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HomeRC & PowerAircraftHelicopterRadio - Futaba FASST › 8FG range check almost a disaster
06-04-2012 01:41 AM  6 years agoPost 1
stevehof

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Oceanside, CA, USA

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One of my 8FG converts was range checking his nearly new Trex 550 after doing Mr. Mel's buzzer retrofit. I was helping him do the range check so this is a first hand account. The transmitter was in 'condition' normal. Throttle curve in normal was a flat 30% to support the Castle ICE ESC governor set up. He does not have 'auto bailout' enabled so his throttle endpoints are around 85 each top and bottom.

He walked out until he just lost control, maybe around 100 feet. Within a few seconds of the swash not responding anymore the ESC armed AND the blades started to spool up. I can't fathom why the ESC would arm at 30% throttle? Anyhow, we tried this again with the ship in throttle hold and the ESC did NOT arm. There is no zero throttle on this ship other than throttle hold and the ESC did not arm when in throttle hold during the range check.

The only thing I found out of the ordinary is that his fail safe was at -126 even though his low throttle endpoint was only around -85. In my 8FG my fail safe numbers mirror my low throttle end points. We did this whole drill twice to make sure it wasn't a fluke or some stick or switch position problem. What the heck are we missing here?

Synergy E7, Vbar 5 Pro, BLS255 & 256HV Hacker Turnado 530KV LE, Rail 696, CC120HV, WR Sup BEC | 18mz

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06-04-2012 02:16 AM  6 years agoPost 2
Eury

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Dover NH

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Gotta be the failsafe setting.

Nick Crego

Citizen #0168

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06-04-2012 08:08 AM  6 years agoPost 3
dkpodder

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Vinderup, DK

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Regarding the endpoint, is it the 'Travel' or 'Limit' which is set at -85 ? Try setting both at -85, and check if You can reproduce the problem.

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06-04-2012 04:00 PM  6 years agoPost 4
stevehof

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Oceanside, CA, USA

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Gotta be the failsafe setting
Still can't figure out where the -126 failsafe comes from. However, failsafe is/was working because when the blades started to spool up, my friend just shut off his transmitter. Throttle hold may have worked too, but I suspect this was the right move all things considered.

Synergy E7, Vbar 5 Pro, BLS255 & 256HV Hacker Turnado 530KV LE, Rail 696, CC120HV, WR Sup BEC | 18mz

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06-04-2012 04:07 PM  6 years agoPost 5
stevehof

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Oceanside, CA, USA

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Regarding the endpoint, is it the 'Travel' or 'Limit' which is set at -85 ? Try setting both at -85, and check if You can reproduce the problem.
The inner numbers (travel) are what we always adjust for throttle cal. We will probably play with it a bit more on Thursday. However, I was hoping someone from Futaba would offer some suggestions, Krysta?

Something made the throttle go to zero long enough to arm the ESC AFTER communications were lost from the transmitter during the range check. Then it naturally wanted to spool up since the curve in normal was flat 30%.

Synergy E7, Vbar 5 Pro, BLS255 & 256HV Hacker Turnado 530KV LE, Rail 696, CC120HV, WR Sup BEC | 18mz

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06-05-2012 10:09 PM  6 years agoPost 6
stevehof

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Oceanside, CA, USA

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I tried a range check on my own ship today. I am also using a Castle Creations ESC set to GOV and set rpm. Mine did the same thing as my friend's ship.

I powered up in range check mode and in normal condition, which has a 30% flat throttle to support the ESC governor. I walked out about the same distance as we did with my friend's ship and sure enough about the time we lost control of the swash, the ESC armed and soon after the ship spooled up. I had the blades off so I walked another 10-15 feet and the ship went into fail safe and the throttle shut down.

It is now obvious that between the time that the link is actually lost and the receiver goes fail safe there is a time when the signal is messed up enough to send a false zero throttle to the ESC that armed the ESC and then the signal went back to the 30% flat throttle curve and started the motor.

The bottom line is that it is NOT SAFE to range check a Futaba receiver unless the throttle channel is at zero. This may seem like a no brainer after the fact but most everyone at our field who flies electric with a Castle gov walks to the line in idle up and just arms ESC when everything is ready to go by going into throttle hold. So, doing the range check in a mode that did not have a zero throttle didn't seem like a dangerous thing to do. In fact, we tried the same experiment on a DX8 and even when the throttle was set to zero, the ESC did not arm in range check mode.

