RunRyder RC
WATCH
 4 pages [ <<    <     1      2     ( 3 )     4     NEXT    >> ] 10438 views TOPIC CLOSED
HomeTurbine✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterTurbine Helicopters › Zealous II Heli Re-born!.. (Wren Turbine Longranger)
01-13-2013 09:28 PM  7 years ago
G-Limo

rrApprentice

Europe

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Get well soon!!

I have hovered the new tail in the garden and the result seem positive, but work commitments have taken priority at the moment.

In the next couple of weeks, I am going to add the old LR tail to the Zealous to see how the new config flies.

/DG
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR
01-14-2013 11:19 PM  7 years ago
MattJen

rrElite Veteran

UK

MyPosts All Forum Topic
cheers matey, today was first day walking up and about..
How is the plug coming along ?

Give us a call sometime when you are free.

Matt
All The Best
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
01-20-2013 05:08 PM  7 years ago
G-Limo

rrApprentice

Europe

MyPosts All Forum Topic
OK - So to try to improve the Tail Authority, I have spun the Tail Rotor over to the other side of the tail boom.

{Tail Authority Thread https://rc.runryder.com/t718961p2/}

With the R/H rotation of the Main Rotor, the Tail Rotor wqas in its correct SCALE position, but it's thrust was directed straight at the huge vertical fin. In its new configuration, ALL the thrust is available for the tail control.. (no need for the speed-up gears I hope now.)

Original repair..

Modified repair..

Hopefully I have a finished plug and can get the final Boom fabricated..

/Limo.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR
01-21-2013 03:49 PM  7 years ago
PETER ROB

rrElite Veteran

Devon UK

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Thrust/Lift
Dave,All articles I have read about rotor blades refer to lift
Turning them through 90 degrees does not change it to thrust
Changing your tail blades to the other side of the boom, is great for scale, but I do not see how it will improve your tail authority, tail fin or not,
There are a few laws governing this, but the best to describe it is the
BERNOULLI PRINCIPLE
Peter R
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
01-21-2013 04:57 PM  7 years ago
G-Limo

rrApprentice

Europe

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Hi Peter,

You may be correct about Bernoulli and his Principle and how it relates the LIFT on a Wing Section. However, I am not clever enough to argue that one way or the other. But I do view the tail rotor of a Heli in the same way I look at an Aircraft Prop and whether a plane is sucked forward with lift or pushed forward with thrust, I am in the thrust camp!

This being said and a propeller creates thrust, I am sure a huge sheet of material fixed on the front of a plane (behind the prop) would reduce the effective thrust quite significantly??

/DG
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR
01-21-2013 08:06 PM  7 years ago
PETER ROB

rrElite Veteran

Devon UK

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Dave,If you do a Google search for helicopter lift there is an in depth post on how the Bernoulli principle is relevant to helicopters

Not really wanting to go down the prop aeroplane route, but to counter your argument, on a single engine aeroplane with prop at the front, right behind the prop is normally the engine,cowling and cabin, a much bigger mass in relation to the prop than your tail rotor and tail fin

Your original reason for changing sides was because of lack of tail authority
This was caused by the turbine/scale conversion, it is a sad fact, but some thing you and your turbine flying friends should have been aware of, when you over engine, or over load weight wise, a model helicopter, you increase the torque loadings, and the original design will not cope with the increased torque

There have been many post,s written here on RR, about this very issue, maybe reading back through some of them, will guide you to an easy solution to your problem

Then again you may wish to follow your own avenue of research, and come up with something unique that we all may gain from
Peter R
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
01-21-2013 08:38 PM  7 years ago
MattJen

rrElite Veteran

UK

MyPosts All Forum Topic
our engine is not underpowerd far from it.

Look up torque reaction.

The problem is our tail is on the wrong side for the rotation of the machine.
A helicopter main rotor or rotor system is the combination of a rotary wing and a control system that is used to generate both the aerodynamic lift force that supports the weight of the helicopter, and thrust which counteracts aerodynamic drag in forward flight.
The tail rotor is a smaller rotor mounted so that it rotates vertically or near-vertically at the end of the tail of a traditional single-rotor helicopter. The tail rotor's position and distance from the center of gravity allow it to develop thrust in a direction opposite of the main rotor's rotation, to counter the torque effect created by the main rotor. Tail rotors are simpler than main rotors since they require only collective changes in pitch to vary thrust. The pitch of the tail rotor blades is adjustable by the pilot via the anti-torque pedals, which also provide directional control by allowing the pilot to rotate the helicopter around its vertical axis (thereby changing the direction the craft is pointed).
If the main rotor spins counter-clockwise, then the fuselage (cabin) will spin clockwise really fast. The tail rotor exists to stop this. It produces thrust to counteract the spinning of the fuselage.It's based on Newton's 3rd Law of Motion: For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.

