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Thunder Tiger
Raptor E720 › E720 FBL Motor and ESC combo
11-17-2011 03:15 PM  6 years agoPost 1
chicagoslick

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Indiana, USA

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Just curious of all the different motor / esc combos being used. I am not sure of what I should get. Main flying will be sport / F3C style. Not looking for a big 3D machine.

Some stuff I looked briefly at are:

Scorpion
Kontronics
Castle / Neu

thanks in advance for all responses

Chicagoslick

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11-18-2011 10:42 AM  6 years agoPost 2
Borninthesky

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Sydney, Australia

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I am using a Kontronik 700-52 with Jive 120HV. Bit too much head speed for what your doing. You will need a low kv motor. Around 450kv should do. The stock pinion is 11 tooth but there is a 12 or 13 if you want more head speed in the future.

As far as the speed controller, get the best you can afford

Team Thunder Tiger International - Team Edge - Team Scorpion

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11-18-2011 03:52 PM  6 years agoPost 3
Skaluf

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Champaign, IL

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I'm using the setup that Gary Wright started using. Hacker A-50 400Kv with timing advanced to 20 degrees. That effectively makes it about 450 Kv, but it is very efficient. Gary routinely has runs over 12 minutes with a lot of battery left over. I've only just started flying mine, but I'm seeing the same thing.

I use the Castle Phoenix ICE 120HV controller, Gary is using the Spin Jeti (90 I think).

During a hovering/slow forward flight, I averaged less that a 20 amp draw for the entire flight. Took about 1800 out of the packs in about 7 minutes. Batteries are FlightPower EonX 30C.

Steve

Steve Kaluf
Hobbico

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11-18-2011 06:36 PM  6 years agoPost 4
chicagoslick

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Indiana, USA

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Thanks for the replies...

By the way Steve I just ordered the Futaba CGY 750 gyro (I already own the 701 gyro) , 1- Futaba BLS251 and 3-BlS252 servos. I am planning to use the 6208SB receiver....I noticed someone was using a 6203SB receiver on a 700 series heli. I thought that receiver was only good for mid size aircraft....Whats your thoughts....I own both and was really wanting to use the 6203SB....By the way I am using 8FG radio and it is a great radio....

Chicagoslick

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11-18-2011 07:57 PM  6 years agoPost 5
Skaluf

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Champaign, IL

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The R6203SB is a full range receiver. It's pretty much purpose-built for helicopters.

You are going to love this machine. With mine at 1600 rpm I cannot believe the amount of collective authority it has. It is also the smoothest machine I've every flown/heard.

Steve

Steve Kaluf
Hobbico

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11-19-2011 02:28 AM  6 years agoPost 6
chicagoslick

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Indiana, USA

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FYI...

I ended up getting the Hacker A50-12L Turnado and Castle Creations Phoenix Ice 2 HV120 ESC (I am already running one of these in my Trex 700 F3C with no troubles)... I am looking forward to starting the build. Maybe I will get sometime over the Thanksgiving holiday...

Chicagoslick

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11-29-2011 02:38 AM  6 years agoPost 7
gwright

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Champaign Il

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Steve is exagerating just a bit. I regularly fly this setup 10 minutes and have occassionally pushed it to 12. With 10 I'm a bit over 80% out of the pack. It's a good setup for the majority of folks out there as most don't need ballistic 3-minute type power. I just like slow smoother stuff that is intentional rather than throwing the helicopter towards the ground and trying not to hit it. Here is a link to a video from last saturday. I just changed from the 12 tooth to the 11 tooth pinion as I've found myself flying this lower rpm (1720) more and more and really never using my 2000 rpm mode, so I figured why have it overgeared the majority of the flight. This maxes out in the high 18's but at 1720 it remains constant for 10 minute and doesn't load down with 13 degrees of pitch either way so it pulls if you ever want it to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Zz_Ok7vOU

Gary Wright

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11-29-2011 05:50 AM  6 years agoPost 8
Borninthesky

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Sydney, Australia

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Pretty cool gary. It was nice to watch something a bit different than the usual smack. Looks very smooth mate.

Team Thunder Tiger International - Team Edge - Team Scorpion

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11-29-2011 03:53 PM  6 years agoPost 9
chicagoslick

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Indiana, USA

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Very smooth, almost looks like slow motion at times. This is exactly the type of flying I plan to do with my G4. What blades are you using? thanks...

Chicagoslick

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11-29-2011 06:20 PM  6 years agoPost 10
gwright