Synergy E7, Vbar 5 Pro, BLS255 & 256HV Hacker Turnado 530KV LE, Rail 696, CC120HV, WR Sup BEC | 18mz

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06-05-2012 11:05 PM  6 years agoPost 7
Sam2b

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Tacoma, WA

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Guys, you set the fail safe in your transmitter. If you have any doubts,
remove all blades (main and tail) and THEN do the range check. Someone could get hurt with all the power in these models.

http://manuals.hobbico.com/fut/8fg-2_4ghz-manual.pdf
Page 60
Test it on the workbench with no blades on (main and tail) by
turning off the transmitter. When the blades are removed you can leave the motor wires connected
the swash not responding anymore the ESC armed AND the blades started to spool up.

_Sam B_

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06-05-2012 11:33 PM  6 years agoPost 8
Phaedrus

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S. Orange County, California

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stevehof wrote:
The bottom line is that it is NOT SAFE to range check a Futaba receiver unless the throttle channel is at zero.
Your issue is not with the receiver, it is with the ESC and how it acts in the second between loss of signal and the start of failsafe. As I told you on the other forum the Futaba receivers will go into hold for ~1 second before failsafe activates. You would not want failsafe to happen at the slightest loss of signal. So the Futaba RX waits that 1 second and then says "Yep, I've lost contact with the TX. Go Failsafe".

But you are correct in the sense that you should never range check any radio with anything other than a zero throttle setting unless you know exactly what your ESC is going to do. Your failsafe is working exactly as it is designed to do. It is the ESC that is not playing nice. With power planes/helis you never do a power on range check unless the aircraft is restrained, why is an electric any different??

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06-05-2012 11:59 PM  6 years agoPost 9
stevehof

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Oceanside, CA, USA

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Sorry, just not buying your explanation at all. The head was turning for a good 4 to 5 seconds before failsafe kicked in. It nearly got to full rpm. 30% throttle would have been the 'last known' throttle input as you suggested in an earlier post. Castle ESC's will NOT arm at anything other than what they see as zero throttle and you have to calibrate low throttle before you can even use the ESC. Somehow the signal was messed up during the transition between proper linkup and failsafe. Futaba's failsafe system needs a tune up in this area.

Synergy E7, Vbar 5 Pro, BLS255 & 256HV Hacker Turnado 530KV LE, Rail 696, CC120HV, WR Sup BEC | 18mz

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06-06-2012 12:12 AM  6 years agoPost 10
Phaedrus

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S. Orange County, California

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That's fine. I explained how the system works and the cause of your issue. That's all I can do.

BTW - I just attempted to replicate your situation with three different aircraft, my 550 with an Align ESC, my pattern plane with a Jeti Spin 99 ESC, and another 62" (5s) plane with a Hacker Opto-Pro 70 ESC. I set a flat 30% curve, none armed with the TX on. Then I walked away in range check mode until I lost signal and went into failsafe. None of them spooled up when the signal was lost. Go figure. I took the blades and/or props off in all 3 aircraft. The receivers were a R617FS, R6203BB and a R7008SB.

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06-06-2012 01:03 AM  6 years agoPost 11
stevehof

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Oceanside, CA, USA

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Good for you. I'm glad your system and ESC's performed properly. The ESC's you use are not what most guys are using. Castle is probably the 'everyman's' ESC these days. The guy with the DX8 who also had a successful and uneventful trial range check today was using a Castle ICE 75.

I can assure you that my R6203SB and my friend's R6208SB did not play well with the Castle ESC during range check. If you want to lay this all on the ESC, be my guest. All I know is that the Castle ESC will not arm until it sees zero throttle. Some time during the transition between proper link and fail safe it saw zero throttle which should not have happened and the head ran for far longer than the 1 second you keep mentioning. As far as I'm concerned your explanation is still lacking substantiation. Just because the receiver works with other brands of ESCs does not mean the signal sequence and timing will not inadvertently arm some ESCs other than Castle ESCs.

Considering Murphy's Law, my friend should have been in throttle hold. However, the way he conducted his fail safe check should have been fine based on the knowledge that he had at the time.

Anyway, the point of this thread was to save someone else from possible injury and let Futaba know that there is a chance for a poor outcome on their fail safe check. So, in that context I'm satisfied at this point and we need not continue this thread. We will have to agree to disagree.

Synergy E7, Vbar 5 Pro, BLS255 & 256HV Hacker Turnado 530KV LE, Rail 696, CC120HV, WR Sup BEC | 18mz

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06-06-2012 01:06 AM  6 years agoPost 12
panzlflyer

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Goldsboro,NC,USA

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I would look at the Castle rather than the radio, there are some really weird issues to do with their throttle calibration, if you switch modes for example you have to do the calibrtion again or even thought it flies/arms etc it will suddenly cut the throttle etc in flight due to calibration issues.

Castle states that ANY other setting other than Zero (0000) in Normal can lead to a startup, its in their document section.
Your normal is not set up correctly for Govenor mode.

