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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › My buddy's ICE2 bit the dust today..
11-17-2011 02:48 PM  6 years agoPost 81
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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>I havent made the jump to electrics yet.. but.. from what I've seen and heard.. I dont think I'll be buying a Castle product when I do.<

That's a shame - the ICE2 is a good product, at least the 120HV I have has been perfect on my 700E. I got mine when it was on sale (for some reason) at one place for about $170 and it was the best money I've spent on that heli.

Like I've said elsewhere, it looks to me like the ICE2's have finally fixed the major stuff so I'd say they're a good deal now.

I'm also a Kontronik owner and ran a 120HV powerjive on my 700E before putting the CC on it. The only reason I stopped using the Konnie is because it's the powerjive and not the helijive, so it doesn't have a bailout mode. Without that the heli is kind of tooth-chattering to auto .

OTOH, the Kontronik has added value because of the BEC. It's very strong and all that's needed for backup is just a 4.8v buffer pack. This saves money for a seperate BEC or seperate RX pack + regulator.

I highly recommend either the CC or the Kontronik depending on what your needs are. But at this point, I wouldn't avoid the CC just based on the complaining of others (many of them aren't even CC customers anymore) - the ICE2 seems to be pretty good.

Not associated with CC or Kontronik in any way - just a satisfied customer of both....

LS

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11-17-2011 02:50 PM  6 years agoPost 82
WBFAir

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Stamford, CT - USA

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unclejane I have both a CC ICE2 120HV and a Kontronik PowerJive 120HV. To be honest, the Konnie has given me more trouble than the CC, but only because it doesn't seem to be able to deal with the Align motor on my 700E terribly well, where the CC has no trouble with it at all. It also has now bailout mode (mine's not the HeliJive).
Just to note on this in case it is not known. Unlike the CC ESC's, the Kontroniks units work where they use a very effective and efficient "auto timing" system that continually senses the motors specs via feed back and even adjust its settings in flight. So while you can override this, it is what from every one that I have seen uses as it works so well.

This as well with all of the other safety features of the ESC also can and will sense bad situations and shut down or react if there is a problem as that is completely what it is supposed to do all to prevent anything from burning up the ESC (or something else).

The simple fact is the Castle has no such system and as such, in what almost seems like a better thing, cannot reacting to any issues at all so appears to work better with the Align motor.

It's been pretty well noted that while the Align MX motors are pretty good motors but they are not great motors and have quality issues of magnet placement from one unit to the next other things and so as such, the Kontroniks ESC is simply reacting to that.

The simplest way to put it I guess is that in essence, the Castle ESC is a dumb ESC that has no idea when is has a poorly built motor or is not working best via your settings and as such just powers it along with no care, where Kontroniks is a smart ESC that can sense such things and does so very well and also senses if it is having a problem with that and reacts.

Just to note, I am running a HeliJive on a 700 with 700MX motor and running the ESC in the KSA mode which is made for poorer motors in that is widens this sensing range and although I had something weird happen a few times about 6 weeks ago, I have flown it hard ever since trying to duplicate it but can't so I can't even confirm if it was due to the ESC's safety's kicking in and/or if it was just something else.

Needless to say I think I will be changing out the motor in the spring.

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11-17-2011 03:02 PM  6 years agoPost 83
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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>The simplest way to put it I guess is that in essence, the Castle ESC is a dumb ESC that has no idea when is has a poorly built motor or is not working best via your settings and as such just powers it along with no care, where Kontroniks is a smart ESC that can sense such things and does so very well and also senses if it is having a problem with that and reacts.<

That's why one costs almost $600 but the other only $200. It's strictly a pick-your-poison thing - a "dumb" ESC for $200 or a more sophisticated one for more $$$.

My Konnie also had incurable problems with my Align 700MX motor. KSA mode allowed it to work about 98%, but it still had trouble spooling the motor up in certain circumstances.

