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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › My buddy's ICE2 bit the dust today..
11-14-2011 05:15 PM  6 years agoPost 61
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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As far as I'm concerned it's not that they fail but how they fail. Failure is OK but catching fire is the real issue to me.

TM

Delayed Response Operator Not Engaged
AMA SECTION 336 = Good
Drones = EVIL

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11-14-2011 05:19 PM  6 years agoPost 62
snipealot

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Frederick, MD

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As far as I'm concerned it's not that they fail but how they fail. Failure is OK but catching fire is the real issue to me.
I completely agree, the failure mode should not be a roman candle, blowtorch or fireball.

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11-15-2011 02:36 AM  6 years agoPost 63
zoot408

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MI.

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update
Castle has been jam-up. Replacing everything! Wish it wouldn't of happened, but it has been handled well

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11-15-2011 12:27 PM  6 years agoPost 64
esmoglo

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Florida USA

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Scorpion 130HV is a winner for sure stays cool and has a good GOV mode. After the second CC recall I said no more for me. I am very happy with the Scorpion 130HV. I wish it had CC program software but thats it this is the one to buy for your big E helis.

Ugly can be fixed stupid is forever!

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11-15-2011 06:57 PM  6 years agoPost 65
Wedge77

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St. Charles Missouri USA

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Nitro!!! LOL sorry couldnt resist..

I havent made the jump to electrics yet.. but.. from what I've seen and heard.. I dont think I'll be buying a Castle product when I do.

JR NEX E8, 12 cell
Goblin 630, 12 cell
Vibe 50N Fbl
Century E640 Fbl, 12 Cell

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11-15-2011 08:43 PM  6 years agoPost 66
zoot408

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MI.

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clarifying
Castle has expedited a brand new unit to me, and KDE is getting a motor to me. I guess the term "everything" was a little ambiguous... meaning the two possible cultprits..esc or motor, are both going to be replaced. I was forunate that nothing on my bird was damaged other than the esc

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11-15-2011 10:04 PM  6 years agoPost 67
renwick56

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Tampa, Florida

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Castle says...
That in the >10,000 ICE 2 120 units produced, they have only 2 fires reported... and they are investigating those...

So they say.

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11-16-2011 12:13 AM  6 years agoPost 68
Furyous

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Detroit, Michigan

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Well, unless both fires were in Michigan that is not true. My friend sold one at his hobby shop in Livonia and it burst in flames on the first flight, Castle knows about it.

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11-16-2011 12:25 PM  6 years agoPost 69
gwright

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Champaign Il

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Just a suggestion,.. maybe try a smaller pinion to reduce the surge currents a bit. You generally want the smallest pinion (deepest gearing) that will give you the power you want and maintain rpms. In other words, if 100rpms worth of "headroom" does the job, and you gear for 600~800rpms of "headroom", the only result is that everything gets hotter due to the dramatic surge currents. It's amazing when you look at a datalogger and see average 20~30, surge 50~60 amps,.. then add a tooth and see the same average but surges over 100 amps. Flight times go down and temps go up. Of course you go too far and you end up with a system that may not maintain rpm under load,.. but it's the far more conservative route to tuning a system with less risk of something failing. You can always go up a tooth at a time. You'd never setup a nitro lean enough for no smoke and ridiculous rpms, then govern it down to the rpm you want. Sort of the same principle. I like to start with a smaller pinion than I think I need, then add a tooth at a time watching temps. Same as starting with a nitro engine very rich and leaning a couple clicks at a time.

Gary Wright

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11-16-2011 02:28 PM  6 years agoPost 70
zoot408

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MI.

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well said
simple way to explain it

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11-16-2011 02:39 PM  6 years agoPost 71
Furyous

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Detroit, Michigan

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Gary, I have been flying big electrics longer than almost anyone on this forum, dating back to Raptor 50 10s conversions 7 years ago, when 6s packs were almost $400 apiece. Believe me when I tell you I no correct headroom. You cannot get consistent and constant rpm with a 13 tooth pinion on the 7HV without running the esc at 95 to 100 percent. 14 tooth pinions are the sweet spot for that setup, allowing the esc to run at a perfect 80 percent. I have built 3 of them and they all perform flawlessly. Two have Kontronic 120HVs and one has a Castle Ice2 120HV which again has not so much as hiccuped. It is not the pinion that is causing issues here.

BTW: Motor temps: 130 Battery Temps: 110 ESC temps: 95

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11-16-2011 02:40 PM  6 years agoPost 72
cudaboy_71

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sacramento, ca, u.s.

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that's all great, and makes sense. but, i've always heard (here, other forums, at the LHS) that you want to run the ESC at, or as close to 85% as possible for maximum efficiency.

So, when i begin to calculate a setup that number, along with my desired headspeed are my two knowns. everything else is calculated.

Is the 85% rule rubbish? apparently there is a very small window for error....run too low and current surges; run too high and current surges. With failures happening within the first 1-3 flights trial and error is getting very expensive.

I'd like to see some info on power setup efficiency from someone with EE at the end of their title.

[edit] this was a reply to Gary's post, not Furyous who posted 1 minute before I did. Out of context my post appears to call Furyous out...not my intention.

if it ain't broke, break it.

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11-16-2011 03:19 PM  6 years agoPost 73
Eury

rrProfessor

Dover NH

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Maximum efficiency is at 100%. The 85% is for the governor to have room to prevent bogging.

