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T-REX 700 › DFC head 5th flight boom strike
06-04-2012 01:07 AM  6 years agoPost 181
jrod4566

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Fort Worth, TX

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Just got back from field, I flew 1.25 gallons with the new DFC head on my 700n I am using the new super hard dfc 70096 dampners, running 1980 rpm head speed with vbar blue line full size with governor. ZERO issues flies great and response is very nice with vbar. I think as long as blades are very tight, head speed high, and use the new hard plastic dampners. Everything will be fine.

Just my experience and 2 cents.
Jdr

J-D
Team HeliProz

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06-04-2012 06:58 PM  6 years agoPost 182
rilopez825

rrVeteran

Pembroke Pines, FL

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jrod4566

I actually flew with the original dfc dampeners until last week.
2050rpm. Now I am using the newer align dampeners and everything still feels tight. I do run my blade grips rather tight.
It flies Great. I actually got to company a similar setup to my 700. same power same vbar and settings and the dfc heli was smoother and less stress on the motor. I'm going to install the new dfc swash as my friend bought an extra one. I'll see how that goes.

Richard

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06-04-2012 10:03 PM  6 years agoPost 183
v58 fuy

rrVeteran

UK - Kent

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Guys,

I posted this in a different thread about the DFC head system.

"Your not wrong for liking the DFC at all.

That was not my point, what I was trying to say, is that DFC is fine as an upgrade for those that want ultimate performance, but it should not be supplied as std equipment on new heli kits - which i think it will eventually be on all kits.

Align have done very well in the hobby by appealing to as many customers as possible. However the DFC system is really designed for experienced pilots, and even then those that can appreciate the difference - you might say this is 5-10% of all pilots.

The rest of the customer base doesn't need DFC, but will get it as std equipment starting with the 700.

If you supply all heli's with light weight paddles, then simply dial the controls down if you don't want their performance - you cannot dial back the DFC system. If you choose slower head speed, your blades are a bit loose, or your dampers a bit worn - you will dramatically increase the chance of a crash, which other std upgrades don't do.

Align will eventually supply all kits with the DFC head, this means everybody will have to run high headspeeds, tight blades and hard dampers - the exact opposite of what learners and intermediate pilots need/want.

Again all IMHO

David

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06-06-2012 06:00 AM  6 years agoPost 184
The man

rrVeteran

at home

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There are other helis in the market that is not and likely will not come with DFC style head in the future. The Xxtreme 700, Ballistic, Whiplash, Synergy E7 just to name a few. For Sports pilots, those will likely be a better choice.

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06-06-2012 11:50 PM  6 years agoPost 185
v58 fuy

rrVeteran

UK - Kent

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So from your reply are you saying Align will in future sell heli's for 3d only?

David

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06-07-2012 12:09 AM  6 years agoPost 186
coolice

rrKey Veteran

Northamptonshire, England

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Hey.

There's a bit of a flaw in your assumption that only experienced pilots should have the DFC head, reason being if a relative beginner has one fitted to their model, then he or she will not be performing the type of manouvers which could cause a boom strike when running a low rotor rpm.
As and when they do progress within the hobby, then they will increase the head speed anyway to achieve the level of control response that 3D requires and so over coming any problems associated with the DFC.

If beginners wouldn't eventually benefit from a DFC head as their flying skills increase, then we might as well tell them to stick with a flybar as well.
Also there is nothing to dial down with a DFC head, the model can still be setup docile for a beginner, or agile for hard 3D.

As with any heli used for 3D the less parts it uses the better, a DFC head setup has fewer parts and so to some degree helps keep repair costs down.
.

Ian Contessa
Team Robbe SchluterUK
Midland Helicopters

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06-07-2012 04:55 AM  6 years agoPost 187
knightofcarnage

rrElite Veteran

chicago

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There's a bit of a flaw in your assumption that only experienced pilots should have the DFC head, reason being if a relative beginner has one fitted to their model, then he or she will not be performing the type of manouvers which could cause a boom strike when running a low rotor rpm.
As and when they do progress within the hobby, then they will increase the head speed anyway to achieve the level of control response that 3D requires and so over coming any problems associated with the DFC.
If beginners wouldn't eventually benefit from a DFC head as their flying skills increase, then we might as well tell them to stick with a flybar as well.
Also there is nothing to dial down with a DFC head, the model can still be setup docile for a beginner, or agile for hard 3D.
As with any heli used for 3D the less parts it uses the better, a DFC head setup has fewer parts and so to some degree helps keep repair costs down.
Could not agree more. I believe be the Head tracks so well, it would be easier to setup for someone new to the hobby.