That's the other reason I exchanged it for a CC - replacing the ESC with an ICE2 worked out to be cheaper than going to another motor, so that was the logical choice for fixing that problem.

The topic, though, is whether the CC is a viable option or not depending on your needs. With the ICE2, based on my experience with it, I have to say that it is. Like I said, mine has been fine so far and has given me no trouble or fires. And my 700E is no longer so terrifying to auto now that i've setup the CC bailout mode....

LS

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11-17-2011 03:27 PM  6 years agoPost 84
WBFAir

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Stamford, CT - USA

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As unclejane has indicated, the Kontroniks ESC is just simple a different ESC then a Castle and has many superior features.

For sure I know its expensive but as some have alluded to that it is just an over priced Castle ESC, these are some of the differences.

Auto Motor Timing:
As I have written above, unlike the Castle, the Jive via some great software, works best in a Auto mode where it constantly take feed back from all kinds of points and then tweaks and adjusts everything for the best settings of the conditions.

All in all this runs everything much better and more efficiently.

BEC:
Unlike the Castle, the Jives have a very high quality BEC that is plenty powerfully enough to power any needed HV systems today.

Essentially to buy something as "compatible" with an independent system you would probably be in the $50-75 dollar range for just the BEC (or Volt Reg) and then also would have to buy and install all the extra wiring and a battery (with usually one more for backup). So all in all, you probably would end up with having to spend an extra $100.00 and all with having much more sources for issues.

Protection:
As just like was mentioned, both with all the sensing features and as well as a true Over Current protection, the Kontroniks ESC's have a hug rep for not flaming for either external or internal issues but just shut down.

Gov:
Without a doubt the Kontroniks Gov is one of the best in the business.

Support:
While yes I will admit that such things as their English converted manuals and the fact that they are in Germany and do not have a post forum we in the states can talk to them with or things like that are difficult, the fact is they do stand behind their products and I think the recent issue where when the HeliJives had a problem, instead of letting that ride while helo after helo was damaged and/or blaming it on the customers, they immediately pulled the product, found the problem in weeks and held back selling anymore till it has been resolved.

In the end while it is true that it is more money, the simple fact is that it is not a $200.00 ESC with just a $450.00 price tag but a much much better product in many many ways and while they both are ESC's, the Kontroniks products really shouldn't be classified as a similar to a Castle with just a higher price tag.

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11-17-2011 04:09 PM  6 years agoPost 85
unclejane

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And to continue since we're listing pros and cons of the ICE2 vs the Konnie, and to try to present a balanced picture:

- the autotiming feature of the Kontronik isn't necessarily a slam-dunk. It can also actually be a liability. As has been noted, the incompatibility with the Align MX motors is well-known and it also reportedly has similar problems with some other motors here and there on the market. The only resort available for this is usually KSA mode, which effectively cripples the autotiming feature significantly (if I understand what it does correctly). Kind of puts you back into the "dumb" ESC camp with some of the drawbacks associated with it. Then you kind of are running a $550-600 ESC like a $200 ESC. And, in some cases, like mine, KSA mode doesn't completely get rid of the problem anyway, forcing either a motor or ESC change to fix it. That spells $$$, in a case where the Kontronik is already at a disadavantage.

- As was noted, Kontronik are in Germany. There are two consequences of this that one has to be aware of - the cost being subject to the USD/EUR exchange rate and the longer supply chain and obtaining support. No matter how you slice it, this is a liability for Kontronik. CC, OTOH, is here in the US in KS. This makes support easier and quicker and it also allows keeping costs down.

- The ICE2 governor seems to be a vast improvement over the previous ones, at least from what I understand. The governor in my ICE2 I'd call about 95% of the one in my powerjive. The ICE2 will under certain circumstances waver just a bit where the Konnie will just stay totally solid, but it's definitely not that big of a gap. In fact it has two governor modes, LOW and HIGH, which allow higher gov. resolutions for low and high headspeeds respectively. The Konnie may just have this covered in general, but the ICE2's governor really is very good.

