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HomeRC & Power✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsTT GT5 › Fun times with a GT5 on my TT X50
07-31-2012 03:31 PM  9 years ago
gwright

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Champaign Il

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My theory is that the gt5 accounts for the servo speed when computing it's corrective action, hence the problem if you have it set too quickly,...i.e., it is out of phase . I'm thinking that this must be assuming some basic delay in response due to aerodynamics, so if you're machine is slow to respond,..i.e. heavy blades, soft dampening, very low rotor rpm, you also could see an out of phase condition. Like Chago, I now run "conservative" servo speed settings. When going very low on the rpms (1100~1200 on a 700mm machine) I saw some of the same problems I did at high rpms with the servo speed set too fast, so I told the gt5 they are slower and corrected the issue.

As a side note,.. I know many are going very low rpm now (1000 to 1200) by using a 6-cell pack instead of 12-cells. It's a kewl thing to watch, and also to do. I've went a bit different and have setups that will go real low (1180 on one of them now), but still retain a high rpm fast flight mode(Still maybe considered low by some at 1850 but goes like heck). I'm still using the full 12-cell/5000mah setup, and dropped rpms below the range where the head would wobble. I've found you have to compromise on lots of things and my GT5 setup is not perfect for either but very very good for both. It's very enlightening to setup something with such a low rpm as it magnifies any little problem. Spin it up to 2K or more and all the fbl units are simply trivial to setup and make them work. I guess the point is that if you think you have everything "perfect" then drastically drop the rpms, and you'll probably want to tweak some stuff which will give you a much better understanding of exactly what affects what.
Gary Wright
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07-31-2012 04:10 PM  9 years ago
raptor50sefbl

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mosta,Malta

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gt5 on raptor 50 titan se v2 Fbl
well my raptor is nitro,toto told me to connect the pitch servo directly to the reciever because the raptor is not ccpm and now the swash is leveling perfectly on the bench and when i apply pitch the other servos dont work,now could someone tell me axactly the servo speeds and frequency how to be on the gt5 i have s9254 for tail, s3152 for aileron and elevator and bls452 for pitch
Raptor 50 TiTan Se FBL ,EDGE SE Blades,OS Max 55HZ + OS PowerBoost Muffler 55 II,Optifuel 20SLV
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07-31-2012 04:12 PM  9 years ago
raptor50sefbl

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so you will get me right ,before when the pitch servo was connected to the gt5 sometimes and i repeat sometimes when i apply pitch works a bit with it aswell the elevator or aileron servo ,now with the pitch servo direct to the reciever it is working fineRaptor 50 TiTan Se FBL ,EDGE SE Blades,OS Max 55HZ + OS PowerBoost Muffler 55 II,Optifuel 20SLV
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07-31-2012 06:01 PM  9 years ago
rexxigpilot

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Interesting concept of using the RX to control the pitch on your mechanical CCPM heli. One feature you may lose (though I'm not sure) is the DMA Pitch and DMA Cyclic. It is my understanding that these funtions are a precompensation or feed forward control of the tail to compensate for main rotor torque during high collective and pitch changes. If you notice the tail not holding during high collective and pitch changes, you may want to use the GT5 for the pitch control as it was design to do.
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07-31-2012 07:54 PM  9 years ago
toto

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Interesting concept of using the RX to control the pitch on your mechanical CCPM heli. One feature you may lose (though I'm not sure) is the DMA Pitch and DMA Cyclic. It is my understanding that these funtions are a precompensation or feed forward control of the tail to compensate for main rotor torque during high collective and pitch changes. If you notice the tail not holding during high collective and pitch changes, you may want to use the GT5 for the pitch control as it was design to do.
rexxigpilot,

This is the only way that we found to make the heli fly properly. Any other setup didn't work for us. The tail holds very well.

Best regards,

Gaston
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07-31-2012 08:03 PM  9 years ago
Santiago P

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Dayton

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raptor50sefbl,

I did PM you the timing speeds with the Menu icons for your S3052 servos.
Did you get them?

I will PM you P and I values to try next.

BTW, Interesting take in using the pitch directly into the receiver.
That means yo have to be aware of the collective management and/or any binding points

Santiago
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07-31-2012 09:05 PM  9 years ago
Santiago P

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Dayton

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Ok, Try these.

Set Swash servo timing
HERE:

between .17sec and .18sec

Tail P setting:

Use about I = 47% for tail (is the menu after the P for tail)

Tail Deadband:

Swash P settings

Swash I setting:

Swash or sensor Deadband:

I am basing this on you running 1850 to 2000 RPMs and FBL blades.

