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HomeRC & Power✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterEngines Plugs Mufflers Fuel › os 55 Magnum Center-Glide Bearing System
04-06-2013 01:38 PM  6 years ago
Four Stroker

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Atlanta

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I imagine the fix does not have a lot of clearance so that the oil film will float the crank. If your Tempest motor mounts are not true, it might have distorted the crankcase enough to seize up ?
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04-06-2013 03:46 PM  6 years ago
wjvail

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Meridian, Mississippi

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I imagine the fix does not have a lot of clearance so that the oil film will float the crank. If your Tempest motor mounts are not true, it might have distorted the crankcase enough to seize up ?
This is an obvious consideration. There really isn't that much else different with the engine after having a SGB installed. As I mentioned before, the bearing/crankshaft clearance on my .91 was very small - only about .0005"

Another idea is that the SGB fills considerably more space in the crankcase than a ball bearing with the shields removed adding to case packing below the piston. This is generally a good thing and something that has the potential to improve power. Filling the lower case leads to better "pumping efficiency". Still, it could also affect the tuning and handling of a once familiar engine.
"Well, nothing bad can happen now."
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04-06-2013 05:54 PM  6 years ago
Four Stroker

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Doesn't look like that much of an increase in crankcase compression ratio. Compare to a YS 70/115 with a crankcase ring. You still have the counter weight cutouts.
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04-07-2013 09:17 PM  6 years ago
TMoore

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Cookeville, TN

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Bill,

Are you going to try the needle settings you ended up with on the stand in the heli? What fuel are you running?

TM
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04-08-2013 02:27 AM  6 years ago
wjvail

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TM...

I've removed the engine from the stand and reinstalled it in my heli. I've now got about 6 flights on it since removing from the stand.

On the stand the needles were about 1/2 to 5/8 on the high and 1/4 to 1/2 on the mid. (If you watch the above YouTube carefully you can count the turns from closed and judge the response for yourself.) I only had to pick the heli up into a hover for a moment to know that this was very lean. In other words, what worked on the bench does not work for flight.

Right now the engine is performing very well in my rebuilt Tempest. I believe the needles are close to 1 & 5/8 on the high and 1/2ish on the mid. I'm not flying this engine/heli very hard yet. Big loops, stall turns and fast fly-bys are about it so far. It will take some hard tic-tocks to convince me the worst is behind me. A 1/2 dozen unplanned autos has moved me down a rung or two on Maslow's Hierarchy of heli comfort.

As for fuel, I've mixed my own for about 15 years now. I'm running 25% nitro and 15% oil for the moment. I often run 30% nitro and 14% oil but for the flying I'm doing these days I've switched blends.
Doesn't look like that much of an increase in crankcase compression ratio. Compare to a YS 70/115 with a crankcase ring. You still have the counter weight cutouts.
I completely agree. It's not that much change. I'm just looking for what is different that could make an engine change its handling as it has. As you pointed out, there are engines that are better at filling the case than an OS .91. It's the change in the case that has me wondering. Yes the pumping efficiency of the OS .91 with a SGB might still be below other engines but it is possibly better than it was and that may cause trouble for a regulated engine. I'm really just guessing. I don't have anything to suggest this. In fact, just the opposite. The fact my engines are returning to there once friendly selves suggests that simply more running is what is required and that there is no issues with the more complete case packing.

Bill
"Well, nothing bad can happen now."
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04-08-2013 02:29 AM  6 years ago
TMoore

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Cookeville, TN

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Bill, If I were you I would increase the oil content to at least 20% and open the mid to 1-1.5 turns.

TM
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04-08-2013 06:17 PM  6 years ago
Four Stroker

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I'm with Terry but if you stay with the same fuel the test is whether the engine goes back to the same needle settings as before after some running time. Good luck Bill.

Terry;

Does it matter what condition the crank is in where it goes through the new magic bearing ? I have some cranks that are barfed up where the old bearing seized and the inner race spun on the crank.
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04-08-2013 06:32 PM  6 years ago
Tyler

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Chicagoland area

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I have never been successful with 15% oil content in helicopter fuels. I could make it run, but not well, and certainly not for 3D. When I went to 20%-22% oil life got easier.Enjoy things that money can buy IF you don't lose the things money can't buy.
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04-08-2013 06:47 PM  6 years ago
Four Stroker

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Yeah, you can't float the crank on an oil film if there is no oil there. Try some CY 30% - oily as hell.
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04-08-2013 06:51 PM  6 years ago
TMoore

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Cookeville, TN

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The crank needs to be smooth as ground from the factory. If it isn't it will negate the benefits of the Center Glide Bearing and cause issues. The oil flow could possibly be interrupted if the crank were marred in anyway.

TM
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04-13-2013 10:59 PM  6 years ago
Jerry K

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Houston Area

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I figured I would give you my expirence. I had both a 700 and 600 that I do not fly much since the other electrics get more time. Both began to act up with the VBar on them so I suspected the rear bearing. I removed the rear cover on the .91 and found the crank spinning in the rear bearing and the bearing did not want to turn so I started looking into this bearing.