- The ICE2 comes stock with logging programming capabilities via the CastleLink and the firmware is user-updateable. The Konnie has to be sent to Kontronik for any firmware updates. (I believe logging capabilities are available for the Kontronik also through a third party, tho).

So these also add value to the ICE2.....

LS

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11-17-2011 04:45 PM  6 years agoPost 86
WBFAir

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Trust me, I am not saying this to get personal here so I hope this is not taken as a confrontational or dig thing in anyway and I guess its a point of opinion to some degree depending on the how you want to look at it but I really think to look at the Kontroniks Auto Timing and issues with any motors it has should not really be taken like that it is a "defect" of the Kontroniks ESC kinda the way you are making it out to seem.

The fact is that the Kontroinks has a great protection system that you are getting for some of that extra money you are spending that is sensing a "problem" due to an "inferior" motor.

So the Kontroniks in itself is not a problem or a negative, it's doing its job by not just blindly and mindlessly running a bad motor without letting you know there is a problem.

All in all while I know their can be consequences to that as you may have to spend some money to replace a poor quality motor, and sure I can understand that it is cheaper to get a ESC that will just run a bad motor, but for me an I would hope most others with a $2000.00 helo might like, I would rather know I am running a bad motor and not just have a ESC that just runs it no matter what.

Like I said too, the MX motors are known to be flaky, I've read where some running best out of KSA mode, and then some run better in it. Again myself I am running one and in KSA mode and it has been fine as much as I can tell.

Also just to point out that while the Castle has the recording features and that can be nice, it has also been well stated that it's not the most in depth system with the quality of its data and is not in the leagues of say Eagle Tree or the jLog system for the K's that you can use.

For instance, I remember last spring I made a post on HS to try to get users to post their logs on the 120s last spring to see if we could compare them and hope to find a reason for the burns and he chimed in saying how since the results from these Logs were so poor in their data quality, that it would really be pointless.

I'm not saying it's not a nice feature or that they should get rid of it, I'm just saying that it's hardly a really really high quality report of what is really going on in your ESC.

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11-17-2011 05:30 PM  6 years agoPost 87
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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>So the Kontroniks in itself is not a problem or a negative, it's doing its job by not just blindly and mindlessly running a bad motor without letting you know there is a problem.<

But if the rotor is still spinning and motor is still making gobs of power, who cares? Unless there's some other problem, what difference does it make?

In a case like this, it just depends on how you look at it. For my 700E, I honestly don't care if the motor has a problem, the CC drives it fine with no ill effects whereas the Konnie did give trouble. In fact, I was more worried about possible damage to my Konnie and/or the drive system in my heli than I am whatever the quality problem is in the motor. So it's a good fix for me to just run the CC - the "dumb" ESC solution.

Otherwise, I think you're quite right. I strongly agree...

LS

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11-17-2011 05:44 PM  6 years agoPost 88
deafheliflyer

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Arizona

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:)
Krontroniks have advanced alogrithms in place to "protect" the majority of problems in spite of user errors.

CC has advanced "nothing" to protect the majority of problems DUE to user errors..

CC has allowed users to come up with their own "setups" and ultimately that causes failures..

Krontroniks actually make it "harder" for users to screw up..

Ok.. Just my opinion.. I have been a STRONG CC believer for the past few years until Ive got my Krontronik.. and the first flight and setup made a believer out of me.

Just my .02$

Crash-Prone and overcoming it!!!

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11-17-2011 06:07 PM  6 years agoPost 89
BladeStrikesrrElite Veteran - Shelby TWP,Mi - My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Well I haven't said much because im reading and learning but have a question .When I bought my first Castle esc over a year ago,Castle told me to leave around 10% headroom for gov mode so that's what I do with all my Castle esc's..On my 700E I have the Scorpion 4035-530KV motor and Castle ICE 80HV which is a matched set per specs.Ran it with the stock 12T pinion/M1 115T main gear at 2000RPM over 200 flight's..Awesome power the whole time,alway's checked my log's which were perfect per Castle and poof,fire in the hold during spoolup .Seem's some are saying setup,pinion ect... has alot to do with it but why would mine go up with a correct setup ??It's not like I had 1 to 10 flight's on it,this esc had well over 200 flight's and went up for no reason.Never even changed setting in the esc.

