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HomeAircraftHelicopterEngines Plugs Mufflers Fuel › DONT!!!!buy ys120 thinking u will save money on fuel
02-06-2012 03:28 AM  6 years agoPost 41
knightofcarnage

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chicago

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Mike, I'm not sure about Byrons fuel, but i just check the prices on cool power MV 15% vs cool power 30%. And its 34.89% price difference. I would consider that a savings.

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXKRV4

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bi...er+30&search=Go

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02-06-2012 01:20 PM  6 years agoPost 42
DS 8717

rrProfessor

Here wishing i was somewhere else

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$38 a gallon for the 30% is a little steep dont you think.I get mine for $28 a gallon at my LHS...If i buy the 120 it isnt for fuel economy thats for sure....

YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE..IF YOU LIVE IT RIGHT THATS ALL YOU NEED

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02-06-2012 01:48 PM  6 years agoPost 43
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Well Tower is kinda high in general, so you'll always pay high-nitro prices for fuel there regardless. Tho I admit I've been getting my CP from them, it looks like amainhobbies carries it for significantly less. I'm going to keep shopping around and see what I come up with, but they have a good deal on it for about $75 a case....

Our LHSs are 50 miles away, so I kind of have to order my fuel online...

LS

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02-06-2012 01:50 PM  6 years agoPost 44
Mike Fortin

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USA

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Those fuel prices are not typical by any means.

Your comparison is not valid as that 15% is not suggested for the big block motors.

The correct comparison would be $22 vs. $26.

Locally, that same Cool Power 15% sells for $15 a gallon while the Cool Power 30% sells for $24.99...just an idea of how those prices are a bit off.

Have Rotors, Will Fly!

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02-06-2012 02:06 PM  6 years agoPost 45
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Your comparison is not valid as that 15% is not suggested for the big block motors.
As I told Ben, you're going to have to demonstrate this claim before I accept it.

Does OS explicitly recommend against using CP heli fuel in the engine? I honestly don't know, as I haven't seen the manual yet. No idea about the YS since I'm likely going with the OS. I'd bet, for liability reasons alone, neither would put a negative recommendation against a specific manufacturer like that in their manuals unless there were a very good reason.

But they might - if they do, you need to produce it. That's step 1.

As for step 2: You'll then have to show me that my engines won't last their normal service lives on the high-vis (or MV) CP heli formulations. And that they will only do so with the low-vis/"snake oil" fuels. My current 91HZ-R is at 20 hours now on the HV and MV with no problems, so the prospects for your claim are kind of grim so far. You'll also have to show me that my HZ-R doesn't run right on it, or has regulator problems due to the HV lube, which is the other part of your claim. Can't say I've observed anything like that in the last 20 hours either.

So,until then, I see no reason not to use those fuels. Going by general engine lubrication theory, the low-vis-only recommendation does have a down side - you don't want the oil _too_ thin. You have to use too much of it (robs power) and it doesn't protect against metal-to-metal contact as well as a correct viscosity (increases wear).

I do think the MV compromise has merit, tho, because of that - the idea is sound and in concert with what we know already about lubricating 2-stroke nitro burners. It gives you the advantages of both....

LS

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02-06-2012 03:22 PM  6 years agoPost 46
Mike Fortin

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USA

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The 15% Cool Power has 18% oil, The CP YS15% has roughly 22-23% oil, this is why the fuel costs more.

Folks have been trying the typical 15% CP and it works but not well making the engine harder to tune and of course run pretty hot.

Now, depending on the type of pilot you are that will play a MAJOR difference.

If your a sport pilot that is not demanding the most out of your engine then the typical 15% may work for you and work well. However, if you must have every last drop of performance from your motor the typical 15% will fall short.

The HZ-R hands down runs cooler and smoother when using a low viscosity oil in the fuel. Masters Blend (Byrons) was born out of necessity specifically for the HZ-R carb as the original 30% blend simply didn't work well and made the engine harder to tune and run hot.

Perhaps you simply trying the LV 15% will make you a believer as Ben, myself and anyone else can talk till we are blue in the face but until you try it you won't personally know.

FYI: YS does recommend using the 15% LV fuels from either Cool Power or Byrons (or any other mfg that is producing something similar).

Also as a YS Distributor, we also recommend combination as well.

Have Rotors, Will Fly!

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02-06-2012 03:51 PM  6 years agoPost 47
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Folks have been trying the typical 15% CP and it works but not well making the engine harder to tune and of course run pretty hot.
As I said before, I can't replicate this problem at all with my 91HZ-R. Neither have I been able to reproduce this with any other engine I've run CP in.