Santiago
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08-01-2012 03:46 PM  9 years ago
raptor50sefbl

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mosta,Malta

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i use edge fb bladesRaptor 50 TiTan Se FBL ,EDGE SE Blades,OS Max 55HZ + OS PowerBoost Muffler 55 II,Optifuel 20SLV
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08-01-2012 03:51 PM  9 years ago
raptor50sefbl

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mosta,Malta

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moneypitvictim for the s3152 i usually set the speed to 0.200 on the gt5 is that good or not ,need reply as soon as possible,i use S3152 not S3052Raptor 50 TiTan Se FBL ,EDGE SE Blades,OS Max 55HZ + OS PowerBoost Muffler 55 II,Optifuel 20SLV
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08-01-2012 03:53 PM  9 years ago
Skaluf

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Champaign, IL

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Help with GT5 at Jamboree
Folks, we will be doing a Thunder Tiger/Futaba setup clinic at the Jamboree this year. This will include help with the GT5. I've pasted some information in below. Please consider joining us.

IRCHA Helicopter Jamboree Thunder Tiger & Futaba Setup Clinic
Hosted by Team Thunder Tiger and Team Futaba

Friday August 17
10 am - 11 am Friday Seminar Tent
11 am on the flight line in front of the Hobbico tent

Need help with your Thunder Tiger machine (regardless of radio), or Futaba radio (regardless of machine)?

Join us at 10 am on Friday in the seminar tent for a question and answer session. At 11 am we will move to the flightline at the pilot station in front of the Hobbico exhibit tent to help you with any flying maneuvers or additional setup questions you might have. The following team pilots will be on hand to help you. Todd Bennett, Nick Maxwell, Ben Minor, Jim Stark, Gary Wright, Steve Kaluf
Steve Kaluf
Hobbico
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08-01-2012 03:56 PM  9 years ago
WessCo

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Summerville, GA USA

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I'll be there with heli in hand!
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08-01-2012 08:39 PM  9 years ago
john2kx

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Augusta, Ga

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Following the Gary W. instuctions, I have a couple of questions while setting up a G4 720e:

Swashplate:

-while in the swash servo range section: I started off entering that program and reducing the amount of travel for elevator and aileron since they did have just a little bit of binding. Ended up reducing from the 100 points that were dialed in initially, to about 80 points (while in the program section). I have read where this should have been left at 100%. What about the binding while on the bench?

-at this point, my collective seemed to duplicate what Gary is running (and the same setup I want to have) as I have +/- 15 of pitch and +9/-9 on the cyclic. note: this is with the atv (end points) of my JR 12x set at about 135% in the atv/end points portion of my pitch channel. And, 100% atv in aileron/elevator. After reading further in the GW instructions, he mentions running the pitch (in the GT5 program) between 90-127 to get the best performance out of the swash PID loop. The GT5 has this parameter set at 100 as default. I will increase this to 127 and reduce the end points in my Tx for pitch to accomplish what he was trying to pound in my thick skull.

When I back out of the swash program mode, I notice that my swash has binding at full deflection of elevator and aileron.

Do I need to worry about this (ie, is it normal) or do I need to remove all mechanical binding while on the bench?

Tail: I removed the expo in aileron, elevator and tail per Garys instructions (I think) but, after going back over the instructions it's not clear if I should have done so for the tail. I dialed in 30% expo in the Tx as a starting point. Should I have left the expo alone for the tail in the GT5 program? If so, what was the default? I seem to remember the number 20.

I'm getting pretty good at the intial setup. I was almost finished last night and got too comfortable with the "double tap" while backing out of the menus. A couple of wrong taps and I hit the one labeled RST (reset). It does go much faster the second time around : )

Gary, if you are not getting any royalties from TT, something is wrong!!

John
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08-01-2012 08:57 PM  9 years ago
gwright

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Champaign Il

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I remove all expo in the unit. U can have it there, but I figure if something is adjustible in the transmitter, that's where I want to adjust it cause it's a LOT quicker than stopping the rotorhead and messing with the GT5.