All my flight log's look like this and im told everything look's good.

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11-17-2011 06:11 PM  6 years agoPost 90
deafheliflyer

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Arizona

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Ok Nice data

Nice Data.. Have you tested the Krontronik 80 with the same setup and posted the results?

Just asking.

Would be interested to see.. Ill see if I can find a CC and post the results as well

Michael

Crash-Prone and overcoming it!!!

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11-17-2011 06:16 PM  6 years agoPost 91
BladeStrikes

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Shelby TWP,Mi

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No,I don't have a Kontronik and don't have the money to buy one.Let's try not turning this into a CC vs Kontronik thread.

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11-17-2011 06:48 PM  6 years agoPost 92
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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>CC has advanced "nothing" to protect the majority of problems DUE to user errors..
CC has allowed users to come up with their own "setups" and ultimately that causes failures..
Krontroniks actually make it "harder" for users to screw up..<

Well, no, this is a good-news/bad-news thing too. A disadvantage of the automation in the Kontronik is, if it happens not to work right in some scenario, you're stuck with it. You can't go in and do a custom setup to work around the problem (as was the case with me and my 700MX). You have to start replacing components at that point, which is $$$.

Conversely, the advantage of the CC is you can go in and force different settings if you have to. Yes, that does require the user to be somewhat educated about what the settings do in order to prevent problems, but that requirement isn't the fault of the controller.

Again, like everything in aviation, it's a compromise - some compromises are better and worse than others.

LS

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11-17-2011 07:03 PM  6 years agoPost 93
jackheli

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Vancouver - Canada

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Krontroniks are not infallible either. Just saying ...

Better, but still...

It's easy to find an excuse to do wrong. Hard is not to find an excuse to do right.

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11-17-2011 10:34 PM  6 years agoPost 94
Linkdead

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Indianapolis, IN

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Castle ESCs all do automatic timing advance. When you change the timing in castle link you are setting a base point. From that setting the timing is advanced or retarded based on the back EMF generated by the motor. Kontronik controllers work exactly the same. The algorithm they use to determine the most efficient timing is obviously different.

I'm sure Castle could improve and update the code that controls the timing. I doubt it's a very high priority or even seen as an issue for the small development staff.

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11-17-2011 10:36 PM  6 years agoPost 95
bkervaski

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Birmingham, AL, USA

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Krontroniks are not infallible either.
Yep, just ask those early Heli Jive owners ...

Team Synergy Factory Specialist / Scorpion / Thunder Power / Byron's Fuels

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11-17-2011 11:38 PM  6 years agoPost 96
WBFAir

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Stamford, CT - USA

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bkervaski Yep, just ask those early Heli Jive owners ...
Again, as I have one of these and have gone through a lot of info including dealing with directly with the owner one of the only two I know of that had the only problem it had, the HeliJive had a software issue with vBar, and only when used via using it in mode 8.

Basically it was a timing issue via the BEC side of things that was a product of being mixed with the a third part component and only effected a handfull of people before it was immediately pulled by Kontroniks at the very first sign of the issue and has been fixed.

Basically for any other use, the ESC was fine and I personally have one and have had it on my 700 for over two months and as I am using the BeastX, I have not have anything of that problem.

Now I know I'm repeating what I said before but I just think that to put that situation in the same boat as the complete catastrophe of complete flame up problems that are completely on Castle along with the just absolutely horrible service of what Castle has just put this hobby through for the past year with what they made us deal with is not even remotely fair or even a close comparison.