OUR tail is on the side for a left hand rotation to keep it scale as per full size, but our rotation is RHR and the thrust produced by the tail has become inefficient in windy conditions due to the large fin which blocks over 50% of the thrust produced

If it was LHR it would producing thrust the oposite way ie blowing it into clean air free from obstruction. As the tail on the RHS will now do. Dave would you agree you have more thrust now ?

On my friends PA28 which i fly with him frequently the prop is far bigger than the cowling in fact the cowling is tiny, our tail rotor over 50% of the arc is coverd buy the fin. On a LHR it would not be a problem, but on RHR it is not as efficient unless you speed up the tail or put bigger blades,or as Dave came up with swap it over to the other side.

The zealous was designed in pod and boom formatt as a scale test bed with Wren MW54 for the longranger PERIOD.It is not as you keep alluding to with insidious and totally unfounded remarks an overweight,over engineered machine,the machines you fly and build are in that category which is why bits fall or break off, and yours spend more time on the work bench than in the air and only come out at charmouth.

I have no issues with my tail it flies fine because i fully understand power to weight ratio and lift,which why i chose the right blades,tail blades,gearing,power curve on the turbine.
i knew about this problem 4 yrs ago.

Dave wants to try something different other than copy my setup... the normal way round marginal tail authority would be up the head speed if your powerplant allows,and or bigger main blades/tail Blades, and or speed up the tail.

Mine flies well in a strong wind and is lovely to fly.It is my regular hack.

Watch at YouTube

All The Best
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
01-21-2013 10:02 PM  7 years ago
G-Limo

rrApprentice

Europe

MyPosts All Forum Topic
This subject has kinda' hijacked my 'Rebuild of the Long Ranger' thread and the tail theory I am sure it could be better dealt with in the following..

Tail Authority Thread https://rc.runryder.com/t718961p2/

But to answer Matt's question (and I have 2 IDENTICAL Zealous to try this on), there is less tail pitch applied (anti torque) on the right side tail machine hovering as there is on the machine with the tail on the left..

I checked this before I re-worked the repaired tail for the LR Fuz... The other alternative to this problem would have been to re-engineer the main mechanics and flip the Crown Wheel over to reverse the Main Rotor direction, but there really isn't the room in the mechanics to do this...

Peter.. Relating to your comment on the frontal area of a single engined plane..

I am sure that if one had this relative frontal area (compared with the prop!) the damn thing wouldn't move down the runway!!

/DG
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR
01-22-2013 07:40 AM  7 years ago
PETER ROB

rrElite Veteran

Devon UK

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Matt, wondered how long it would take for you to stir the pot
If your heli is the same as Daves and yours fly's so well, why did Dave not just copy your set up
You are buddy's fly together,are in each others pockets, so with your extensive knowledge, why did Dave need to post when you already had all the answers

Dave,How did you check that changing the tail rotor to the oposite side was more effective?
Every single flight is different in some way to the last, too many reasons to list
Therefore unless you have a set method of checking something, it is just an opinion
Peter R
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
01-22-2013 08:03 AM  7 years ago
MattJen

rrElite Veteran

UK

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Dont need to stir the pot, just correcting your flawed inaccurate statements as ususal when it comes to the zealous/Longranger

As to my setup, with 4 trophies behind me this year, i think the facts speak for themselves as to how well my machine flies and how well I FLY IT.
You might learn something, as poor tail authority is your biggest problem on all your machines you, have,had,and sold on.. in fact it is what you have become well know for,as well as bits breaking and falling off.

As to why Dave posted, ASK HIM!!!
All The Best
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
01-22-2013 09:01 AM  7 years ago
PETER ROB

rrElite Veteran

Devon UK

MyPosts All Forum Topic
4 trophies behind me this year,
Matt, I thought you were going to take it seriously
How many of those trophy's came from your own club?
With owning and flying the same helicopter, over a few years, and with the help up of Ross and Dave, it's about time you got some reward
Mind you a lot of it is how much ass kissing you are prepared to do
Peter R
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
01-22-2013 10:34 AM  7 years ago
G-Limo

rrApprentice

Europe

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Dave,How did you check that changing the tail rotor to the oposite side was more effective?
Peter,

The test was reasonably simple.. I have 2 virtually identical Zealous at the moment, with a weight (withing a hundred or so grams) of each other and the same turbine (Wren 54), Main and tail blades.

