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HomeAircraftHelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsV-Bar › Vbar Silverline sensor?
08-08-2012 11:26 PM  5 years agoPost 121
showme409

rrNovice

St. Charles, Mo

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I know there is a few thousandths clearance between the torque tube shaft and the bearing ID. This can be cocked very easily. I think I may try a piece of .001 shim stock to get the bearing to fit more truer on the shaft. This is the only place that I could see a vibration developing.

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08-20-2012 12:05 AM  5 years agoPost 122
aramb

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Macungie, PA

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I am still having the CCW rotation issue. It even does it in slow forward flight, which is real annoying. This past week I replaced all the bearings in the main shaft and motor pinion. I also moved the ESC from the back to the front to get the CG perfectly balanced. This also provided me with an opportunity to re-route the wiring.

It HAS to be either the vbar controller box OR a setup issue as every other piece of hardware on this heli has been changed. I actually have enough parts to build another complete 700!!!

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08-20-2012 12:08 PM  5 years agoPost 123
aramb

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Macungie, PA

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I should also clarify that during the re-building process, I used the spectrum analyzer at each step. I had no vibes anywhere in the process until actually adding the blades. Then I got a vibe reading of 120 at 1500 RPM (the headspeed I am using), but well below the yellow line. I balanced the entire rotor assembly on the DuBro Spin Balancer, so I am not sure why I am even getting that. However... the CCW drift is evident even with the main blades off when the motor is running. None of this makes any sense. Isn't that the issue you had UncleJane?

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08-21-2012 11:16 PM  5 years agoPost 124
aramb

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Macungie, PA

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Okay guys, I need some help here. The other night while running my motor without the rotor head on to check for vibes, I could here the motor pulsing a bit - like it wasn't running at a stable rpm, but was dropping RPMs every second or so. Could this be causing my CCW drift? I am running a CC ICE2 HV 120 ESC in governor mode. Any thoughts?

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08-21-2012 11:19 PM  5 years agoPost 125
rexxigpilot

rrProfessor

Florida

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Sounds like you found your drift cause. What are your CC settings? You may be able to adjust the ESC pulse frequency or timing to eliminate the problem.

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08-21-2012 11:33 PM  5 years agoPost 126
aramb

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Macungie, PA

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These are my settings. I am running the Align 700MX 470kV motor. Do they look correct?

#######################################################
# Castle Link Data File
# Created: Sunday, July 29, 2012
# Do Not Edit This File By Hand
#######################################################
Hex55: 85
Brake Delay: .6 sec (Delayed) (*)
Brake Ramp: Immediate (*)
Motor Start Power: 59
Direction: Forward (*)
Brake Strength: 0
Power-On Beep: Enabled (*)
Motor Timing: 5
Data Log Enabled: 255
Current Limiting: Normal (160A) (*)
Vehicle Type: Helicopter
Throttle Type: Governor Mode
Throttle Response: 5
Governor Gain: 15
Initial Spool-Up Rate: 2
Head Speed Change Rate: 5
Auto Rotate Enabled: True
Governor Mode Type: Fixed
Vehicle Setup - Battery Type: LiPo
Vehicle Setup - Number of Cells: 12
Vehicle Setup - Battery Voltage: 44.4000
Vehicle Setup - Gear Ratio: 9.333
Vehicle Setup - Motor Kv: 470
Vehicle Setup - Motor Number of Poles: 10
Desired Head Speed 1: 1600
Desired Head Speed 2: 1700
Desired Head Speed 3: 1825
PWM Rate: 8 Khz
Sample Frequency: 1 Sample / Sec (*)
Cutoff Voltage: Auto Li-Po (*)
Auto-Lipo Volts/Cell: 3.2 Volts/Cell (*)
Voltage Cutoff Type: Soft Cutoff (*)
Current Cutoff Type: Soft Cutoff (*)
Link Live Enable: Disabled (*)

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08-22-2012 01:02 AM  5 years agoPost 127
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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However... the CCW drift is evident even with the main blades off when the motor is running. None of this makes any sense. Isn't that the issue you had UncleJane?
Yep. I didn't have the pulsing problem with the motor tho, mine held rpm normally....

LS

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08-22-2012 01:12 AM  5 years agoPost 128
aramb

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Macungie, PA

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The pulsing is very slight, but you can hear the speed of the motor changing. This may be normal since the motor has no load on it - I don't know. But if someone can look at my Castle settings and verify they are correct for this particular motor, that would be helpful.

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08-22-2012 01:40 AM  5 years agoPost 129
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Yeah unfortunately it's highly unlikely that that would be the cause of the drifting (these things work on nitros too which vary rpm much worse when rich, etc. and normally still hold headings fine)

I've got mine set in governor mode instead of the fixed HS's, and set the RPM with a flat throttle curve in the transmitter. Might have a go with governor mode and see what happens.
I also have the 700MX 470KV in my 700E and I believe my PWM and other settings are very close to yours...

But mine sits at the intended rpm with no load on it with no variations in speed, so I think that's the normal condition....

LS

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08-22-2012 03:41 AM  5 years agoPost 130
rexxigpilot

rrProfessor

Florida

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Yeah unfortunately it's highly unlikely that that would be the cause of the drifting (these things work on nitros too which vary rpm much worse when rich, etc. and normally still hold headings fine)
A pulsing motor is very hard on the yaw axis gyro. It causes a varying torque reaction which constantly needs to be corrected. The more corection the more error or drift will be created by the gyro.

Try using 12KHz on the PWM. This will reduce ripple. I use 12KHz on two of my 12S powered motors with KVs of 470 and 500. I get no pulsing even without the head.