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06-07-2012 08:40 AM  6 years agoPost 188
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta, Canada

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Whoa wait.. What??. E7, whiplash, xtreme and others without DFC head will be more suited for sport fliers are you serious with that statement or what??

This whole "Direct from Compass" thing really has some people brainwashed to say least wow!!!

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

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06-07-2012 08:47 AM  6 years agoPost 189
v58 fuy

rrVeteran

UK - Kent

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Guys,

Thanks for your comments, but please your going to have to try harder, this is too easy.

Firstly, if you read my earlier comments you will see that I have no issue with the DFC system being available as an upgrade for the small number of pilots at the top of our sport who can appreciate it's design - but that for the masses, it has many downsides, not least the worst of all a potential to crash.

Someone mentioned that Logo, Synergy, MA, and CY don't use a DFC style head - wonder why that is??

Compass do have a head design like DFC called TracX, but their design is very different to Align's. Firstly their head is not as low as Align, thereby almost completely elliminating the potential for boom strikes. Also their head design incorporates two delrin rods, which will absorb a degree of head flexing, and act as mechanical fuses in the event of a crash.

Now back to DFC, and the comments you made about learners and intermediates, headspeed etc...

DFC requires hard dampers because the head is very low on the main shaft, and the head has no way to absorb any movement of the feathering spindle etc.. unlike the Compass design.

Hard dampers require a high headspeed to prevent wobbling - you cannot simply run a lower headspeed with hard dampers. And you cannot run soft dampers on the DFC system, because it can't cope with flex like conventional heads can.

Sure you can run the DFC system with hard dampers, and a high headspeed - then turn down the ATV and add expo for learners or intermediates, but this is terribly inefficient, and probably intimidating. Also how do you tell a pilot of this experience, when his/her blades are too loose, or dampers too worn.

As for non-experts not being able to perform moves likely to cause a boom strike, many relatively easy intermediate moves can easily generate the forces needed for this - have you ever seen the over reactions of a novice pilot try to recover from a difficult situation?

Lastly, the issue of potential for reduced crash costs - you can already see on here, people that have crashed a DFC head system and you are likely to have to replace potentially all those expensive aluminium parts including the blade grips - because as I said at the beginning their is no mechanical fuse in the system.

OMHO

David

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06-07-2012 09:28 AM  6 years agoPost 190
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta, Canada

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Note to self "David" understands wth he's talking about.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

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06-07-2012 10:37 PM  6 years agoPost 191
TomC

rrKey Veteran

Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia

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"Note to self "David" understands wth he's talking about."

I agree 100%. Thanks for the very good explanation David.

If you buy a new V3 700 what is the best/cheapest way to convert the head back to V2 non-dfc? Thanks.

Cheers,
TomC

Nqx,Mcpx-BL,300x,450x,500x,550x
Ion-x, 10s ,SS
TT X50E 10s, HC3-Sx

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06-09-2012 08:05 AM  6 years agoPost 192
v58 fuy

rrVeteran

UK - Kent

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just trying to point out the facts.

David

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06-09-2012 06:28 PM  6 years agoPost 193
rcflyerheli

rrKey Veteran

Granbury, TX USA

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Find someone who has made the conversion and get their old head block and shaft???

Goblin 700, Trex 700DFC, Gaui X7, Logo 690SX, Logo 600SX; Trex 470 Trex 500
Amain Team Rep

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06-09-2012 09:10 PM  6 years agoPost 194
coolice

rrKey Veteran

Northamptonshire, England

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Now back to DFC, and the comments you made about learners and intermediates, headspeed etc...