Do you have something more rigorous than just anecdotal evidence: "folks have been trying it and..."? How many engines have you run out on each fuel? What were the results - wear patterns, run times, etc.? Are the findings robust - just one or two different cases isn't really sufficient to truly establish a trend. You need a repeatable pattern.
If your a sport pilot that is not demanding the most out of your engine then the typical 15% may work for you and work well. However, if you must have every last drop of performance from your motor the typical 15% will fall short.
See my response to Ben on this. This ignores the possibility that the motor is simply being run too lean. Under those conditions, the proposed value of a "snake oil" is going to be greatly diminished - the success (or not) isn't conclusive evidence that it's a better fuel if the mixture isn't being set correctly. That has to be controlled for.

Again, my experience with CP or indeed any fuel, is a long service life, good running and good power. But I also know how to set my mixture.

Snake oil salesfolks have been trying to redefine "too lean" in order to sell fuel for many many years, so this is nothing new at all to me. All before Byrons have utlimately failed, so I doubt they finally figured out the magic formula after all this time and finally succeeded.
The HZ-R hands down runs cooler and smoother when using a low viscosity oil in the fuel. Masters Blend (Byrons) was born out of necessity specifically for the HZ-R carb as the original 30% blend simply didn't work well and made the engine harder to tune and run hot.
Again I can't replicate this fuel-type variation in the operation of my 91HZ-R and its regulator, or in the operating temperature. It runs perfectly on regular 15% CP airplane fuel. It also runs as perfectly on the 15% MV and I can practically promise you it would run just as perfectly on the RotorRage Masters Blend 15%.
Perhaps you simply trying the LV 15% will make you a believer as Ben, myself and anyone else can talk till we are blue in the face but until you try it you won't personally know.
The only thing that will convince me is actual evidence for your claim that these other fuels are better and the CP high vis fuels are inferior. Again you have to _show_ me that my engine will last longer and run better on it than it does with the CP HV fuels. You'll have to tell my current engine that it's done for in the next few flights if I don't switch and that it's running poorly and not up to its true standards lol.

Sorry. I don't take an expensive engine on Faith - only an actual demonstration of the claim your making will do it.
FYI: YS does recommend using the 15% LV fuels from either Cool Power or Byrons (or any other mfg that is producing something similar).

Also as a YS Distributor, we also recommend combination as well.
Ok, that's better - now we at least have YS recommendations to go on. Let's do the same for OS. Then we have to demonstrate how and why the fuels are better.

LS

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02-06-2012 04:08 PM  6 years agoPost 48
Mike Fortin

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USA

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I am not a very scientific guy, I don't think most people here are.

Let me put it in simple terms.

The only thing I care about is power and a cool running engine. If my engine is making monster power and staying cool, I know it will last a long time.

I do change rear bearings every 6 months or so just as a measure of good maintenance.

For me, I have seen, heard and felt the difference fuel makes in an engine and again for me everything that I've written as well as Dr. Ben has been dead on.

Results will of course vary, from pilot to pilot and location but for me what works well is what I've recommended.

Wear patterns mean nothing for me, hell by the time I would even begin to worry about it a new motor is out and the other is sitting on a shelf holding down some paper.

I've had my 91HZ-R's since the day they came out and they are still running strong as if it was the first day they were run, I must be doing something right.

Have Rotors, Will Fly!

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02-06-2012 04:24 PM  6 years agoPost 49
1tonv

rrApprentice

Pontiac, michigan. U.S.A.

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mike I gave up trying to explain to this guy. I like u fly the piss outta my motors and like I've said b4 not all fuels or oil packages are the same PERIOD . some people just don't get it, or they never fly hard enough to need it

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02-06-2012 04:53 PM  6 years agoPost 50
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Results will of course vary, from pilot to pilot and location but for me what works well is what I've recommended.
Forgive me, but in other words, you _can't_ really demonstrate the fuel-type differences/advantages you were claiming originally. That's kind of what I thought - in the past, when I've asked for evidence for similar claims, things have always gotten a bit silent.

So on that basis I regrettably have to reject the claim that RR and/or low-vis formulations are conclusively better than the high or multi-vis formulations at preventing wear, run better and so on.

It also is apparent that overly lean running isn't being controlled for even in the anecdotal evidence you and Ben have provided. I promise you, if you're setting the mixture on a 2-stroke for absolute max power, you absolutely _are_ too lean, period, full stop, end of story. That's an abusive situation that renders any other findings about the fuel used invalid. Anyone who's used 2-stroke engines for any amount of time knows this.
So I'm skeptical already because of that.
Wear patterns mean nothing for me, hell by the time I would even begin to worry about it a new motor is out and the other is sitting on a shelf holding down some paper.
Lol... but it is critical for me, since I usually have to make my engines last as long as possible for economic reasons. So take claims about oil quality and their effect on engine longevity pretty seriously and they need to be backed up with actual evidence.