I do agree with jane on using Set RPM governor mode.

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08-22-2012 06:13 AM  5 years agoPost 131
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

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Try without governor.

Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more

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08-22-2012 12:27 PM  5 years agoPost 132
aramb

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Macungie, PA

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I am currently using Governor Mode -> Set RPM. Is Fixed Endpoints the mode I should try?

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08-22-2012 01:34 PM  5 years agoPost 133
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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A pulsing motor is very hard on the yaw axis gyro. It causes a varying torque reaction which constantly needs to be corrected. The more corection the more error or drift will be created by the gyro.
Well, no... that's the type of thing HH gyros are _supposed_ to correct for (without drifting, hence the name "heading hold" or AVCS). So I don't think that's the problem here.

I haven't flown in a while so I've forgotten my settings on governor mode exactly in my ESC; it's the mode where you run a flat throttle curve and just how high it is is what sets the RPM...

I'm starting to think again that it's a firmware bug, since that's the only thing that hasn't been changed or worked on in either my or Aram's case. And it kind of does behave like that....

LS

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08-22-2012 02:04 PM  5 years agoPost 134
MrMel

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Gotland

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I'm starting to think again that it's a firmware bug, since that's the only thing that hasn't been changed or worked on in either my or Aram's case. And it kind of does behave like that....
Then downgrade, as, as far as Ulrich knows there is no bug, so unless you can point down to exact what, there is no active searching for any issues.
There is very few with drifting, and none came back with details needed for investigation...

Regards governor, I disagree, there is vibration filters, a tailkick from the governor could be filtered out by 50% = drift.

Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more

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08-22-2012 07:58 PM  5 years agoPost 135
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Then downgrade, as, as far as Ulrich knows there is no bug, so unless you can point down to exact what, there is no active searching for any issues.
There is very few with drifting, and none came back with details needed for investigation...
At least at this point it almost can't be anything else. Once you replace absolutely the entire thing as I did in my case (heli, radio, entire unit) that's all that's left - I only tried 5.2 and 5.3 Pro on mine but those two versions are the only thing leftover.

so downgrading actually might be a good troubleshooting step.

But depending on the bug (i.e. uninitialized data for example) it can manifest itself intermittently and in some cases not at all. What me and Aram are seeing is really almost garden-variety software bug type behavior, which is why I keep coming back to it in my mind...
Regards governor, I disagree, there is vibration filters, a tailkick from the governor could be filtered out by 50% = drift.
Sorry, I forgot Aram was having the tail kick issue... so yeah I agree, my bad

LS

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08-22-2012 08:02 PM  5 years agoPost 136
BobOD

rrElite Veteran

New York- USA

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I'm starting to think again that it's a firmware bug
I agree it does seem like a software thing but I had a very similar issue with a FBL gyro. Not a V-Bar though. I exchanged it and no issues with the replacement. It was the same firmware though so it must have been the hardware right?

Here's the funny part, the next update said, "fixed tail drift issue with some units".

Team POP Secret

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08-22-2012 09:27 PM  5 years agoPost 137
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Well MrMel is right that a consistently reproducible scenario is needed to find the problem. Until then, what are they supposed to do if they can't reproduce it? They have to assume user error or some other cause until then and rightly so. Unlike other units with problems (i.e. the 750 where it's just blatantly obviously dorked up), this particular case with me and Aram seems to be a little bit exotic, or at least not consistent.

I'm a SW engineer also so I understand that end of it.

I wish I lived in Germany so I could just take my machine down to the Vbar devs, because I can replicate it no problem. Or at least I could - I haven't been flying much lately and still haven't emptied the electronics body bag after the 700N crash. So I don't know if my Vbar survived the crash or not.

Next I get round to it and I find that it's ok, I may put it on my Whiplash so I can film the CCW rotation in action....

LS

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08-22-2012 10:51 PM  5 years agoPost 138
GetToDaChopper

rrElite Veteran

Las Vegas , NV

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if you would really would like to get to the bottom of it you could always send them your heli for testing but that's a bit of a overkill i suppose.......

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08-22-2012 11:10 PM  5 years agoPost 139
BobOD

rrElite Veteran

New York- USA

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Yeah, the whole heli seems a bit much. But why not the FBL unit. That was my point. If they get them back and analyse, it should help to identify. The case I was referring to seemed to get resolved pretty quickly that way. Different unit but the symptoms seemed to be so similar it's scary.

Team POP Secret

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08-23-2012 02:49 AM  5 years agoPost 140
aramb

rrNovice

Macungie, PA

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There is no need to send the FBL unit back to Mikado. I purchased a new Silverline sensor which rules out the sensor. Since then I have swapped out the controller box from my Fusion 50 (which has no issues on the Fusion). Same problem. That rules out the vbar as being faulty. What it does not rule out is some anomaly in the heli that is affecting the vbar (vibes, esc issues, mechanical setup, etc). I have attempted to one-by-one systematically eliminate these issues. Vibes are almost non-existent after replacing all bearings and meticulously balancing everything. Mechanical setup has been checked, double-checked, etc. I tore the heli down to the frames and did a complete rebuild so that I could replace ALL moving parts, rotor head, tail assembly, gears, etc. I have enough parts to build a second heli now (except for cyclic servos, motor and esc). I replaced the tail servo with a more robust servo. The only thing left is possibly an ESC issue (setting or failure). If that is not successful, my last ditch effort will be to return it to a 700 size heli (it is currently stretched to 800) and see if that results in any change. After that, it will be torn down and sold piecemeal for parts and I will move on to something else.

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HomeAircraftHelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsV-Bar › Vbar Silverline sensor?
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