DFC requires hard dampers because the head is very low on the main shaft, and the head has no way to absorb any movement of the feathering spindle etc.. unlike the Compass design.
Agreed
Hard dampers require a high headspeed to prevent wobbling - you cannot simply run a lower headspeed with hard dampers. And you cannot run soft dampers on the DFC system, because it can't cope with flex like conventional heads can.
Don't fully agree. This is the general thought when running hard dampers, however you need to go very low on the head speed to generate the wobbles. I've seen a 700E DFC'd flown on 6s and there was no wobble what so ever.
I recently had a conversation about wobbles with others and this affliction has been carried over from the flybarred days, now it was considered that perhaps it wasn't the rotor disk wobbling due to hard dampers, but the flybar flapping about at low speeds upsetting the head. Thus causing the model to wobble.
Also on my own machine I have not seen any wobbles at the end of an auto and I am running a hard damper setup. I don't have a DFC head, but it should be a lot worse with the older and taller V1 FBL head if any wobbles were to set in.
Sure you can run the DFC system with hard dampers, and a high headspeed - then turn down the ATV and add expo for learners or intermediates, but this is terribly inefficient, and probably intimidating. Also how do you tell a pilot of this experience, when his/her blades are too loose, or dampers too worn.
No need, the amount of new models I've flown with new and hard dampers at low speeds shows me that within reason you can run low rotor rpm's without problem.
As for non-experts not being able to perform moves likely to cause a boom strike, many relatively easy intermediate moves can easily generate the forces needed for this - have you ever seen the over reactions of a novice pilot try to recover from a difficult situation?
In which case the rotor rpm will have been increased to provide the necassary control authority to attempt these type of manouvers.
Let's be honest if you want to try the type of manouvers which will load the head, then you need the machine setup to do it. This means a faster rotor rpm than what was used while learning, which is what the model needs to run for this more advanced flying. Align state rotor rpms in their manuals.
Lastly, the issue of potential for reduced crash costs - you can already see on here, people that have crashed a DFC head system and you are likely to have to replace potentially all those expensive aluminium parts including the blade grips - because as I said at the beginning their is no mechanical fuse in the system.
This will be the same for any non-DFC heads to, at the end of the day it all comes down to how bad the crash was in the first place. Even the newer V2 two piece blade grips can bend and need replacing, links bend and ping off into the distance.
In reality this is a none starter as any crash can potentially cause major damage no matter what rotor head style you are using, no crash is a soft one in most cases
OMHO

David

.

Ian Contessa
Team Robbe SchluterUK
Midland Helicopters

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06-09-2012 11:45 PM  6 years agoPost 195
v58 fuy

rrVeteran

UK - Kent

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Ian,

Clearly we have a classic case of a sponsored pilot defending the manufacturer, against a club flyer trying to represent reality.

I welcome your comments about my post, but notice you've ignored certain parts, agreed with certain parts and disagreed with a small part of it.

Lets consider your response and view it as unbiased (but I don't think it is):

1) You ignored my first comment:

"Firstly, if you read my earlier comments you will see that I have no issue with the DFC system being available as an upgrade for the small number of pilots at the top of our sport who can appreciate it's design - but that for the masses, it has many downsides, not least the worst of all a potential to crash."

2) You ignored my next comment, and understand why for this one:

"Someone mentioned that Logo, Synergy, MA, and CY don't use a DFC style head - wonder why that is??"

You then corrected me by saying that hard dampers and tight blades will not cause wobbles at lower headspeeds - god knows how many expert statements could be provided to confirm this fact.

You corrected me by saying that you have to run a higher headspeed, before you are able to load the head up - god knows where this has come from, it is quite easy to load the head at modest rpm, high rpm is only needed for hard 3D which comes back to my earlier part of 5-10% of pilots will benefit from DFC (which by the way I include you in).

For the majority who pay for the full cost of parts, crash costs will almost certainly be more with DFC heads, as there is NO mechanical fuse, like conventional style heads (conventional links are designed to pop off or bend in a crash and provide the mechanical fuse).

The bottom line Ian is, will a DFC equipped heli fly better than another brand such as Logo, Synergy or CY without DFC - I will answer this for you, and the asnwers is NO. Will Align make more money from DFC - answer yes, I see they've even lauched a new DFC swashplate, guess the old one didn't work either??

Before you say I'm anti Align, I'm not as I currently fly an Align heli - but DFC for the masses isn't needed.

Lastly I want it noted that I don't include the Compass TracX head system in my comments, as it's been designed properly. It is mounted higher up on the main shaft in relation to the tail boom, thereby practically eleminating boom strikes no matter what headspeed someone runs. It also includes delrin rods to absorb head movements and provide a mechanical fuse in a crash.