You want to set collective pitch range with the pitch menu in the GT5, leave ail and ele at 100, they don't actually change the movement anyway, they're sort of an agility adjustment if needed. You adjust ail/ele with transmitter ATV's. Put the pitch guage on, set collective to half (0 pitch) then read the cyclic values. Reduce ail/ele ATV's to get cyclics where you want them. You'll want them somewhere over 10 probably but I HIGHLY suggest starting with 7 or 8 degrees cyclic each way. Makes it much smoother so it's easier to fly and setup gains first, then increase cyclic with ATV's to the desired amount.
I would remove binding on the bench, but here is how you do it. Each servo on the swash has an A and B endpoint in the servo menu. These are the endpoints where the GT5 simply won't go any further. Adjust them down a bit (6 in all, since there are two for each of the three servos), then go outside programming menus and check for binding, go back into programming menu's and adjust again, then out to check. Sound like a pain but only takes a few minutes and I find it difficult to try to do it all while in programming menus with a stick to the corner because there are 6 to adjust. It's not like the tail where you simply adjust one end then the other.
Gary Wright
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08-01-2012 09:04 PM  9 years ago
gwright

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OH,.. forgot to mention, I have roughly 15/15 collective only in my very low rpm mode (was 1250, now 1180 <G> but in the other modes it's 13/13 and I rarely use it all. I like having the machine a touch overpitched so when the disk is vertical you can use that to move across the sky faster, assuming that you understand if you use all that pitch in normal flight the flight times will go down and you run the risk of heating things up.You have the same power system components I use, and heat will NEVER be a problem, but on this sort of setup with other motors/esc's you get a stick-banging smack flyer to fly it and everything comes down with smoke pouring out of it <G>. With nitro you could only set pitch to what the motor would tolerate or it would start to bog. With electric it's quite different, you can essentially throw as much pitch as you want at it, and if geared properly it will just pull it. However, it will draw lots more current (the power has to come from somewhere) and get warmer.Gary Wright
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08-01-2012 09:40 PM  9 years ago
john2kx

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That clears things up Gary! Thanks, back to the bench.

JT
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08-01-2012 09:57 PM  9 years ago
SkyfoxSXer

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Gainseville,VA

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Gary,

I have always set my limits to prevent binding in programming mode. When I exit programming mode the swash would bind in full pitch an full elevator but I figured it would never reach those limits in flight. Is that an incorrect assumption?
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08-02-2012 12:24 AM  9 years ago
john2kx

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Augusta, Ga

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Gary,

I went into the servo limit program (A/B where you have the ability to change end points on both sides of 3 cyclic servos) and reduced the amount of throw from the default setting of 250 to 200 and saw no change after backing out of the program and using my Tx to test. I reduced throws in the GT5 servo limit program from 200 to the lowest number of 125, with no visual change in mechanical binding at zero pitch.

Strange to me, I see no difference in mechanical binding at zero pitch (I still have it as if I have not changed anything). When checking at full negative or full positive, the servos have very little movement in fore aft, left right, ie it changed the amount of throw at full positive/full negative pitch but no change at zero pitch.

Call me stupid. I'll wait to hear from the guru before moving on.

JT
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08-02-2012 01:47 AM  9 years ago
john2kx

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Augusta, Ga

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While the rest of you were waiting on your next drink to arrive, I tried a couple of things.

Since I was seeing binding at zero pitch, and very little cyclic throw at full negative or full positive, based on the changes described in my previous post, I tried changing parameters in two programs. I decreased the servo "travel" from its default of 100 to 80 and increased the servo "limit" from my low setting of 125 to 175. This mixture seemed to be going in the right direction but then the battery I was using to power heli died.

I must not be going down the right road or everyone else is living with mechanical binding at full, zero or negative pitch. It seems to me that this needs to be resolved before moving forward.

JT
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08-02-2012 12:25 PM  9 years ago
gwright

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Champaign Il

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I need to play with it when I get home this evening. I don't understand how you're seeing binding after adjusting the endpoints.Gary Wright
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08-02-2012 04:40 PM  9 years ago
john2kx

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Augusta, Ga

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Gary,

It seems like the "servo limit" program is used to reduce throw at full negative/positive pitch for the cyclics and could be useful if one had lots of pitch travel where the swashplate would touch the frames while at full negative pitch and full left or right cyclic. I have seen this in the past with other machines and just figured I would never be in that position. Perhaps the designer of the GT5 has provided a method to eliminate this situation.

My thinking is that we can use the "servo travel" program to dial out mechanical binding at center stick and use "servo limit" to dial out any binding at full neg. or pos. pitch. Then use the ATV in Tx to get the feel/response we want.

Then again, I may be way off base.

JT
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