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HomeAircraftHelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsFutaba CGY › Consolidated V1.2 tips
03-11-2012 04:30 PM  6 years agoPost 121
rexxigpilot

rrProfessor

Florida

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MrHillBilly, that is a sign that your blades are not tracking perfectly. For most 3D flying you need to have the blades fairly tight. The blades will still be able to lead and lag even when very tight. Your blade tracking issue is being masked by loosening the blades. It would be best for you to get them tracking better.

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03-11-2012 05:37 PM  6 years agoPost 122
Gator1

rrApprentice

Thonotosassa, Fl - Usa

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I have found the blades track better on all 3 of my fbl machines and when I have had a tracking issue it was due to thrust bearings in the grips needing to be greased.

Just my opinion. Now this is after the tracking was set up right to begin with.

T.O.R.C.H.S. Orlando Member And T.R.A.C.S. Tampa Member

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03-11-2012 07:25 PM  6 years agoPost 123
Mr.HillBilly

rrVeteran

Salesville, OH - USA

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Well 6 tanks of messing around today, good luck and bad luck. I think I am going to haft to move the gyro to back of the bird where I had it before. I was trying to keep everything under the canopy to protect it more but it is only about 2" away from the top of the motor. When I had it mounted at the back of the bird it was not as picky on motor tuning and such so looks like it is going back again. I tried some 3M foam tape and it helped at different times but I have had that stuff come loose more than once so I am not going to trust it.

Good info on the blade tracking. At times today I had the blades extra tight and it was rock solid.

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03-12-2012 03:44 AM  6 years agoPost 124
Gator1

rrApprentice

Thonotosassa, Fl - Usa

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Glad the info helped.

T.O.R.C.H.S. Orlando Member And T.R.A.C.S. Tampa Member

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03-12-2012 04:49 AM  6 years agoPost 125
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

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Yes, the 750 isn't a particular fan of out of track blades or blades with uneven blade tension. Also, if you do an auto, you may see a slight wobble for a few seconds after lift off while the blades return to lagging having been leading during the auto.

Ben Minor

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

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03-13-2012 10:10 PM  6 years agoPost 126
plantone

rrVeteran

Perth wa

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HI All

This tread is awesome and learning a great deal.

I have a queston as im new to the 750. I have one on a Kasama srimok electric and its great gyro gains 50% and it flies great, i used the same settings on my newly built Goblin that flew this weekend for the first time and the aileron gyro gain seems ok at 50% but the elevator gyro gain i had to reduce to 38% to stop the model nodding in the hover and foward flight, is this normal ???? or should i reduce or increase the I & D gains on elevator only to get the gyro gain back to 50%

Kind Regards

Wayne

Mongoose
Srimok FAI
SAB Goblin
ENV Rave Next D 450

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03-13-2012 11:36 PM  6 years agoPost 127
plantone

rrVeteran

Perth wa

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OK i have just done some more reading of this post and noticed the total AFR in my model is 65 ele and 70 ail to get the 8 degrees cyclic set in the 750 and with 100% atv in the radio. If i move the balls out on the servo arms to get more travel meaning this number will now come down to the recommended 50-60 area, this will surely mean my gyro gains will need to go down aswell but i am already at 50% on ail and 38% on Ele.How do i acheive getting both numbers correct??? is this were the D and I gains come in, im not sure here.

Cheers Wayne

Mongoose
Srimok FAI
SAB Goblin
ENV Rave Next D 450

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03-14-2012 12:18 AM  6 years agoPost 128
eppler

rrApprentice

Baytown, TX

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I went out one hole on my ELE servo horn and still run my gains at 80% but results may differ on different heli.

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03-14-2012 04:20 AM  6 years agoPost 129
gorn

rrElite Veteran

Western Australia

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plantone
No, its the reverse of that.
The closer you are in ATV ideal range, the higher your gain can be, as its operating correctly within its given range.

On ele, is it a constant nod, or does it come and go, or is it only after you give a stick input and stopping the movement?