After reading this thread I was a bit apprehensive about going this route. I decided to send in both motors due to my runtime issues. Buzz got them turned around in less than 1 week including shipping and I just finished flying the 2nd machine. The 600 had to be richened slightly and I had to richen the low end of the 700. Keep in mind it has been over 6 months since these have been flown so that could have accounted for the change.

Overall, I am happy with the change but this is only one flight per heli. I didn't expirence the drastic changes reported earlier and do not expect to. It's a bearing change, so I do not see how a minor change can effect the motor performace.

Now I do not have to worry about the 2 helis sitting around rusting my new bearings.

10 flights today, no problems!!!
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04-15-2013 02:21 AM  6 years ago
blaster182

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Glen Cove, NY - USA

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After reading some of the latest posts i have been biting my nails as what to expect. I had a sgb installed in a used hyper 50, and today was the day to put it to the test. Installed in a velocity 50 i started out with main needle at 2.5 turns out and 10 degrees fatter on the idle jet. Started right up and flew 8 flights today. I was expecting to have a warm running motor as per some of the posts. Ran just fine and motor remained cold on the backplate. With every flight i leaned a little while a first i was only hovering, then hard climb outs then back to my normal routines. The motor never skipped a beat, by the eighth flight my needles were back to where they were originally and still relatively cool, but seems to have a little extra punch, possibly due to less air volume in the crankcase due to the sg bushing. All and all extremely happy with this upgrade and going to do the rest of the fleet.
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04-15-2013 07:01 AM  6 years ago
Tyler

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These are more typical reports.Enjoy things that money can buy IF you don't lose the things money can't buy.
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04-15-2013 02:08 PM  6 years ago
Four Stroker

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Atlanta

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As Tyler said. This is just a magic sleeve bearing. It should run essentially the same the first day. Now Bill is an honorable man and I believe his problems were as described but probably due to his home brew low oil fuel and possibly old barfed up crank.

I would like to hear tales of people who use different brands of fuel with this bearing.

The lifespan of this new bearing is the only really interesting question.
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04-15-2013 02:22 PM  6 years ago
MikeSherman

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Racine, WI

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I had 3 well used engines updated:

OS 50 Hyper
OS 91 Cspec
OS 91 Cspec

All had used cranks in good condition.

Fuel: Magnum 30%

All my engines needed richening to keep heat down but eventually came back to normal needle settings (approximately) after a few tanks of fuel.

-Mike
Team QuickUK Pilot
Team Heliproz
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04-15-2013 05:26 PM  6 years ago
blaster182

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Glen Cove, NY - USA

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Btw I am using rotor rage 30%
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04-16-2013 02:57 AM  6 years ago
wjvail

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Meridian, Mississippi

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Now Bill is an honorable man and I believe his problems were as described...
Thank you for that. I hope people believe that. I'm really just trying to relay my experiences. I've said it before and and I'll say it again, I think the SGB will end up being something we need and want.
...I believe his problems were as described but probably due to his home brew low oil fuel and possibly old barfed up crank.
Err.. Maybe. My home brew, low oil, moon shine, is pretty well respected. As I mentioned before, I've mixed more than 600 gallons a year and been doing it for more than 20 years. I've been flying for more than 40. Entered the NATs in 1976. I own over 300 engines. It would be difficult for me to overstate the number of hours I've spent testing different fuels and fuel blends. The included pictures are of the test stand I built in 1978 and its replacement. Don't disrespect my "home brew".

As for the "barfed up crank"... You may be on to something here. See attached pictures. This is my OS .91 HZ-R crank as I received back from Magnum. Looks bad and I am NOT suggesting Buzz was responsible for this. It looks bad enough that I wondered if it was the same crank I sent in. I don't remember what it looked like before. If not for one small detail I might still have doubts as to weather or not I received the same crank I mailed in (can you spot the detail?). My problems could very well stem from the fact that my crank looks knackered. But still, this engine ran very well before being retrofitted with a SGB and I think it is worth cautioning others that if your crank is dodgy, you might have troubles.

Bill

"Well, nothing bad can happen now."
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04-16-2013 04:16 AM  6 years ago
Gearhead

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Vt

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I like your 5 gallon muffler Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz
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04-16-2013 04:20 AM  6 years ago
TMoore

