressure from wide open throttle to help seat the ring. It is the gas pressure from behind the ring that pushes the ring to the liner wall. It also does not take two gallons to break in an engine today. Every ten minutes you run the engine the piston has made around a hundred eighty thousand strokes, how many times you think it takes to break an engine in?

You also should not keep the engine at a constant rpm, engines respond to varying throttle and loads better. Get a load on it like a loop and it will cool on the down side some.
Chris
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07-30-2012 06:36 PM  8 years ago
raybans

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Northern Ireland

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Wrongler
Did that plug look like that when you put it in? It looks to me like it has melted aluminum on it. Not sure if it was that way when you installed it. Maybe you can compare it with a new one.
No - it looked pristine.

airdodger

Re. your question on low head speed - I am at best a novice! Just trying to follow Dr.Ben's advice in his break-in guide. He calls for "no higher than 1500" for first few gallons. I did not load the engine at all during the first few gallons. I am only running 9 degrees max pitch at this point.

Disappointed that I've got it so badly wrong. I thought all the external signs pointed to a rich mixture. I only reduced the main needle to the point where I got half decent throttle response. It was so rich that when I increased throttle the engine almost cut out. So I am a bit baffled.

Experience does not come cheap!

What do you mean by "subject to detonation"?

Thanks guys for your helpful feedback.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted"
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07-30-2012 07:22 PM  8 years ago
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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If you think the piston has been whacking the plug, pull the head off and LOOK at the top of the piston. I seriously doubt, that, however. Your engine would not be happy for long were that the case.

Plug looks like it's been run pretty darn lean, the coil looks like it's seen better days.

How far open is your main needle valve now (number of turns/clicks). Where is you low-speed adjustment at this point?

-----

Also, you should disable/not use the Limiter until after you get the motor running correctly and the needles properly adjusted. This may be making you think everything is great, when in fact, you're slowly roasting your motor. Adjust and break-in first, limiters/governors second.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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07-30-2012 07:53 PM  8 years ago
BladeStrikes

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Shelby TWP,Mi

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+1 on the above comments..
The motor is for sure running lean..You shouldn't be running the gov for the first gallon and the headspeed needs to be around 1750RPM so its not working hard..At 1450RPM the headspeed is so low that the motor is working very hard to keep the heli in the air and when it works hard,it heats up fast which is very bad.

I always run the motor on the rich side with gov off at 1750-1800 ish RPM for the first gallon.After that,bump the headspeed up to 2000RPM with the gov on and start tunning but fly mild for 6 or so more tanks.Let it rip and beat the hell out of it after that..
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07-30-2012 09:21 PM  8 years ago
raybans

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Northern Ireland

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BladeStrikes - just to clarify - although i was using the CGY750 in limiter mode i have standard throttle curves in the Tx. At stick hover position the throttle curve is at 35 percent. So the limiter is really just for fail safe...

Point taken on the "low head speed = high load on engine". Thanks for that.

dkshema,

needles -

High 1.75.
Mid 2.2.
Low 0.5.

Started with the high at 2.2 or so but there was just no throttle response.

I found a version of Dr. Ben's break-in guide here which includes a para of Dominik Haegele's advice.

https://rc.runryder.com/gallery/277...ng-break-in.pdf

I followed "Dominik Haegele’s tuning tips" where he says about running idle for one tank - maybe this is where i was running lean and did the damage to the plug. Just thinking...
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07-30-2012 09:48 PM  8 years ago
airdodger

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Johnston USA

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I went and read the tips, don't understand the idle a tank, besides it doing nothing productive, the crosshatch is wearing very quickly, but not seating the ring. The ring is just riding over and not being worn by the crosshatch. Sounds like a good thing not to do. So no clue what they are trying to do. I think you are an example of why you can't post hover a 1/2 to a gallon of fuel. You don't want the engine turning 16-17000 at 35 percent throttle, if in fact your curve corresponds, makes no sense.

What is stated about the engine asking to be leaned if you are close is good info but takes time to aquire the knack. It will get a little stronger over time after a few gallons, if you did everything right and not a hint of lean, or overly rich or loaded too much. You will always make more power with the most fuel you can combust properly. So the more open you can run the needles the more power produced. Lean does not make more power, the correct mixture makes the most power.
Chris
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07-30-2012 10:01 PM  8 years ago
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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Until you get the motor tuned and running well, disable the limiter. Curves or not, you'll never get it tuned properly as long as the limiter (or governor) is involved.

Try an OS #8 instead of the Enya 3.