Without a doubt things are going to have issues from time to time, and especially with a completely new product such as what the HeliJive was, but that does not even come close to what happened with Castle

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11-17-2011 11:47 PM  6 years agoPost 97
WBFAir

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Linkdead Castle ESCs all do automatic timing advance. When you change the timing in castle link you are setting a base point. From that setting the timing is advanced or retarded based on the back EMF generated by the motor. Kontronik controllers work exactly the same. The algorithm they use to determine the most efficient timing is obviously different.
I'm sure Castle could improve and update the code that controls the timing. I doubt it's a very high priority or even seen as an issue for the small development staff.
Hmm that's news to me, just out of curiously, if the Castle system is just the same as the Kontronics then why don't they just have an auto setting and be done with it?

As well I have herd over the years of several issues where they were having motors not run right and had to tell people to change the parameters in these settings to get them to do so.

So was just wondering where you read this or learned about this as I would like to read up on it myself.

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11-18-2011 12:04 AM  6 years agoPost 98
Linkdead

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Indianapolis, IN

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From Patrick del Castillo over on another forum.
I wouldn't use Lucien as a good source of information on ESCs.

The Castle controllers use a different timing scheme from other controllers on the market. This is why Castle controllers run motors cooler and more efficiently at partial throttles than most controllers.

We have found from testing, that even though other controller manufacturers list timing numbers (in degrees) on their controller software, the numbers they quote have nothing to do with reality. They are just arbitrarily assigned advance numbers, and they change from motor to motor by a significant amount.

Locking timing advance to an arbitrary advance number is useless anyway -- a speed control that locks timing advance to a specific number of degrees would be horribly inefficient across the control envelope -- it might work OK at full throttle, but partial throttle would be inefficient, or it might work well at partial throttle, but full throttle would be inefficient.

In the Castle controllers, we use an arbitrary advance number -- but it makes more sense.
The low numbers run near neutral timing, which give excellent efficiency, but not optimum power.
The middle numbers give good power, with a slight decrease in efficiency.
The high numbers give maximum power, with a larger decrease in efficiency.

We don't rate a bogus "timing" in degrees, because the timing changes depending on the motor type -- we dynamically adjust timing based on the running parameters of the motor.

Thanx!

Patrick
The reason you see a big difference in how a Castle controller perform as opposed to any other brand (Kontroniks, scorpion, ect) comes down to the differences in the algorithms used in the firmware. For whatever reason be it code or hardware, Kontroniks is more cross compatible and efficient.

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11-18-2011 12:38 AM  6 years agoPost 99
esmoglo

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Florida USA

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Scorpion 130HV is a winner. I sold off my ICE2 120HV after it came back from the second recall. I could not be happier with the Scorpion 130HV it’s a great ESC. I wish it had CC software/link but that’s it. Cool to the touch more efficient and the performance is great. FYI this ESC is in the same price point as the 120HV.

I no longer own CC ESC's

ICE120HV No more
ICE100 No more
ICE75 No more
ICE BEC PRO No more (FIY this unit failed and caused the total loss of a TREX 550E it was the V1 unit) they had a recall after and I got my FREE V2 unit....Yea
CC BEC failed Yep two for two...... wow what are the odds?

I hope CC has really fixed their ESC's but I just don’t have any faith to fly their products anymore enough is enough. Since the 120HV fire problems started to surface (last year) I have spoken with many heli pilots & plankers and its amazing how many CC failures there actually are.

Ugly can be fixed stupid is forever!

