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HomeRC & Power✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsFutaba CGY › Consolidated V1.2 tips
03-29-2012 01:48 AM  7 years ago
JPhillips

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Waco, TX

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So if I go in to ~8 my AFRs should subsequently increase to a more appropriate level hopefully ridding myself of this plaguing shake.
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03-29-2012 02:37 AM  7 years ago
plantone

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Perth wa

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Why does the AFR for pitch have to stay within the 50 - 60 ?? or does it. it is not a stabilized channel. its not always practical if you want to get more than 13 degrees pitch especially as the electric heli get more powerful and want to run 16 degrees or so pitch .Mongoose
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03-29-2012 02:59 AM  7 years ago
Dr.Ben

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Pitch AFR at a little under 50 should not be a big problem. Pitch AFR well above 60% pushes the servos far off center at higher collective angles before cyclics are touched. The further you move rotary servos off center, the more you start to deal with the liabilities of differential travel. Keeping the cyclic swash AFR's in the specified range helps ensure the total gyro gain will be high enough formthemsystmemtomfly well.

I cannot recall the exact explanation given to me as to why that 50-60% range is important, but it has to do with optimizing the control algorithm by achieving desired pitch and roll rate with servo travel within a certain range of the total available. Though for different reasons, every FBL system on the market has a sweet range for travel versus pitch that needs to be achieved for the systems fly well. Even FB eCCPM needs to keep swash values within a certain range for optimum resolution and minimization of interaction from the effects of differential travel.

Ben Minor
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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03-29-2012 05:51 AM  7 years ago
RockyS

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Vancouver,WA

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On the swash afr's is it critical to have it at 60 at the highest or is it to get 8 degree's in that range?
Mine is set at 75 (maybe higher) to get me 12-13 degrees of cyclic. At 61-62ish I get 8 degrees and the roll rates are way too low for my liking. This is on a synergy E7 with savox servo's (stock synergy cf arms).

Thanks,
Rocky
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03-29-2012 05:55 AM  7 years ago
plantone

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Perth wa

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HI Ben

This is my latest finding as of 2mins ago in the back yard, i have installed jr 8717 servos running on life 6.6 v as is my srimok with same servos and cgy 750 and it flies great. With the goblin it seems that no matter what i do with the settings on I-gain D - gain 140hz 285hz gyro gain from 40 to 90 and head res 1 to 5 does not effect the hover nodding. I even ramped up the head speed to 1675 and still had a nod as per last video i slowed down idle 1 to 1900 and it seem ok there but if i stab forward or back elevator i get a bounce back with about 2 nods before it stops, if i do the same to aileron it is crisp and sharp and locked in. Something else i noticed while checking the correct gyro direction on the swash plate if i tilt the model ie 30 degrees on the elevator attitude i get like 30 degrees swashplate tilt to counter act, but when i do the same on aileron left to right the swash plate hardly moves at all but it does move, is this something to do the the 120 ccpm mixing in the unit or if the gains and AFR's are the same in both axis should the swash plate tilt the same angle ?? hope that makes sense its hard to explain without seeing it.

THanks Wayne
Mongoose
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03-29-2012 09:03 PM  7 years ago
scootr

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Australia

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Elevator swash tilt will always compensate more than aileron swash tilt, that is normal. I thinks its because the tail boom acts as a very long lever, and therefore needs more swash to compensate, compared to the roll axis of aileron.

What I would like to know is, if your AFR's are in the 35-45 range is that too low? Smaller sevo wheels?

Thanks.
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03-29-2012 09:17 PM  7 years ago
JPhillips

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Waco, TX

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My findings conclude that AFRs being below the specified range will not allow the 750 to perform at its full potential. Mine were listed before and although it flew well, never felt really locked in. I just finished moving all the balls in to 8mm from center and this enabled me to yield these numbers:

Ail Rate- 55%
Ele Rate- 62%
Pit Rate- 55%

After I fly it I'll probably be getting the Ail and Ele numbers closer together to obtain a closer roll/flip rate. These numbers enabled me to achieve +- 12.5 collective and +- 8.5 cyclic. I will be testing tomorrow because its too windy here today. Hopefully these numbers will allow me to run my gains higher to achieve that locked in feeling and get rid of the aileron shake that I had.

Ben or Gary want to chime in here to give me your thoughts on my setup as it is now?
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03-30-2012 01:02 AM  7 years ago
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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Those numbers should work well for you.

Ben Minor
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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03-30-2012 01:38 AM  7 years ago
JPhillips

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Waco, TX

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Ben,

If I begin tweaking the 750 more internally, what should I tweak as far as head response, I and D gain, etc? Anything else that you can think of that I should try?