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Cookeville, TN

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The lifespan of this new bearing is the only really interesting question.
Would the answer to that question be really interesting if I told you that there were multiple engines out there with 700+ flights on the same bearing and still running well?
Err.. Maybe. My home brew, low oil, moon shine, is pretty well respected. As I mentioned before, I've mixed more than 600 gallons a year and been doing it for more than 20 years. I've been flying for more than 40. Entered the NATs in 1976. I own over 300 engines. It would be difficult for me to overstate the number of hours I've spent testing different fuels and fuel blends. The included pictures are of the test stand I built in 1978 and its replacement. Don't disrespect my "home brew".
It doesn't really matter if you mix 6 gallons or 600 gallons a year if the mix isn't the right mix for the application. OS has stated in the past that in their warranty requirements that 18% lube is the minimum they will warranty. I'm not sure what their current rules are because I've never had to send in an engine for warranty work. I'm sure that Bill Baxter at OS will be taking notes going forward on this thread, so no warranty for you with 15% oil content running OS engines.
http://osengines.com/faq/faq-q663.html
http://manuals.hobbico.com/osm/91hz-r3d-manual.pdf See page 14 where it says; "For consistent performance and long engine life, it is essential to use fuel containing AT LEAST 18% lubricant by volume. "

In addition, the oil viscosity has to be right because if it isn't, too thin a mix won't needle right and it will be very hard to figure out what's going on with the carb that won't respond, so the viscosity has to be factored in and we have no way of knowing what the viscosity of this 15% oil blend is. With too thin a mix the steep taper on an OS carb needle would in some cases not even shut off the HS needle completely especially on a regulator carb. What works on the bench or in an airplane doesn't count because helis are different. Helis don't cool the same as plank engines.

As far as the picture of the crank, I would bet that the reason it looks like that when you got it back from Buzz is because it looked like that when you sent it out. Look at the crank where the bearing locates, nice and shiny but just ahead of the bearing it looks like the crank was rubbing on the ID of the case. Classic example of BB rears failing and left too long while the crank rubbed on the case. The clearance between the crank and the
Center Glide will not let the crank rub on the case, period. That was figured out way early in the game and that's one reason the engines have to be hand fitted to check for TIR of the crankcase ID to bearing ID's and to ascertain how much clearance per side there is between the crank and the case once the Center Glide is installed and fitted. If the cranks and the cases are too worn there won't be enough vacuum created and hence not enough pressure on regulator engines coming out of the backplate fitting.

Here's the best way to cut the drama. If there's a problem with the Center Glide.....send the engine back, explain it to Buzz, he sends you back your engine with a shiny new BB in it and a check for your money back. That's what the lifetime guarantee gets you...complete satisfaction.

TM
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04-16-2013 09:15 AM  6 years ago
wjvail

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Meridian, Mississippi

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I'm not sure what their current rules are because I've never had to send in an engine for warranty work. I'm sure that Bill Baxter at OS will be taking notes going forward on this thread, so no warranty for you with 15% oil content running OS engines.
http://osengines.com/faq/faq-q663.html
http://manuals.hobbico.com/osm/91hz-r3d-manual.pdf See page 14 where it says; "For consistent performance and long engine life, it is essential to use fuel containing AT LEAST 18% lubricant by volume. "
Seriously? After all I've said, do you think I care in the slightest about OS's warranty? Both engines I've had converted have over 25 hours run time and the crank pictured from my .91 has been in service over 6 years. If you really would like to void your warranty, modify your OS/Hobby Services engine in any way. Say, for instance, by sending it to a 3rd party for the installation of a non-OEM bearing. Which do you thing is more readily apparent to the repair facility? Running an engine on 17% oil or pulling the back plate off and seeing a big gold bushing. I might be wrong but I don't believe Hobby Services will be of much help to any of us on this thread. But again, I really don't care about OS's warranty.
As far as the picture of the crank, I would bet that the reason it looks like that when you got it back from Buzz is because it looked like that when you sent it out.
I think I said that. We'll never know for sure because I didn't take a picture of it. Furthermore, it doesn't matter what it looked like before sending it out. The engine ran fine... For the last 6 years.
In addition, the oil viscosity has to be right because if it isn't, too thin a mix won't needle right and it will be very hard to figure out what's going on with the carb that won't respond, so the viscosity has to be factored in and we have no way of knowing what the viscosity of this 15% oil blend is.
Do you work for Magnum fuels? Are you a rep? I feel like I'm defending myself here when all I'm trying to do is relay my experiences after installing a product. You use SGB's and like 'em I and others have found them problematic - at least until they have some run time. Others have reported no problems what-so-ever and my next engine may run flawlessly from the first drop of fuel forward. That has not been my experience up to this date.

Making this more odd is that I've been clear that I actually like the product and it is, after a period of time, working well for me.
With too thin a mix the steep taper on an OS carb needle would in some cases not even shut off the HS needle completely especially on a regulator carb.
What?
Here's the best way to cut the drama. If there's a problem with the Center Glide.....send the engine back, explain it to Buzz, he sends you back your engine with a shiny new BB in it and a check for your money back. That's what the lifetime guarantee gets you...complete satisfaction.
I don't see any drama. Why would I return my engine? I actually am suggesting this is a product others will most likely enjoy and I'm only suggesting be cautious. At least in the beginning.

I could go on but this is really tiring. I will not argue with you any more.

I'm going to bed.
"Well, nothing bad can happen now."
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HomeRC & Power✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterEngines Plugs Mufflers Fuel › os 55 Magnum Center-Glide Bearing System
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