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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterTandem Rotor Craft Chinook - Osprey › Hirobo Vertol 2004/2005 Manual error watch out!
07-29-2012 05:35 AM  8 years ago
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bellah1w

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Perth Western Australia

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Hirobo Vertol 2004/2005 Manual error watch out!
I would be careful and get a new manual from Hirobo if you are building a kit that is not current and is old stock ( I still refer to version 2 not the original mechanical version) as the manual I had from 2004/5 has errors and is not as well written as the one I bought in 2010!

I have just converted my vertol to electric but I had it flying very badly years ago on nitro, so bad I thought it just too much hassle.

I have rebuilt it and am using Futaba s9072sb servos now which are s bus servos and I have had a year of experience with flybarless so I am a bit sharper these days.

I used s bus servos as you can program the neutral using the programming box so centring has been very easy and has been a breeze.

These are standard size Futaba servos and I have triple checked all the rod sizes for the RE Rods, the 10 mm servo arm length and placement direction of the servos in the frame. The servo arm on the servo is really out of alignment to get the pushrods and bell cranks at right angles as displayed in the manual.

I have measured several times and overlaid the pushrods several times to the manual but I knew the manual was not correct.

The problem is that because the servo arm is not at the same angle on the servo compared to the RP and RA servo, so it causes slightly differential mechanical throw on the ccpm. It is most noticeable at both ends of the swash plate travel so the swash plate moves up quicker at the back at the beginning and end of the travel range.

Check the angle of the top servo arm it is forward too much...

I picked up a new kit for $1,200 during 2010 in a liquidation sale for spares so I decided to compare the two manuals which were pretty much the same (except the 2010 manual has a lot more step tips as the 2004 manual is a bit vague in parts) except for step 21-2! The RE Rod is now 100 mm not 110 and Guess what the geometry works now on my model!

Not having the skills back in 2005 when I first tried it the CCPM was really inconsistent due to the differing mechanical throw making it fly like a dog. Especially the elevator as any input requiring the rear RE servo would kick the swash up out of sync with the other two servos. I wonder if this is why it used to pitch up so bad overtime I touched the elevator?

Check out the two manual excerpts in the files section of my gallery.
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07-29-2012 01:05 PM  8 years ago
doorman

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Sherwood, Arkansas

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No Doubt!!!
No doubt that you have found a major problem... the new 100mm rod will let you get the servo arms back to the original 90 degrees.. and it will definetly let the re be set as is needed..
These things are tricky enough when they are right, but completly flyable..
Mine has been just setting on the shelf for the last 2+ years, with the body on, and I am sure it would take me awhile to get back on the flying... at this point in time there are 2 guys here in the USA that I know of that have thier machines dialed in, and are using an added stabi system inline with the mixer unit, to replace the elev gyro in the mixer..this makes for a very STABLE machine and seems to be working very well for both of them... so maybe one of them might jump in here and get you some of the latest data...
Thanks and have fun with it, take everything very slowly and when you adjust something on the front head, you will most likely need to do the rear head also!!!!
One tip for you on with the electric conversion, is at the mast lock on the front shaft... make sure that it is seated properly and the set screw tight enough to leave a mark on the shaft.. move the collar and put a small flat or dimple on the ms so that the new set screw will seat in it.. now throw both of the old set screws away and use (1) new one with loctite and set it in the hole and line up with your flat and tighten...and you are finished..and yes there is only the one set screw going back in.. this will stop you from loosing main gears.. I will let Sandy tell you about the top bolts on the masts!!!!!

Stan
AMA 2918-Team Spin Blades,,Castle Creations, Unique Aircraft
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07-29-2012 01:39 PM  8 years ago
bellah1w

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Perth Western Australia

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I can't wait to fly now I have what was the demon in the system sorted.

I actually converted mine using the SDX electric conv kit and a tiny bit of machining to get the electric mount to fit.

The end result is that I still have the clutch in the system so it will be interesting whether this reduces the instantaneous torque issue that was tripping gears?

Only two guys in the USA out of 450 mill...damn how about one guy in Aussie!
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07-30-2012 09:48 PM  8 years ago
Phoenix NOTAR

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Tallahassee, Florida USA

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My 2004 CH47 Chinook manual (page 39) clearly shows the RE-2 rod as 100mm long, and more importantly shows the 90 degree geometry that is required for all of the servo / bellcrank / rod interfaces. All of the instructions in my manual show this important 90 degree geometry for all of the CCPM rod connections. It is rarely if ever a good idea to have differential in just one of the CCPM connections.

I do not know how bad yours used to fly in its nitro form with this linkage error, but I can tell you that fixing this will NOT eliminate the tail drop when transitioning to a hover from (fast) forward flight. This behavior is not from a mechanical issue, but I believe is from losing lift on the rear rotor during this transition. An auxiliary SAS has helped this issue quite a bit, but has not eliminated it.

As Stan noted, with a heavy, high torque electric conversion on these mechanics, I have found a very weak link to be the 3mm cap screw that secures the rotor head(s) to the main mast(s). I have had multiple failures of these bolts in flight, all resulting in major damage.

Sandy

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07-31-2012 04:51 AM  8 years ago
bellah1w

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Perth Western Australia

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Hi Sandy

Did you notice I have the Ch46 (Vertol Phrog)not the Ch47.

I have the page from the 2004 manual in my gallery and its different to your 2004 manual but is the same as my 2010 manual (even though the manual still says 2004).

I also understand Hirobo always put 2004 on the manuals as this is when the model is released as even the new manual also has 2004 on it!

I will make sure I often replace and inspect the Jesus bolt on your advice on the masts.