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11-18-2011 10:20 AM  6 years agoPost 100
WBFAir

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Linkdead From Patrick del Castillo over on another forum.
I wouldn't use Lucien as a good source of information on ESCs.
The Castle controllers use a different timing scheme from other controllers on the market. This is why Castle controllers run motors cooler and more efficiently at partial throttles than most controllers.
We have found from testing, that even though other controller manufacturers list timing numbers (in degrees) on their controller software, the numbers they quote have nothing to do with reality. They are just arbitrarily assigned advance numbers, and they change from motor to motor by a significant amount.
Locking timing advance to an arbitrary advance number is useless anyway -- a speed control that locks timing advance to a specific number of degrees would be horribly inefficient across the control envelope -- it might work OK at full throttle, but partial throttle would be inefficient, or it might work well at partial throttle, but full throttle would be inefficient.
In the Castle controllers, we use an arbitrary advance number -- but it makes more sense.
The low numbers run near neutral timing, which give excellent efficiency, but not optimum power.
The middle numbers give good power, with a slight decrease in efficiency.
The high numbers give maximum power, with a larger decrease in efficiency.
We don't rate a bogus "timing" in degrees, because the timing changes depending on the motor type -- we dynamically adjust timing based on the running parameters of the motor.
Thanx!
Patrick
The reason you see a big difference in how a Castle controller perform as opposed to any other brand (Kontroniks, scorpion, ect) comes down to the differences in the algorithms used in the firmware. For whatever reason be it code or hardware, Kontroniks is more cross compatible and efficient.
I'm not an expert on this stuff Linkdead but I think you are not interpreting what he wrote correctly to think it is the same as the way the Kontroniks Auto system works.

First off the only one setting that is talked about is the timing, and that one setting to begin with is a setting that varies which is kinda the whole point of what timing does. And in what he talks about that, it is still a preset based which ever one of those you choose.

And it is not based on any feed back as just like he says, "we use an arbitrary advance number -- but it makes more sense".....and then goes on the explain how they vary that one setting to make the point of what sense it makes, but he doesn't speak about that they do that from a feed back stand point

So in the end, it still is all a preset based on what they think it should be despite how even dynamic it is.

But that is not a real auto setting like the way the Kontroniks works as that takes no preset numbers at all, plus as well aside from that also varies many other things that are relevant to the motor and its operation such as the PMW rate.

Simple put, you can take a Castle controller and when you put in one of their presets, that is how the controller is going to behave but if the motor is off by that, or there are other factors that effect that, the controller it still going to do what it does based on that setting included how it reacts in varying the timing based on that setting.

To maybe put this better, I'm reminded of a conversation I had with one of there techs a few years back where he told me how much of a headache they were having with the surge in popularity as they were so cheap of the Turnigy motors as they suspected that those motor were so cheap because they were rejects that Turnigy bought from good manufactures that were rejects as they were so outside their supposed spec numbers that those makers wouldn't sell them.

Basically they were finding that even if the motors even had the numbers to work with that when those were put in, the motors still ran wacky as they were so off in reality.

This even translated in people having ranges a good amount off in the Gov RPM operations, and the readings from data loggers could not be held as very accurate.

And I know all this as I had a friend of mine who had basically had the exact same TRex 450 as me, including the pinion gearing and packs and a ICE 50, but I had a Scorpion 2221-8 and he had a junk Turnigy motor and we worked on setting up his bird but even despite putting in the right numbers, it didn't work the same or hold its Gov well or give us the right readings for RPM and other points in the data logs.

Basically that is why I had the conversation with the tech and is when he told me about all the troubles they where having with the Turnigy motors and why.

So to get back to my point, again, all that happens because those numbers, including the timing which changes on a preset amount, were not actually right for the motor but not because of the ICE but as the motor was not actually those specs.

So again, those are not real auto settings like how the K's works as one, it is still all a preset despite how ever dynamic and well thought out that preset is, and two, the timing alone is only one setting of what effects the motor and there are many other factors and the K's take all of that into account and not only do they take that into account and vary it constantly, but even as well will monitor if any of that goes too far out of a parameter and performs a shut down if it does which despite how well a motor line maybe, if you happened to get one that is just to far outside its settings, that will cause you to have problems.

But again, because the Castles presets are just all that, if you stick that bad motor on one of their ESC's, as it takes no feed back to adjust things, its doesn't know it has a motor that is outside those settings and runs it.

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