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Home✈️Aircraft🚁Helicoptere-Henseleit TDR MP-XLE MP-E › Setup tips for speed flying
07-26-2012 06:47 PM  8 years ago
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F1 Rocket

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Melbourne, Florida USA

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Setup tips for speed flying
Hopefully others will post what they have learned.

Here’s what I have found on my TDR:
• Use stable main blades that are not more than 225g. Heavier blades will wear out the main grip thrust bearings quickly when running very high head speed. Radix V2, FBL, and Rail are my favorites.
• 95mm tail blades and greatly reduced tail gain works best. Reduce the tail gain as needed to eliminate any tail wag at speed. Also, be carefull when switching to a flight mode that has a higher tail gain setting. Let the machine slow down before you switch.
• HH or Rate mode? I have tried both and can't really tell much difference at speed. In theory rate mode has advantages but you have to trim the tail so the machine flys straight. In practice once the machine is up to speed the tail blades are pretty much running close to zero pitch when in HH mode so there is not much difference.
• A forward CG helps a lot.
• Gear to run the max head speed you want at 100% PWM on the ESC
• More than 15 deg of collective is a waste. It is better to turn the head faster.
• Only the best packs will hold head speed at full collective through the course. Practice with your old ones but save your best for the actual run. If you sense the head speed is decaying a lot back off the collective a bit so the head stays spun up. The worse pitch ups I have had followed a good bog in head speed.
• You need plenty of cyclic travel for the FBL system to work at high speed. I had originally limited this to 8 deg on the HC3-X FBL system. I now run 11 deg with better results.
• The TDR is limited in how high you can run the swashplate and still maintain enough cyclic. On my speed setup I lowered the swash 2mm from the factory spec at mid stick and increased the length of the swash too blade grip links to set the top end positive pitch I wanted. This limits the amount negative pitch but this does not matter unless you fly speed runs inverted
• Good servos are a must but IMO a tight gear train is more important than all out speed or torque. My TDR has 451’s running at 6v and they have not been a problem.
• Keep the canopy holes to a minium. I have a small opening (like the one shown in the TDR manual) on the bottom of the nose. My testing has shown I can get 4 good runs through the course on a 90F day before the ESC gets too hot for comfort. After the first couple of passes the pack has lost it’s edge so there is liitle point in running longer.
• TX expo is your friend especially on elevator. I also run a lower overal rate on everthing.
• Smooth equals fast. IMO more speed can be gain in practicing then by bolting on more power.

Hopefully this info helps. Please add what you have found. Speed flying is big fun
Danny - DemonAero Support Team
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07-26-2012 08:01 PM  8 years ago
T-rexn8

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CoLoRaDo

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Great info right here! Thank you.Xxtreme 800, TDR, 700E DFC, Mini Protos, T-450 DFC, Blade 130x, mcpx, nano
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07-27-2012 12:14 AM  8 years ago
mrex

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Pearland, TX

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Well done F1
Very well described
Thanks
Good luck at the speed run
ill be watching
M
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07-27-2012 08:43 PM  8 years ago
Rchflyer

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Ashburn, VA

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Thanks Danny for the info....

additional question for you????

What is better, more head speed and less pitch..
(i.e.: 11 degrees @ 2000) or....

More pitch and less head speed...
(i.e.: 13 degres @ 19000)...

Yes us ice guy have limits, but also a limiting factor for all ...but the helicommand makes it go straight.

Thanks,
Dennis
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07-28-2012 01:28 AM  8 years ago
F1 Rocket

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Melbourne, Florida USA

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What is better, more head speed and less pitch..
(i.e.: 11 degrees @ 2000) or....
More pitch and less head speed...
(i.e.: 13 degres @ 19000)...
As with many things the answer is going to be somewhere in the middle. I suggest setting up with 12 deg and see what you can turn that at. Gearing with an ICE is more critical. Ideally you want to turn just a bit higher than the peak torque RPM. Then once loaded the engine should be at the ideal RPM.

BTW, since this is the TDR forum I assume you have somehow managed to stuff a DA-55 into a TDR. THAT is something I can't wait to see
Danny - DemonAero Support Team
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07-28-2012 02:56 AM  8 years ago
Santiago P

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Dayton

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Dennis,

With ICEs the RPM sweetspot is where the engine, pipe, and gearing puts you at a max HP.

Then you throw all the pitch that can stand without falling off that peak.

You can set the governor slightly higher so when is loaded the RPM falls on the peak.

(more or less what Danny said)

Some governors you can set so that pass certain throttle position can command the engine wide open (GV1, GY701)

I also want to see the DA55 stuffed in a TDR, with really big truck tires, that would be the definition of a redneck TDR.

Santiago
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07-28-2012 02:46 PM  8 years ago
F1 Rocket

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Melbourne, Florida USA

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I also want to see the DA55 stuffed in a TDR, with really big truck tires, that would be the definition of a redneck TDR.
Don't forget the gun rack on the tail boom

Really getting OT here so back to speed tips
Danny - DemonAero Support Team
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07-28-2012 06:14 PM  8 years ago
Rchflyer

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Ashburn, VA

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OOPS...TDR forum (darn pasted links)

But still good information.