Do you think keeping the clutch in place may reduce that instant torque load on the rotorhead?

Did you guys keep the clutch in place?

On the point of how it flew it was very much like a squirell in the hover and in forward flight as soon as I touched the collective to flare it jumped up like a crazy horse. It was so bad I was never game to try a circuit and only did a quick transition to FFF and a flare and landing in a straight line. I gave up and put it aside for 6 years!

I have so much more CCPM epxperience now and have been practisiong the nose up on my fixed wings by having a quick 15% deg of flap extend and using the flaps without elveator mixing so the the plane noses up.

I really want to fly a circuit with the Ch 46 this time.

I love that all this chatter has got the tandem topics back alive again!

One rotar mast is never enough!

Cheers
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07-31-2012 10:58 AM  8 years ago
hootowl

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Garnet Valley, Pa.

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How about this in the Hirobo EVO 50 manual..

Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep
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07-31-2012 01:09 PM  8 years ago
bellah1w

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Perth Western Australia

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That is a classic!
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07-31-2012 07:32 PM  8 years ago
Phoenix NOTAR

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Tallahassee, Florida USA

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Regarding the question about clutches on these Hirobo Tandem models;
Of the three of us that have flown together in the USA that have converted to electric. 2 have clutches, and one does not. There is also a 4th “no clutch” electric model I have seen flying around, and that is by Turbinator, who also has manufactured electric motor mounts for these tandems. (Sorry about forgetting to mention you Mike).

Assuming that the clutch does not slip in flight (mine does not get warm, so I assume it is not slipping), it will not help with the instant torque available with the electric motor when flying. It may help during spool-up, but if so, it has not prevented any of my main mast bolt breaking issues.

Sandy

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07-31-2012 11:53 PM  8 years ago
bellah1w

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Perth Western Australia

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Your practical experience is awesome on these models.

How often would you refresh your mast bolts to save failures?
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08-01-2012 12:03 AM  8 years ago
Phoenix NOTAR

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I try not let the bolts on mine go more then 10 flights.

Sandy
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08-01-2012 12:28 AM  8 years ago
bellah1w

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Perth Western Australia

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I wonder whether you can get better quality 3mm bolts than the ones from the hobby store?

I might make some enquiries as to whether you can get better grade high tensile strength bolts from the aircraft industry. I have a buddy that is an aircraft engineer in the engine section at Qantas.

anyhow .. there is my clutch mount and engine mount.

I just used the Hirobo SDX kit and machined the sdx mount flat to bolt onto the top of the IC engine mount.

Pretty neat and easy.

You could also machine the sides off the sdx mount to go in the side frames but the bolt holes did not line up and I would had to drill into the side frames.
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08-01-2012 12:59 AM  8 years ago
payne1967

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uk

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could you try the shuttle 3mm hardened drag bolts in the mainshaft to cure the breaking problem?
or are they to long at 25mm?
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08-01-2012 01:09 AM  8 years ago
Phoenix NOTAR

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Tallahassee, Florida USA

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These bolts do not go through the mainshaft like conventional helicopter. They hold the head on from the top and thread into the end of the mainshafts. They are 3mm cap screws with a length of 10mm.

Better quality bolts is a good option, but I am not sure how many 3mm bolts there are in a commercial jet engine. I tried titanium bolts, but the ones I got bent to easily.

Sandy
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08-03-2012 03:39 AM  8 years ago
bellah1w

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Perth Western Australia

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I have located a supplier for the following aviation grade high shear strength bolt:

http://www.bolt.com.au

Part number SHCSM310

10MM length 3MM Metric Socket Head Cap Screw

Grade 12.9 Tensile Strength

12900Mpa

I don't know what the standard tensile strength of your local hobby shop is but these are the highest grade.

Only 33c each.

If anyone has trouble getting them I am happy to send some by post.
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09-06-2012 08:05 PM  8 years ago
Rotodingo

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Garches, France

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Hello,

To the ones using a flybarless unit on Hirobo CH-47 or CH-46, did you put it between the RX and the Hirobo mixing unit? If yes, i suppose you modified to 0 the gyro gains on the Hirobo unit? Did you do it for the 3 axis or just 1 or 2?

Thanks
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09-07-2012 01:56 AM  8 years ago
Phoenix NOTAR

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Tallahassee, Florida USA

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Rotodingo,

Yes, the stabilization unit goes between the Tandem mixer controller box and the receiver.

I was only able to get an older Skookum SK360 unit to work, as some of the newer 3 axis units need to actually see the servos directly (without the tandem mixer in between). So, I only have aileron and elevator going through the Skookum unit. Yaw is very stabile on these helis, and the Hirobo tandem mixer does a fine job with yaw (rudder) control

The Gyro "hi" and "lo" in the mixer for both elevator and aileron should be set to "0" (total 4 places), as you guessed. (although I did have both systems for elevator active in my CH47 for a while, so it did work OK for me.

Sandy
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09-07-2012 03:48 PM  8 years ago
Rotodingo

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Garches, France

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Thanks for you answer. It helps a lot. What type of flybarless units did you try with no succes about the servo seeing problem you mentionned? I was thinking to a Futaba CGY-750 or the JR Tags.

If they dont work i may try single axis gyros (2 Futaba GY-520 by example). I have a Futaba T10 so i can input gains on two gyros without problem as far as i see it.

By watching the top of the rotorheads i wonder if it would be possible to use 4mm dia screws instead of 3mm.Looks like their is some room for a bigger headscrew on the plastic main hub. What do you think? The 8mm shaft should be possible to drill and tap again.
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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterTandem Rotor Craft Chinook - Osprey › Hirobo Vertol 2004/2005 Manual error watch out!
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