First I had to rebuild a tail gearbox for the other side of the boom.

I hovered them both with the same head speed and set the gyro (non HH) to lock the tail and then once I had landed, measured the tail offset/pitch.

The rotor on the R/H side showed about 1/2 deg less pitch to stop the yaw compared to the rotor on the L/H.

I know this isn't much (the Zealous has a small'ish fin), but conclusive enough for me to change the Tail Boom Plug I am using to repair the LR tail boom.

What I need to do I think is make a couple of mock ups of the Long Ranger vertical fin and attach that to the Zealous and then measure the different T/R offset to stop the yaw.. I may even add ballast to bring the zealous up to the flying weight of the LR and test a third time, but it's too damn cold here at the moment for all this - A spring morning test I think!

Relating to Matt's flying - He did deserve the awards he won, (no ar$e ki$$ing) particularly the EMHC flyin, where he flew a brilliant round just after he had seen me drop my LR for a reason which at that time was unknown!!

Watch at YouTube

/Limo (DG)
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR
01-22-2013 11:30 AM  7 years ago
PETER ROB

rrElite Veteran

Devon UK

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Dave, if you are happy with the end results, that really is all that matters
Like I said in an earlier post about testing, every flight is different, to be really conclusive, the test's need to be done on the same heli, there are too many variables between different helis
I know you made a gearbox plug for the new tail boom, Have you made a mould or cast one yet?

No need to stand up for Matt he's big enough to stand up for himself, if fact he gets bigger every time I see a new video, now there's an accident waiting to happen
Peter R
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
01-22-2013 04:27 PM  7 years ago
MattJen

rrElite Veteran

UK

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Dave
You still on for tomorrow, would like to look at the Plug,
I am gonna charge up the Pred. I am getting tired of flying the trex 250 around my front room..

Will call you later

Matt
All The Best
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
01-22-2013 05:24 PM  7 years ago
G-Limo

rrApprentice

Europe

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Fly it through the window and around the garden

I am all charged up...

Later!

/DG
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR
01-31-2013 08:47 PM  7 years ago
G-Limo

rrApprentice

Europe

MyPosts All Forum Topic

The tail plug is ready for the final rub and wax. (tail rotor now moved to the R/H side for clockwise Main blade rotation.)

/Limo
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR
02-01-2013 12:56 AM  7 years ago
g5sean

rrNovice

Savannah, GA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Beautiful work Dave, but I'm quite sad that it's on the other side now.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
02-01-2013 10:11 AM  7 years ago
G-Limo

rrApprentice

Europe

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Hi Sean - The 'Other side' is sometimes better!! and.. It applies 'the force' more effectively..

Also an easier solution to reversing the main rotor direction. The tail power was marginal with the the other configuration. The solution was this or to increase the tail speed with a higher Tail Gearbox ratio. (this was where all my problems started!) The box is back to 1:1 now with this and I'm confident it will work better.

How are things working out with you - PM me with news.

/DG
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR
02-03-2013 06:17 PM  7 years ago
MattJen

rrElite Veteran

UK

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Looks good Dave,good to try something different as well.

Matt
All The Best
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
03-20-2013 09:20 PM  7 years ago
MattJen

rrElite Veteran

UK

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Dave,
Been away, has the mold been done yet ? hope this weather gets sorted, I am dying to get out with my long ranger and blow the cobwebs out.
Managed to fire up in the garden the other day, which was fun ha ha.

Anyway hope yours is up and running for the Watford scale event.
All The Best
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
WATCH
 4 pages [ <<    <     1      2     ( 3 )     4     NEXT    >> ] 10438 views TOPIC CLOSED
HomeTurbine✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterTurbine Helicopters › Zealous II Heli Re-born!.. (Wren Turbine Longranger)
 Print TOPIC  Make Suggestion 

 7  Topic Subscribe

Sunday, March 29 - 7:24 am - Copyright © 2000-2020 RunRyder   EMAILEnable Cookies

Login Here
 New Subscriptions 
 Buddies Online