T700,450Pro,Spirit Pro,Beast+, Qav 500,Futaba18SZ

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06-06-2012 01:16 AM  6 years agoPost 13
Phaedrus

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S. Orange County, California

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My point is that what is causing your situation is how the CC ESC reacts during the range check. The easy solution (and most prudent one) is to range check in hold. That way you know nothing unexpected can happen regardless of what ESC you are using.

Over the years I have had many surprises using CC ESCs, which is part of the reason I no longer use them.

You keep trying to make it seem like it is the radio. Well, then why does it only appear happen with the CC ESC?? I mean, if it is the radio, then the ESC should not matter. Why not contact CC and ask them why their ESC does this?

AMA Leader Member
Go FASST, or Go Home!!
Team Futaba

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06-06-2012 03:12 AM  6 years agoPost 14
stevehof

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Oceanside, CA, USA

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Castle states that ANY other setting other than Zero (0000) in Normal can lead to a startup, its in their document section.
Your normal is not set up correctly for Governor mode
My normal mode is NOT the traditional setup for normal. I am just using the 'normal condition' so that I can have all three RPM ranges that are available in the Castle ESC gov mode. It is set up exactly as it should be for the castle governor operation.

I suspect the Zero 0000 throttle comment in the Castle document is referencing a traditional zero to 100 throttle curve and not a governor setup. Would you please provide a link to the Castle document you are referring to, Thanks.

Synergy E7, Vbar 5 Pro, BLS255 & 256HV Hacker Turnado 530KV LE, Rail 696, CC120HV, WR Sup BEC | 18mz

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06-06-2012 03:19 AM  6 years agoPost 15
stevehof

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Oceanside, CA, USA

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Why not contact CC and ask them why their ESC does this?
Because Castle, rightfully so, would just tell me they have no control over the signals going into their ESC.

Synergy E7, Vbar 5 Pro, BLS255 & 256HV Hacker Turnado 530KV LE, Rail 696, CC120HV, WR Sup BEC | 18mz

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06-06-2012 04:31 AM  6 years agoPost 16
panzlflyer

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Goldsboro,NC,USA

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http://www.castlecreations.com/supp...vernor_mode.pdf

Although if you dont have Auto rotation checked then this may not apply but in my testing some funky results were achieved.

T700,450Pro,Spirit Pro,Beast+, Qav 500,Futaba18SZ

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06-06-2012 07:19 AM  6 years agoPost 17
Phaedrus

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S. Orange County, California

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I suggest given how you and your friend have your helis set up that you do range checks with the heli in throttle hold.

So far this seems to only happen with a Castle ESC and not at least three other brands. I am not clear how this is the fault of the radio and not the ESC that is the outlier. Plus it only manifests itself if the range test is done with the heli in a normal mode with the governor set and a 30% flat throttle curve set. It does not happen in Hold with a 0% curve set.

AMA Leader Member
Go FASST, or Go Home!!
Team Futaba

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06-06-2012 01:06 PM  6 years agoPost 18
Pistol Pete

rrProfessor

Seffner, FL

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FWIW...

CC ESC
When using GOV mode, consider starting your NORM curve with a "0"-30-30-30-30.

A known safety features of the CC ESC is "not to arm" until a 1ms pulse width is detected and thats all.

@Phaedrus
Does all the ESC you tested work on the same principle as in they will not arm without low stick first or do they need additional inputs?

I've used ESC that require low-high-low to arm, thus the question.

@Panzflyer
Please share the funky results and what settings where used to "repeat" the funky part or a link.

**********

Subscribed given a friend ordered a 8J Tx and it appears to be the twin of the 8FG. I will be learning all about this radio soon.

Seems that by doing an "unusual" range check, a "glitch" may have been discovered. Had the range check been done with throtle hold, it would have gone unnoticed. (IF there is indeed a glitch)

ANYONE else with an 8FG and any CC ESC care to test and report?

~~Enjoying the hobby one flight at a time~~

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06-06-2012 01:38 PM  6 years agoPost 19
panzlflyer

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Goldsboro,NC,USA

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I found that any changes to settings seemed to knock out my throttle calibration and I would get odd starts, no starts and cutoffs in flight.
The cut off being the most annoying.
The op states that he had a 30 across the board, so when it failsafes it sees Zero if thats how you set failsafe in the radio, Arms, comes out of failsafe and sees 30 so goes to spool up.
All Zeros in Normal or at least 0 30 30 30 would prevent that if the throttle is at low or keeping it in Hold.

T700,450Pro,Spirit Pro,Beast+, Qav 500,Futaba18SZ

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06-06-2012 02:05 PM  6 years agoPost 20
Phaedrus

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S. Orange County, California

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All three of the ESCs I tried need to see low throttle to arm. But none acted like the CC in question. Which again leads me to conclude that this is not the radio doing but rather the ESC and how it is setup.

AMA Leader Member
Go FASST, or Go Home!!
Team Futaba

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