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Champaign Il

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I'm using Radix flybarless blades, I think they're 710mm. I've recently changed the tailblades also,..from the stock 105's to radix 110's. flying at lower revs than was intended for the helicopter resulted in being able to stall the tail occasionally in backwards and sideways stuff. 110's eliminate that at the 1720 rpms that I'm flying now. I've been flying it at 1750 to 1780 and had the other flight mode at 2000 so I lived with some compromises. Last week I decided since I rarely ever use the higher rpm I'd do a little towards optimization for the lower setting, hence the 110's and the change in gearing. Since it proved to work well this weekend and I have enough margin or "headroom" I think I can start dropping the timing,.. from 20 degrees advance to maybe 18 or 17,.. which will effectively drop the KV a tiny bit, lower the IO a tiny bit, and lower the "headroom" a tiny bit, thus increasing flight time capabilities. I'll drop to 18 degrees timing and have someone tach a flight, then maybe 16,..then up or down a degree at a time,.. till it will maintain the revs the entire flight but have minimal headroom, thus moving towards optimum on the power system, for this style flying, and this rpm. The more margin there is for the ESC, the higher the current spikes when it gets a bit of load, and I want to minimize those spikes, which eat away at flight time. It's not a matter of one thing to get high flight times, but a lot of little things. The only big one is RPM. The lower you can rev it, with all else being optimized for that rpm, the longer your flights. Then you work on other items that don't have an appreciable affect singly, but as a whole add time. Smooth collective,..i.e. no blade farting as each blade fart says goodby to 5~10 seconds of flight time due to the current surge,.. geared as deeply as possible that will still allow enough margin to maintain governed headspeed,.. lower KV motor to drop the IO, using a flowing style of flying that stores and uses energy from the flight ,.. even the habit I have of hand starting the blades which reduces that high current spike at startup. You gain 5 or 10 seconds here and there and have a dozen of those areas and you've gained a couple minutes. That video'd flight used 4300mah out of a 12S/5000 pack.

Gary Wright

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11-29-2011 07:00 PM  6 years agoPost 11
Skaluf

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Champaign, IL

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Me exaggerate, never!

Steve Kaluf
Hobbico

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11-29-2011 11:41 PM  6 years agoPost 12
chicagoslick

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Indiana, USA

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Wow, Great stuff Gary...You are truly setting the standard for flight time and best utilization of the technology that is available....thanks

Chicagoslick

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12-18-2011 04:12 AM  6 years agoPost 13
GM1

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Tallahassee, Florida US

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Alternative
I am using the Xera 4030 motor 470kV, Castle ICE2HV 120 with the stock 10.09 gear ratio. I get through a full FAI schedule, either "P" or "F" on around 3750 mah out of 5000 mah packs. I am hovering at 1550 and upstairs is between 2000 and 2050 depending on the top end pitch I put in. It's about 8 and a half minutes usually so I still have enough battery room to fly in a good crosswind without over taxing my batteries. LOVE the new battery tray.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.

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12-27-2011 02:28 PM  6 years agoPost 14
Telrin

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Dallas

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Thanks for the details Gary, I'm also heading towards your style of set-up.

Can I ask though, did you change the head dampers at all or are they OK at around 1750 or so?

I was just wondering if using something softer might be needed?

Same question for Gordie as well

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12-27-2011 03:31 PM  6 years agoPost 15
gwright

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Champaign Il

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Strangely enough, the stock dampers have been fine with the flybarless down to pretty low rpms. At the orlando event I'd made some changes and Had a couple flights tach'ed. Kevin said 1570~1590 the whole flight. I've had it much lower, and much higher,..you just have to tweak the flybarless controller. It's sort of opposite of what you think of with tailrotor gyros,.. as the rpms go lower you have to crank the gains down , and with high rpms the gains can be very high.

Gary Wright

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12-27-2011 03:44 PM  6 years agoPost 16
Telrin

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Dallas

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Excellent, that is good news.

I'm building this as a test for FBL F3C style flying so slow head speeds are very much where this is going to be.

450Kv motor on 11 tooth should put me in the right territory so it is good to hear I probably won't need to tinker with the dampers immediately.

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12-27-2011 04:04 PM  6 years agoPost 17
gwright

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Champaign Il

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You might find low rpms not desirable for hover. I'm constantly playing with setups and rpms and with the flybarless machine I don't like hover at really low rpms like with the flybar. It seem 1600~1650 is pretty good. At or below 1500 the control loop is slowed and the fbl controller simply doesn't work as well. You want light blades, stiff dampers, and more rpms. You won't be happy doing F3C hovering at the really low rpms with FBL.

Gary Wright

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12-27-2011 05:05 PM  6 years agoPost 18
Telrin

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Dallas

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Understood.

I was thinking more in terms of low 1700's rather than 1500's so I'm probably in the right territory.

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12-28-2011 12:24 PM  6 years agoPost 19
gwright

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Champaign Il

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Then again, you get the revs too high during hovering and you waste a LOT of battery. This can make a difference in having enough energy for the aerobatics portion of the pattern, where power usage goes up quite dramatically. The difference in battery consumption per minute of hovering can be pretty dramatic going just from 1600 to 1700. It's not a linear relationship. For instance, I did some experimentation last summer by flying exactly 5 minutes at various headspeeds and flying styles, then recharging.I would hit throttle hold exactly when the timer beeped to try to get good data. Hovering at 1600 for 5 minutes with the blades/motor/gear I had on that machine was using roughly 330mah per minute, yet going to 1700 was over 400mah per minute. Interestingly enough I did some 5 minute flights of my 3D flying style (smooth and flowing) and at 1700 I was showing just shy of 500mah per minute, yet at 1950, which is only just over a 10% increase in rpms,.. yielded over 850mah per minute, or a 42% increase in power utilization. contest style aerobatics for 5 minutes at 1950 yielded the same. I really need to go back and do that exercise again as I'm now using a different KV motor, different gearing, different timing settings, and different blades. Would be interesting. I know with the current setup but at 1710 for smooth 3D I used only 430~440 per minute judging by what I recharge after 10 minutes of flight.

Gary Wright

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12-28-2011 01:15 PM  6 years agoPost 20
Telrin

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Dallas

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Thanks Gary, this is all very useful stuff.

I'm aiming to work down from low 1700's to 1600's and see what I find, hence a 450Kv motor and standard 11 tooth pinion.

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