Go back to original factory settings. I'm not sure what you mean by "low" is set at "0.5".

The "low" setting is a cam that rocks the brass plate back and forth. As a cam, it is good for no more than a 1/4 turn either direction. It's not a needle that screws in and out for adjustment. Factory setting has the slot vertical, parallel to a line running down the centerline of the venturi. If you go more than a 1/4 turn either way, you'll end up reversing the sense of the adjustment.

Odd that with 15% fuel your needle settings are where they are, and yet the motor, from the glow-plug viewpoint, looks lean. At those settings with 15% fuel, the motor should be slobbery rich, almost to the point where it will develop no power at all, anywhere.

15% fuel will end up being run leaner than 30% fuel.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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07-30-2012 11:03 PM  8 years ago
raybans

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Northern Ireland

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Dkshema

Poor choice of words from me; meant 0.5 as in centre. The slot is vertical I.e. factory set.

Ok - will disable limiter.

Thanks.
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07-31-2012 03:19 AM  8 years ago
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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Darn Ray, that thing got lean as hell at some point.

I fully agree with all mention of turning off the limiter for the time being. You need to be able to hear what the engine is doing. The really insidious thing about a governor or limiter is that it will pull as much throttle at as needed to hold desired headspeed if headspeed starts to increase from a lean run. As it does so, it gets the carb into the 1/4 to 1/3 throttle range, which is typically leaner than 1/2 throttle on up. Thus the motor goes leaner still. If your ear is unaccustomed to hearing when this starts to go south, the motor can get extremely lean before it starts to cry uncle. I do not think there is anything wrong with running a governor or limiter during break-in per se, but you need to know exact to listen for and even smell in the exhaust to tell if it is going lean, because you can't rely on an increase in headspeed.

There is nothing magic about 1500 rpm for the first part of the break in. If just gives a noce and easy headspeed that will put the carb squarely near the 50% open point so that you can tell what the midrange is actually doing (but you still tune an OS from the high speed down). There is no predisposition for a lean run at the 1500 rpm range. If the settings are correct, the engine will burble happily along. More experienced tuners can safely break in at higher RPM. As is usual for advice that I give, it is conservative. Running significantly higher headspeed for break-in leaves a little less room for error if things start to go bad. I have seen guys totally ruin an engine in less than a minute when the motor got lean and the headspeed went through the roof.

But I digress..... Let me know if it doensn't behave Ray. I know you have been trying really hard to take care of that expensive engine.

Bem Minor
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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07-31-2012 04:52 AM  8 years ago
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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If nothing else at this point, you do get an A+ for posting some very crisp, clear pictures of the plug. I don't know what camera you used, but dang, those are excellent pics.

If you are concerned that you maybe have damaged the motor, you can inspect the piston, ring, and cylinder, looking for score marks and galling of the metal on the piston skirt. For starters, you could remove the muffler and take a look inside the exhaust port at the visible portion of the piston skirt and ring as you turn the motor over. If you see bad scoring of the piston skirt, things have not gone well with the break in. If it still looks as a piston and ring should, there is a good chance all is OK. If you're more adventuresome, you can pop the cylinder head off for a good look, or if you're really adventurous, take the motor apart for a good close look at the guts.

Please tell me you didn't use any RTV or other form of sealant between the muffler and exhaust port on the motor. It's unnecessary and can cause more grief than it's worth. Clean surfaces, tight bolts using a wrench that fits the cap screw heads well. That's all you need there. Since you're running one of the DRS motors, you don't need muffler pressure into the tank. If you haven't done so already, remove the pressure fitting from the muffler and replace it with a bolt with the appropriate thread. Tighten well. This will keep exhaust glop where it should be and make for a cleaner running machine all around.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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07-31-2012 01:36 PM  8 years ago
Four Stroker

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Atlanta

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If it were any other brand of glow plug, the coil would not still be in there for you to take a picture of.
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07-31-2012 11:01 PM  8 years ago
raybans

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Northern Ireland

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I was quite encouraged when i stripped down the engine - piston is not as 'brown' as some others that i have seen on RR! Also, the piston sleeve came out easily.

The rust is a little troubling though - you can see it on the crankshaft photo.

Any ideas why the conrod won't slide of the crankpin?

Whats the verdict on the photo's then?!

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07-31-2012 11:24 PM  8 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Yeah the corrosion looks like the culprit on the plug to me. Basically, corrosion grinds off the affected mating parts and goes through the circuit into the combustion chamber. That's probably how you're getting that deposition on the plug...