What I do find funny is TDR guys trying to go fast ...any faster and you won't be able to see it or clock it.

We now return to your regularly scheduled posting, bring on the speed tips.
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08-10-2012 03:31 PM  8 years ago
QueeQueg

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West Texas

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Hey F1,

I was just wondering about the thought that the TR blades are at near zero pitch once the heli is up to speed. How did you determine this or are you assuming it. The reason I ask is I'm planning out an unlimited heli and was wondering how much power the tail actually uses during high speed FF flight to decide on a power system.

What I can tell you from personal experience is that I snapped a TR belt during a drag race right after I crossed the finish line at pretty much full speed. The heli immediately started to piro like a blur and being only 4 or 5 feet off the deck at probably 90mph+ there was no saving it. Had there been very little anti torque compensation needed at speed it should have stayed fairly straight and just been a matter of doing a forced auto which I've had to do more often than I care to admit when I first started playing with electric dragsters.

Just picking your brain for some help in developing a purpose built speedster. I have an idea how to test this but if you can elaborate It might save me some trouble.

Q
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08-10-2012 06:49 PM  8 years ago
Santiago P

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Dayton

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Tail rotor takes about 25 to 30% of the power.
What I do find funny is TDR guys trying to go fast ...any faster and you won't be able to see it or clock it.
NOT FAST ENOUGH.
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08-10-2012 08:03 PM  8 years ago
F1 Rocket

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Melbourne, Florida USA

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I was just wondering about the thought that the TR blades are at near zero pitch once the heli is up to speed. How did you determine this or are you assuming it. The reason I ask is I'm planning out an unlimited heli and was wondering how much power the tail actually uses during high speed FF flight to decide on a power system.
When I was running in rate mode I adjusted the tail pitch for straight flight using a revo mix in the TX. Once I had this set for very high speed flight the tail blades did not have much pitch in them, even at full collective. This will vary from machine to machine and anything that improves the weathervane effect (solid fins, aft fuselage area) will reduce the amount of anti-torque power required from the tail. Also the spinning tail disk adds effective tail fin area.

In my case I was setting for very high speed. Just slowing the machine required adding right tail to keep the machine from yawing. In the end I decided that rate mode was more work than needed and went back to running in HH mode. Lazy I guess but so be itļ

In the case of your drag racer you were most likely at very high collective (torque) on the main rotor at a relatively (compared to a TDR running full tilt with a long run in) slow air speed. I can see where having the tail suddenly stop would cause a major yaw which would scrub off speed quickly, resulting in a un-controllable piro.
Danny - DemonAero Support Team
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08-10-2012 08:17 PM  8 years ago
wrongler

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Brewerton, New York

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Good luck to the guys at IRCHA that run the speed runs. Anxious to see the posted speeds.Bill Whittaker
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08-10-2012 08:20 PM  8 years ago
T-rexn8

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CoLoRaDo

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Wish I could be there with you guys!

Can't wait to see who wins…. TDR or Diablo

Regards,

Nate
Xxtreme 800, TDR, 700E DFC, Mini Protos, T-450 DFC, Blade 130x, mcpx, nano
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08-10-2012 10:39 PM  8 years ago
marcosp

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Buenos Aires, Argentina

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I am on both camps, but am competing with the TDR and Jan is going to be there, so, 2012 I am all for Henseleit!!!
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08-10-2012 10:45 PM  8 years ago
QueeQueg

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West Texas

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Thanks guys for your opinions. I'm gonna put a wattmeter on my eheli and see how much power the TR can pull at full deflection on the ground. I'll take off the mains and run it like that.

I'm thinking about running a separate motor for the TR so I can put all the power to the main rotor disc and not melt my spur gears.
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08-10-2012 11:00 PM  8 years ago
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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Cool thread. Thanks Danny.Avant RC
Scorpion Power Systems
Thunder Power RC
Kontronik Drives
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08-12-2012 01:17 AM  8 years ago
Chuck Bole

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Tulsa Ok. U.S.A.

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You'll be surprised how much the tail rotor takes amp wise.
My E9 with the seperate tail motor drew over 80 amps..

chuck
Team Synergy Field Representative / Rail Blades / Scorpion Power Systems / HeliLids
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08-12-2012 02:13 PM  8 years ago
Qrrambero

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San Francisco / Bay Area

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I will be there. Please let me know what day is going to be. I will be wearing my TDR T shirt that day. Ae
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08-13-2012 04:07 AM  8 years ago
marcosp

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Buenos Aires, Argentina

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Speed Cup is Friday afternoon, though heli check is before mid day. Everything in site 3.
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08-13-2012 03:09 PM  8 years ago
Darren Lee

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Woodstock, GA

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Gear to run the max head speed you want at 100% PWM on the ESC
Is it best to turn off gov and run 100% throttle curve? I'm thinking I could squeeze out more headspeed at a lower gearing by doing this. Since the run is only going to last 2-3 mins, the pack voltage sag shouldn't be an issue.
Team Synergy / Rail Blades / Morgan Fuel
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Home✈️Aircraft🚁Helicoptere-Henseleit TDR MP-XLE MP-E › Setup tips for speed flying
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