Nick Crego

Citizen #0168

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11-16-2011 03:31 PM  6 years agoPost 74
gwright

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Champaign Il

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OK,.. I'll shutup and butt out now.

Gary Wright

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11-16-2011 03:58 PM  6 years agoPost 75
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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New to the forum here, but not that new to electric. This is just FWIW.

I have both a CC ICE2 120HV and a Kontronik PowerJive 120HV. To be honest, the Konnie has given me more trouble than the CC, but only because it doesn't seem to be able to deal with the Align motor on my 700E terribly well, where the CC has no trouble with it at all. It also has now bailout mode (mine's not the HeliJive).

Don't get me wrong, I'll only let go of my Konnie when someone pries it from my cold dead hands, but since the CC is cheaper than replacing the motor on my 700E, I've stuck with the ICE2 on it for now. The Konnie is currently sitting in the anti-stat bag as a spare (or for if I happen to get another 700E, etc).

To me, the ICE2 has been impeccable, no problems at all. The Konnie, apart from the problems it has with the motor, has a BEC and governor to totally die for. The ICE2's governor is close but not as granite solid as the Konnie's. And the BEC in the Konnie also adds value that you don't get with the ICE2.

I think CC finally got it sorted with the ICE2's; I suspect the couple of failures we've heard about are probably infant mortality failures (won't go down the user-error road here, that's a whole 'nuther topic) that afflict any electronic devices.

So for me, hard to say which is the better choice. The ICE2 out of the box has a few more options for helis (like a bailout mode) but the Konnie has the BEC. Pick your poison.

I like both myself....

LS

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11-16-2011 04:07 PM  6 years agoPost 76
MrNiceGuy

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Melbourne, FL

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I guess some people just don't appreciate advice. Very good general tuning info in your post though Gary. I think too many people never set up their power systems correctly and don't get the performance and efficiency they could.

Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery, Today is a GIFT

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11-16-2011 04:34 PM  6 years agoPost 77
cudaboy_71

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sacramento, ca, u.s.

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since everyone is being so 'polite' i'm not sure who all the angst is aimed at. but, my post was a sincere question. I made an addendum to my post that i was not replying to Furyous. But, that should not have implied that i was ******* all over gary's post either.

i appreciate gary's input. i was just asking for someone who has an electrical background to post some qualified figures.

these forums are great. and, personal, empirical evidence is a great source of info. It's a far better source of knowledge than we had 20 years ago-pre internet. but, there is no doubt there is a statistical increase in failures for these HV/hi-current systems. some of this 'common knowledge' is wrong.

I'd like someone to post non-empirical, mathematically sound arguments for either running an ESC at 100% or 80% or 85% or whatever is correct...not just what can be gotten away with…sometimes.

if it ain't broke, break it.

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11-16-2011 04:38 PM  6 years agoPost 78
Furyous

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Detroit, Michigan

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[quote]I guess some people just don't appreciate advice. Very good general tuning info in your post though Gary. I think too many people never set up their power systems correctly and don't get the performance and efficiency they could.
If you are referring to me, don't get it twisted. Gary is a wealth of knowledge and a friend of mine. His experience is unquestionable. Now, with the Compass 7HV, I don't knwo what his experience has been, but I do know that I have built 3 and flown mine(2) with over 300 flights, by myself and some of the top pilots in the world. So, my conclusion that the 14 tooth pinion is the sweet spot for that setup at 2100 rpm is a very informed one. My entire point in engaging in this discussion was that the pinion is NOT the issue here.

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11-16-2011 05:13 PM  6 years agoPost 79
Eury

rrProfessor

Dover NH

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Furyous, there's a big chunk of info missing. Your pinion size is meaningless without knowing the motor.

My feeling on this subject is that it has nothing to do with the pinion, although Gary's advice on pinion size is spot on for the sake of general setup.There are issues with the Ice ESCs. The Ice 2 seems to be a big improvement, but the nature of having thousands of something out there is that we are going to see failures. The good news is that it seems to be much less widespread with the new Ice2 vs Ice 1.

Nick Crego

Citizen #0168

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11-17-2011 02:16 PM  6 years agoPost 80
WBFAir

rrApprentice

Stamford, CT - USA

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bkervaski Everybody is quick to crucify CC when there may be other things at play here, that's all I'm saying. So far there have been less ICE2 failure reports than Kontronik's Heli Jive.
Just to clarify, as far as I know, there were only a few problems with the "Heli" Jive where what happened was when only using it with the vBar FBL unit and in the HeliJives non-Gov mode 8 so that you could use the vBar Gov, there was from a miscommunications issue which caused various items to short/fail via

To the best of my knowledge, there were two helos actually damaged from this.

With in almost no time it was reported to Kontroniks and they "immediately" pulled the product and found out it was as a result of this conflict and with in a few weeks announced that for anyone using the "Heli" Jive to not use it with a vBar until they fixed this.

But for anyone else that wasn't using it with a vBar, it was fine.

I know I bought one and is has been on my 700 with a BeastX for several months now and it is working fine.

So again just to point out not that I'm saying you said this but they never "flamed" themselves from poor parts and the "software" fix for this conflict has been made btw and has been be tested and approved as they have announced a free send it in reprogram fix.

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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › My buddy's ICE2 bit the dust today..
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