It could be coming off any of the rusting parts down there, the bearings most likely.

Looks like the engine was stored in a high humidity environment for a while and wasn't fully pickled and/or moisture built up inside. When I lived in TX, this was a really common form of damage on some of my older engines I didn't store properly.

You probably have to pull the sleeve out before you can get that conrod off the bottom end...

LS
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08-01-2012 01:12 AM  8 years ago
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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Ray,

The difficulty you are having with getting the rod over the pin is usually caused by the top of the rod not sliding off to one side of the wrist pin. Stick your finger up into the underside of the piston and make sure the rod will slide on the wrist pin. When you get if moved to the side of the wrist pin, it works best to jiggle the piston inside the crankcase so it will fall off the crank pin. It never, ever works to try to push it off. When all is free, it more or less will fall off the crank pin. though the corrosion on the crank is not terrible, I would use a little preservative oil post flight. I don't think there is anywhere in Ireland that isn't damp and humid.

Ben Minor
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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08-01-2012 01:54 AM  8 years ago
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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The con rod is probably having some difficulty sliding on the wrist pin due to small amounts of corrosion on the pin. If you can't get your finger in there to slide the con rod toward the rear of the crankcase, I've used an allen wrench as a hook to pull on the rod. Do it carefully, you'll be OK>

Note that when you put it all back together, the con rod does have a front and back.

The picture above shows your con rod, the bottom end is on the left, and the top end is on the right. Note that the bronze bushing in the bottom end has a chamfer. This is the FRONT of the rod, it goes toward the big crank web and provides clearance for the small radius associated with where the rod journal connects to the crank web.

Also, you insert the whole piston/ring/rod/wrist pin assembly into the motor and hook the rod on the crank journal, then install the cylinder.

Note that the piston has a small pin located in the ring gap (will be located at about the 1 o'clock position with the front of the crankshaft being the 12 o'clock position. Make sure the ring gap is over that pin, then carefully slide the cylinder onto the piston and over the ring (hold the piston at top dead center with a finger poked through the backplate opening). The bottom end of the cylinder is chamfered and will fairly easily slide onto the piston and over the ring. Line the notch in the top of the cylinder up with the pin in the top of the crankcase then carefully slide the cylinder in place.

Tighten the head bolts lightly to seat the head, then pick a favorite bolt and begin tightening the head bolts in a diametric pattern. Don't cinch it down all at once, make two or three circuits around the head till all is good and tight.

-----

Unless there are some nasty surprises on the exhaust side of the piston (not visible in your pictures) the motor looks to be quite happy inside.

-----

Does the fuel you're using have castor oil as an ingredient?
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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08-01-2012 04:12 AM  8 years ago
raybans

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Northern Ireland

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Thanks to Dr. Ben and dkshema - got the conrod off. You correctly diagnosed the problem.

Ok - some more pictures. Can you please comment on,

1. The mark on the piston ring. The ring is all black except this portion. What are these marks telling me?

2. The scratch marks on the piston skirt and piston liner - are these what you all mean by scratches?

3. When we talk about an engine getting "cooked" and running "lean" - this suggests major over heating, right? But, although the glow plug suggested this, the engine internals don't appear scorched or burned? But perhaps you will tell me otherwise.

Thanks again for all your help and advice.

Ps - pardon the "two-part" piston ring - OS gave it to me to test!!

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08-01-2012 04:45 AM  8 years ago
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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Ray,

The vertical scratches were caused by some debris passing through the engine. It's not bad. Put the thing back together after you clean up the crank, and let's try again to needle it correctly.

Ben
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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08-01-2012 05:39 AM  8 years ago
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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How to keep a ring in one piece when installing a new one:

http://www.mecoa.com/faq/rings/install/install.htm

Reverse the procedure, you can also remove a ring in one piece without breaking it.

Overall your motor's insides look very good, only a few very minor scratches on the piston. Nothing to worry about.

This picture:

http://www.mecoa.com/faq/piston/scored/scored.htm

shows what a piston from a motor that's been "cooked" by running lean will end up looking like. With a big smear like that on the side of the piston, you'll also find a matching smear inside the bore of the liner.

Those vertical scratches could be from small bits of dirt ingested by the motor while running, or possibly some small bits and pieces leftover from the manufacturing process. It's not all that uncommon to have small bits of gunk in a new engine...not good, and some people have made it a practice to dismantle and flush a new motor to make sure it's ready to go.

You DO use a fuel filter, I hope.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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