Thanks! I'm really looking forward to this next flight!
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03-30-2012 03:07 AM  7 years ago
Dr.Ben

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You may end up with the head response on AIL lower at 1 or 2 and the ELE at 3 or 4.

I gain on AIL will likely not need to exceed 45%. Keep I gain on ELE to 45% or less to reduce ELE bounce following quick ELE inputs. Run no more ELE I gain than needed to keep the nose of the model in/on line in FFF and following changes of direction on the pitch axis.

D gain might be as low as 0%, but start at 50%. If the model is working well at 50%, work it up a little at a time until you see a wobble appear. This would assume that your gyro total gains have risen to something in the 70% range or higher where I hope they will fall since the resolution in the system is higher with the AFR's in the correct range.

Ben Minor
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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03-30-2012 12:08 PM  7 years ago
JPhillips

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What does head response do and how does it affect performance?
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03-30-2012 01:30 PM  7 years ago
Dr.Ben

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Basically it tunes the data stream out of the system to the level best suited to the ability of the servos to respond to them. It works as a tuning function to optimize the PID for servo characteristics and how they work with a given model design (like ultra stiff head set ups versus soft).

Ben Minor
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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03-30-2012 02:02 PM  7 years ago
JPhillips

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So a lower head response is more suitable for ultra rigid heads like the X50 and Whiplash models, versus a soft head/higher head response, correct? Or do I have that backwards?
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03-30-2012 06:08 PM  7 years ago
Dr.Ben

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It varies. It depends on the relationship between the servos you have and the model. I can say generally that slower servos may do better with a higher response rate (1 is the fastest data stream). I can also say that trying to drive slower or otherwise substandard servos with too high a response rate does nothing more than consume large amounts of current and potentially overheat them. Head response may also be a noticeably different value for AIL versus ELE too.

Ben Minor
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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04-01-2012 06:27 AM  7 years ago
plantone

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Perth wa

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Hi Ben any other ideas i can try ??? ive run out of options. i just run the gain on ele down to 36% to stop it nodding but it felt like crap.

Wayne
Mongoose
Srimok FAI
SAB Goblin
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04-01-2012 06:36 AM  7 years ago
3dgimble

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Rochester

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04-01-2012 07:03 AM  7 years ago
plantone

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Perth wa

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MAN you eat a lot of popcorn

BEN, Good news mate the gyro is now working flawlessly with the following settings, I - gain on ele 30% D - gain 200 gyro gain 65 and afr 58, this is ele as the ail has not been a problem left them as are. The biggest change came from changing the double sided tape as i ran out of futaba tape i used some VHB 3m tape then a stainless steel plate then another layer of double sided tape and then the gyro. Guess what, it works a treat who would of thought

Wayne

FUNGUY
You should have waited and not sold your 750 so quick.
Mongoose
Srimok FAI
SAB Goblin
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04-01-2012 07:19 AM  7 years ago
3dgimble

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Rochester

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I hear yah and I am happy that you got your heli flying good, but it took me 30 minutes to setup my Vbar eXpress 5.2 to fly exactly how I wanted it to, including initial setup, about 1.5 hrs to set my Beastx's including initial setup on all my birds. One year to setup my 3G to fly the way I wanted it, a total of 2 hrs for the 3GX 2.0 to fly great, and my CGY750! It took away 6 weekends of quality flying time and it barely got better. Point is I do not like wasting time fiddling with a FBL system that cost an arm and a leg, I want to fly and learn new 3D tricks with my helis.
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04-01-2012 07:34 AM  7 years ago
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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Wayne,

I'm glad you found what the Goblin wanted. I have an idea why the higher D gain worked for you, but it's not something that applies to every case. As you have found, you do not want to run ELE I gain any higher than required to hold the nose and to get the model to track well. Any more than that just induces unwanted bounce. Now that the model is behaving itself, you may want to go back a fiddle with head response a little and see if you can get it better still. And thanks for contributing to the collective knowledge with the note about the tape. Your issue has certainly not been a typical manifestation of a sensor not happy with the kind of tape on which it was mounted but I sure wouldn't argue with the success. I'm sorry it took you a while to get where you now are, but I suspect the end justifies the means.

Ben Minor
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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04-01-2012 10:07 AM  7 years ago
plantone

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Perth wa

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Ben

Head res is set to 2 do i go up to 1 or down to 3 - 4 -5 ??? as i am now running the jr8717 servos.

I will do video this week to compare model to the last video flight with the new settings and how the sensor is mounted. I hope this helps someone else with similar problems.
Mongoose
Srimok FAI
SAB Goblin
ENV Rave Next D 450
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HomeRC & Power✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsFutaba CGY › Consolidated V1.2 tips
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