LS

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02-06-2012 05:30 PM  6 years agoPost 51
Mike Fortin

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USA

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Well more oil would provide better cooling and a better lubrication package so 18% oil is less than 22% oil which means that 22% is better.

I highly doubt fuel manufacturers are throwing these numbers on bottles simply to waste ink or try and scam us.

At this very moment I can go run your 15% HV fuel and my 15% LV and there would absolutely be a difference in cooling and tuning, I have seen this hands on first hand.

This can go back and forth all day and with various people but the bottom line is what works in the field time after time when pushed to it's max.

We as pilots don't spend countless hours and days testing what works and doesn't, what fuels work best and what blades fly better to try and pull a fast one on people as your "snake oil" comment would suggest.

As I have said time and time again, if it works for you then stick with it but what you want out of an engine, fuel, blades and so on may not be what I or the next guy wants.

For me the LV fuel works best with a cold glow plug and the power is outstanding.

Have Rotors, Will Fly!

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02-06-2012 05:56 PM  6 years agoPost 52
CoronaL

rrKey Veteran

Winnebago IL

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I've pretty much had the same experience as Mike has. I've flown alot of different fuels, and most of them on YS motors too.

I do find YS motors to be a bit more forgiving of the oil package, at least from the tune/regulator standpoint vs the OS regulated motors, but the same holds true. the LV oil packages seem to run much better, and are far easier to tune. That said, I still ran CY30% wildcat with my YS91's for awhile and that's about as thick of an oil package as I've ever tried. Motors ran hotter and didn't seem to make as good of power though vs some newer LV oil blended fuels like Rotor rage, Rapicon, even Outrage etc...

In the end, many fuels will WORK, as in make the motor run, but if you spend $500 on a motor and $250 on a muffler, why split hairs about a few bucks more for fuel when it will make the motor run ALOT better?

Randy!!! I am the liquor

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02-06-2012 06:52 PM  6 years agoPost 53
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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We as pilots don't spend countless hours and days testing what works and doesn't, what fuels work best and what blades fly better to try and pull a fast one on people as your "snake oil" comment would suggest.
Well, unfortunately, that's a definite obligation borne by the claimant when a claim is made that one fuel/oil formulation is better than all the others period.
The one making the claim _must_ back it up with some objective evidence that the claim is true.

Otherwise, it's little more than a "snake oil" claim.
As I have said time and time again, if it works for you then stick with it but what you want out of an engine, fuel, blades and so on may not be what I or the next guy wants.

For me the LV fuel works best with a cold glow plug and the power is outstanding.
Then that's the only claim you can make - it works "for you" under your own individual circumstances.

But you are _not_ yet entitled to make the claim that the LV fuels are better _period_, which is what you started off with. The standard you have to meet there is much higher (burden of proof).

LS

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02-06-2012 07:00 PM  6 years agoPost 54
Mike Fortin

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USA

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The proof is in the pudding, or in this case the fuel.

LV is better in these specific applications.

Have Rotors, Will Fly!

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02-06-2012 07:04 PM  6 years agoPost 55
knightofcarnage

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chicago

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The CP YS15% has roughly 22-23% oil, this is why the fuel costs more.
I did not know there is a special blend for YS by CP. someone provide me a link, can't find it.

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02-06-2012 07:11 PM  6 years agoPost 56
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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The proof is in the pudding, or in this case the fuel.

LV is better in these specific applications.
Prove it, please.
You also have to explain the counterexample sitting here in my trex 700N...

LS

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02-06-2012 07:15 PM  6 years agoPost 57
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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I did not know there is a special blend for YS by CP. someone provide me a link, can't find it.
I'm still looking for that too, but didn't see anything on Morgans' site.

I have a feeling the requirement is folklore, like the RR master's blend "requirement" . The RR fuel just says it has a special blend especially for the YS - I don't think it's a hard requirement for that motor to run that formulation (tho Mike said it's suggested in the manual).

I may be getting an OS 105 soon and I'll finally be able to look at the manual for it to see what it says.

LS

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02-06-2012 07:27 PM  6 years agoPost 58
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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In the end, many fuels will WORK, as in make the motor run, but if you spend $500 on a motor and $250 on a muffler, why split hairs about a few bucks more for fuel when it will make the motor run ALOT better?
My rebuttal would be, if there's no substantive reason to believe the expensive fuel runs/lubricates/cools any better than the cheaper one, why spend the extra on the expensive one?