For the love of the hobby

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03-14-2012 04:50 AM  6 years agoPost 130
plantone

rrVeteran

Perth wa

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GORN

it is a constant nod just like when the tail gyro gain is too high the tail wags. Im not sure exactly what the D & I gains do and or which one to adjust first.

Cheers

Mongoose
Srimok FAI
SAB Goblin
ENV Rave Next D 450

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03-14-2012 04:58 AM  6 years agoPost 131
gorn

rrElite Veteran

Western Australia

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Try reducing your D gain down to 50% on elevator, fly.
If the nod is gone, start bringing your main gain up to the same level as aileron if you can.
Just go up 10% at a time.
If you can get the same gain as aileron, but it doesnt feel locked in, increase your I gain 10% at a time until you get the feel/holding power you want.

For the love of the hobby

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03-14-2012 05:19 AM  6 years agoPost 132
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

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This is a puzzling situation. If you had to drive the 750 swash AFR's up as high as you did to achieve 8 degrees of cyclic, then by defintion the mechanical gain in the system is pretty low, yet your gyro total gains are much, much lower than I would expect with that kind of inherent resolution. You are correct that by going out on the servo arms to drop the AFR's down into the 50-60% range, you would expect to have to lower the electronic gain because the larger servo arm radii raises the system's mechanical gain.

Some other questions.....I presume you are using V1.2 firmware. What is the head response value for AIL and ELE set to? Have you double checked the driving frequency for the cyclic servos is set to 285Hz (assuming Futaba digitals)? What servos are you using and at what voltage? All linkages are free of bind? Thrust races in the head are installed correctly? What blades?

Proportional (overall) gain is composed of I and D gain. I gain is used to adjust the ability of the system to hold the model in a given pathway or line. Excessive I gain usually shows up in a bounce at the end of abrupt ELE input. For ELE I gain, run no more than need to keep the model tracking well in FFF manuevers. Hurricanes are a good test as is pulling level from a fast 45D angle dive to level and then checking to see if the model tries to raise its nose. D gain is an interesting animal with V1.2 firmware. When the firmware was revised, the commonplace 3D set ups with stiff head dampening and ultra fast servos effectively negated the need for much electronic differential gain. Values above 100% are rarely acceptable, and users should not be afraid to go down to or below 50%. I gain for both AIL and ELE is best kept in the 40's. The detrimental effects of excessive I gain are far more apparent on the pitch than roll axis.

Ben Minor

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

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03-14-2012 06:03 AM  6 years agoPost 133
plantone

rrVeteran

Perth wa

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Hi Ben

i am currently using v1.01, the servos are align610 12kg and running them on 6.6 life. I have just moved the balls out to the next hole and now have 8.5 degrees cyclic on both. The ail is now 51 travel and the ele 55 so they are atleast in the correct range now.
Servo hz is 1520 not sure on head response where do i find this is in v1.01.?? my D gain is default to 200% is this correct.

Yes all linkages are free moving

Blades are SAB that came with the Goblin.

Mongoose
Srimok FAI
SAB Goblin
ENV Rave Next D 450

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03-14-2012 06:13 AM  6 years agoPost 134
plantone

rrVeteran

Perth wa

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ive just been thru both the basic and expeert menus and cannot find I.gain or head response, is it still safe to lower the D.gain from 200 down to 50 ????

also there is no ail to ele mix, when i do right rolls the nose pitches up, is this added in the v1.2