David

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06-10-2012 08:08 PM  6 years agoPost 196
coolice

rrKey Veteran

Northamptonshire, England

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David.

As you have so many paragraphs again, I will answer your post point by point as it's easier. Also I’d like to say I’m not looking for this response to come across as a personal attack towards you, but merely rectify any misconceptions as best as I can.
Ian,
Clearly we have a classic case of a sponsored pilot defending the manufacturer, against a club flyer trying to represent reality.
Well, that's your opinion which you are entiteld to.
Please don’t take this personally, but I see a club flier/forum member who believes that his thoughts are correct and is now trying to divert attention away from what coudl be actual reality by calling into play my association with the trade through sponsorship.

Yes I am sponsored, I fly for the UK distributer of Align, but I will not promote a product if I feel isn't any good, as I will only tarnish my own reputation. Also in this topic I have not tried to sell the product, they do that on their own, I’m just helping you go even more off topic as we're not talking about the DFC failure as per the topic anymore, but now discussing your opinion that a DFC head is of no use to a beginner and could in fact cause them more problems. But the fact of the matter remains that being a beginner or not, a model setup used for a specific flight envelope, will need to be setup right to deal with those manoeuvres. It doesn't matter if you're flying Align, MA, TT or Compass etc. etc. all these models can have problems if not setup accordingly. Ok, a model with a lower rotor head will find any short falls in rotor rpm, blade tightness, damper tightness etc quicker and could give problems, but this logic is not limited to Align only.

Boom strikes are not a new thing, even the old flybarred machines can be made to boom strike if you are not careful or something is off with the setup.

Today most new fliers want a machine which will last them a long time and the current crop of models on the market will do just that, a DFC’d Align machine is no different. Just because it has a DFC head as standard does not make it any less attractive or out of reach for the average club flier, it just means they won’t outgrow it so quickly perhaps.
I welcome your comments about my post, but notice you've ignored certain parts, agreed with certain parts and disagreed with a small part of it.
As I do yours, but I didn't feel the whole post was absolutely necessary for me to comment on for one reason, which is that I have no experience with the other models and so it would be silly for me to comment on something I do not know. Plus why should we, we’re talking Align DFC heads/models.
Lets consider your response and view it as unbiased (but I don't think it is):.
Again this is your opinion due to my sponsorship, meaning that I am incapable of having an unbiased conversation. Which could not be further from the truth, just because I fly for one particular make does not mean I have the attitude of "Align is the only make you should fly!" I admire all makes and enjoy finding out about new developements. I just prefer Align
At the end of the day we buy ours models because we like them and not because we are told to, this is how I went to Align orignally, I wanted to fly one.
1) You ignored my first comment:
"Firstly, if you read my earlier comments you will see that I have no issue with the DFC system being available as an upgrade for the small number of pilots at the top of our sport who can appreciate it's design - but that for the masses, it has many downsides, not least the worst of all a potential to crash.".

2) You ignored my next comment, and understand why for this one:

"Someone mentioned that Logo, Synergy, MA, and CY don't use a DFC style head - wonder why that is??".
But this is my point, in that can a beginner also not appreciate the future benefits a DFC head can bring?
This is where I am questioning your posts, as by nature a helicopter has the potential to crash and lead to expensive repair bills, so whether a DFC is fitted or not makes no difference. The fact it is fitted means that for certain flight conditions specific criteria needs to be met, but this is usual and goes back to what I have written above in that a model needs to be setup to perform a given class of manoeuvre.
You then corrected me by saying that hard dampers and tight blades will not cause wobbles at lower headspeeds - god knows how many expert statements could be provided to confirm this fact.
Let’s put it this way, I regularly fly with a 3D Masters pilot who has tight blades (for blades stops) and hard head dampers (DFC head fitted) and even at the end of any auto I have not seen any wobbles. Many factors can cause the wobbles to set in, so it’s not only limited to damper tightness alone in light of the above.
Different models exhibit different traits, some dont like stiff dampers, others may get away with it.
You corrected me by saying that you have to run a higher head speed, before you are able to load the head up - god knows where this has come from, it is quite easy to load the head at modest rpm, high rpm is only needed for hard 3D which comes back to my earlier part of 5-10% of pilots will benefit from DFC (which by the way I include you in)
I think we might be getting a little carried away in comparing what is necessary for any form of spirited flying and what it needed for DFC to help alleviate problems. For aerobatics the head speed is generally increased as you well know, it may be slightly higher for a DFC model, but still it’s increased.
For the majority who pay for the full cost of parts, crash costs will almost certainly be more with DFC heads, as there is NO mechanical fuse, like conventional style heads (conventional links are designed to pop off or bend in a crash and provide the mechanical fuse).
There is still a fuse to some degree, the plastic link will/could give in a crash. In any case, no one wants to crash and as we well know the ones we consider to be a soft crash probably cost us more than a worse looking one.
The bottom line Ian is, will a DFC equipped heli fly better than another brand such as Logo, Synergy or CY without DFC - I will answer this for you, and the asnwers is NO. Will Align make more money from DFC - answer yes, I see they've even lauched a new DFC swashplate, guess the old one didn't work either??
No, I agree that a DFC will not make a model fly better on its own, the pilot on the end of the sticks makes a a heli fly well. The question is would a DFC’d model in the hands of someone who could exploit it work better? I think in this day and age the FBL controllers are what makes or breaks a model, as without this important bit of electronics working well, then the model itself will not be nice to fly.
You could have a top flight machine let down by its electronics.
Before you say I'm anti Align, I'm not as I currently fly an Align heli - but DFC for the masses isn't needed.
Lastly I want it noted that I don't include the Compass TracX head system in my comments, as it's been designed properly. It is mounted higher up on the main shaft in relation to the tail boom, thereby practically eleminating boom strikes no matter what headspeed someone runs. It also includes delrin rods to absorb head movements and provide a mechanical fuse in a crash.
David
Cool, we all love Align
Now I’m not bashing just having a general chat, but didn’t Compass even have problems initially from memory? It’s a new design of rotor system which came with problems that had to be ironed out. The question is, are other manufacturers holding out on their own versions and watching the problems unearthed and then fixed by the trend setters?

Anyhow, sorry to have helped pull thread off topic. I've got no more to say on the benefits and cons of DFC.
.

Ian Contessa
Team Robbe SchluterUK
Midland Helicopters

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06-10-2012 11:25 PM  6 years agoPost 197
TomC

rrKey Veteran

Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia

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Ian, David,

Good to see a debate on this issue.

Bottom line for me is that I do not feel 'comfortable' with the current DFC design. So, until proven otherwise, and/or re-designed, I will not be purchasing any model (not just Align btw) that only includes a DFC head.

Cheers,
TomC

Nqx,Mcpx-BL,300x,450x,500x,550x
Ion-x, 10s ,SS
TT X50E 10s, HC3-Sx

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06-11-2012 02:10 AM  6 years agoPost 198
nobato1

rrApprentice

USA

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"Today most new fliers want a machine which will last them a long time and the current crop of models on the market will do just that, a DFC’d Align machine is no different. "

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06-11-2012 03:14 AM  6 years agoPost 199
knightofcarnage

rrElite Veteran

chicago

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For the majority who pay for the full cost of parts, crash costs will almost certainly be more with DFC heads, as there is NO mechanical fuse, like conventional style heads (conventional links are designed to pop off or bend in a crash and provide the mechanical fuse).
There is still a fuse to some degree, the plastic link will/could give in a crash. In any case, no one wants to crash and as we well know the ones we consider to be a soft crash probably cost us more than a worse looking one.
There is a somewhat built in weak points in the DFC systems. Ether the linkage is going to go or Holder arms will strip out the main grip. Now i know ppl complain about destroying there main grips. But i personally rater destroy the main grip then strip and/or burn out a $150 servo.

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06-11-2012 05:19 AM  6 years agoPost 200
Band1086

rrElite Veteran

Kennewick, Wa. USA

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I just got a Compass 7HV this weekend, the "DFC" type head on it has somewhat flexible control rods going to the head, plus they mount the control arm mechanism to the blade grip arm with a 4mm bolt. I doubt it will ever give the problems spoken of on this thread. I just though that was interesting. Leave it to the Germans to design it right the first time...

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T-REX 700 › DFC head 5th flight boom strike
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