Anyway, the horse is probably long since dead on this, so I'll go ahead and bow out and not torture the list with this anymore. I think we've all made our points on this one....

LS

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02-06-2012 07:34 PM  6 years agoPost 59
CoronaL

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Winnebago IL

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I think they just mean LV oil package.

I think by asking Mike to "prove it", well how's he supposed to do that. I can agree with him, and I'm sure I can get several PRO pilots to back up his statement as well. The problem is, is that "proof" to you? Or do you need hard data, b/c honestly I don't know of how you would get any. I think most of us who have been to alot of funfly's and are really hardcore into the hobby can say that there is ALOT of information shared at events. Pilots talking about what's working and what's not for them. You can even sometimes try different fuels if that vendor is there supporting their product. Honestly, I would have never tried the Rapicon fuel I run now, if it hadn't been for me getting some free tanks to play with and test. I've also gotten to try RotorRage fuels at events, and if I didn't get a deal on Rapicon through a shop I know, I'd run the RotoRage in a heartbeat for sure. It's probably the highest quality fuel on the market along with 2-3 other(powermaster/Vp, Rapicon, and probably 1 or 2 more I'm forgetting-there may be others but I haven't tried them).

I also never believed an oil package could have a HUGE effect on how a motor performed, but it does. A "complete" oil package as I think of it, combines the right amounts of certain viscosities to lube the motor at certain designed situations ie rpms, compression, heat range of plugs etc... That oil package can either make or break a fuel IMO. 30% nitro with a good oil package and 30% nitro with a same % content, but not optimally designed oil package will run vastely different in SOME motors. Especially noticiable are regulated motors, ie YS and the OS -R motors. If you don't believe me, Mike, other's so be it. I'm not trying to E-thug anyone into making them believe I'm right. I think we are just trying to help educate people. Not be some "internet know it all". We're just trying to help.

What I'll say is this.. Will the YS120 run on other 15% nitro. sure it will start, fire, go, make power etc... Will it run better on a properly designed 15% nitro with LV oil package. I 100% believe it will. The difference may be more noticable to some than others, and those who don't notice much of a difference probably won't want to spend the premium for the RotoRage 15% nitro. IMO, and I'm a really CHEAP bastard, the $ for the RotoRage 15% seems quite high. Then again, it's a niche product too, so I can understand that to a point. I'm not trying to bash Byron/RotoRage as they are a GREAT company. Myself, I might be tempted to mix some 15% and 30% fuels to get a "better" oil package while still saving $, which should run better than a HV/MV oil package. CP 30% LV fuel runs very well in YS motors. I just don't care for CP myself as I don't like stains in my motors and I like my bearings to last longer than what my friends seem to get when running CP fuels vs what I run.

Randy!!! I am the liquor

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02-07-2012 02:02 AM  6 years agoPost 60
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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I think by asking Mike to "prove it", well how's he supposed to do that.
That's not my problem - I'm not the one making the claims about oil packages .
I can agree with him, and I'm sure I can get several PRO pilots to back up his statement as well. The problem is, is that "proof" to you
Well, it would have to be something that demonstrates the truth value of what is claimed. Namely, engines like my 91HZ-R last longer and run better (whatever that means) on the LV packages than they do on HV packages. I think that's the claim anyway.

So to prove that you would have to do something like:
- run some engines out (i.e. run them until they wear out) on each fuel controlling for everything else you could that could contribute to wear (i.e. the fuel type is the only variable) and note how long they last.
- control for mixture adjustment. I submit that tuning for absolute maximum power is too lean. Anyone who knows anything about 2-cycle engines understands that - that's clearly an abusive situation and will invalidate the results.
- demonstrate that engines, properly adjusted, loaded, cooled, etc. _repeatedly_ last longer and run better on the LV than they do on the HV. Or one particular formulation. The result has to be robust in other words, not just one or two positive (or negative) findings.

That would be a good start - then we'd have some actual controlled data to work with and not just heresay or general impressions, etc.

So something like that. It's not rocket science - look at your claim and back it up with some hard data.

That would be convincing to me.

Like I said, my current 91HZ-R is a rather damning counter example in the meanwhile, since it's already at 20 hours of operation on HV 15% CP (the 17% oil stuff) and a little bit of MV CP 15% with _none_ of the problems it should be having according to the claim about HV being inferior. No abnormal wear, no scuffing on the piston skirts, normal compression, and still runs just like it did after its first gallon. And it's not the first engine I've run that long (or longer) on regular old CoolPower with no problems.

So an explanation would have to be provided for that too.

Anyway, I'm beating the dead horse again, so I'll stop lol.

LS

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