Wayne

Mongoose
Srimok FAI
SAB Goblin
ENV Rave Next D 450

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03-14-2012 07:43 AM  6 years agoPost 135
plantone

rrVeteran

Perth wa

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ive just got back from test flying and i can say that getting the 50 - 60 travels makes a world of differance now the rolls are straight and dont pitch up when rolling right, have the gyro gains at 58% now on both ail and ele and i tried the D.gain down at 50 and although it flew ok it was hard to hover as it did not want to lock in anymore, the other thing i noticed is at a slow head speed 1650 rpm the model oscilated not wobbled but kinda went round in circles under the head if that makes sense, this was in normal mode then in idle up 1 1800 rpm it got a sideways shimmer and in idle up 2 2050 rpm it was smooth but not locked in and wondered in the hover. Now i flew 5 batteries thru this at the weekend with default settings and the aeros were crap but the hover was awesome with no shimmer or oscilation could this be caused by the gyro gain now being raised from 38 to 58 on ele and 50 to 58 on ail. ??? i ran out of light tonight and only flew one battery so did not get a chance to reduce the gyro gain or increase the D.gain back to 200% default to see if it hovered ok like the weekend.

Wayne

Mongoose
Srimok FAI
SAB Goblin
ENV Rave Next D 450

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03-14-2012 01:28 PM  6 years agoPost 136
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

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Wayne,

If you can, update to V1.2 firmware. Though you guys are approaching your cool season, running those servos at greater than 6V is ill advised. The head response parameter is found in 1.2 and will not only improve the way the model flies but also reduce the current consumption of the system. The suggestion for D gain does not apply for 1.1 firmware. Building on what Aaron had said, though the relationship between mechanical and electronic gain is as I described, I think having the swash AFR's so far out of range was pretty much disrupting the proper function of the whole PID and making the model fly really poorly. If you'll do the firmware update, I can suggest further changes and really get that model flying well for you.

Ben Minor

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

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03-14-2012 08:03 PM  6 years agoPost 137
plantone

rrVeteran

Perth wa

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Thanks Ben

My mate is sending the dongle thingy i need to do the update so it will be Friday before it gets done, i will let you know when its done.

Many thanks for your help.

Wayne

Mongoose
Srimok FAI
SAB Goblin
ENV Rave Next D 450

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03-15-2012 04:50 AM  6 years agoPost 138
plantone

rrVeteran

Perth wa

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HI Ben

The dongle arrived today which is great so im just doing the update now and will be going for a fly do you want me to make some changes first or should i go fly and let you what what i have set up and how it goes then make changes accordingly.

The head response is 2 by default
the servos are at 285 hz

Mongoose
Srimok FAI
SAB Goblin
ENV Rave Next D 450

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03-15-2012 08:03 AM  6 years agoPost 139
plantone

rrVeteran

Perth wa

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Hi Ben

I have updated the firmware to v1.2 what a mission that was i changed the rot his from 16 to 7
the I.gain from 30 to 45
the D.gain from 140 to 50 and tried 100
incresed the gyro gains from 58 to 75 on ele and ail
control feel on ele to 7
head response i tried both 2 and 3 and put it back to 2
flight mode from 3 to 4
AFR are now both at 58
tail gyro gain 47%

This model is now flying pretty well in forward flight and aeros, rolls are the best ive done, loops track well with no flaring at the bottom.
at 1700 rpm in the hover i still have a forward backward nodding i cannot get rid of even when the gyro gain is down to 38%
In idle 1 1900rpm the whole heli shimmers
idle 2 2100rpm the model is smooth with model being quiet sensitive.

Although the model flies well i cant understand why since moving the servo arm balls out 4mm to reduce the AFR i now get the nodding and oscilation, im tempted to put them back to the inner hole and leave the setting as is but then i wont get the 8 degrees cyclic the thing is now that i have changed too many settings and firmware but i guess theres no harm trying unless you have other suggestion to try first.

Wayne

Mongoose
Srimok FAI
SAB Goblin
ENV Rave Next D 450

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03-17-2012 05:52 AM  6 years agoPost 140
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

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Tell me; at the current swash AFR, does the model have the desired max pitch and roll rate at 100% transmitter dual rate?

The controller is fighting the head. Can you post a short video of the nodding behavior for me at 1700 and 1900 rpm?

Ben Minor

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

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HomeAircraftHelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsFutaba CGY › Consolidated V1.2 tips
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