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HomeScale✈️AircraftScale HeliScale Helicopter Main Discussion › Metal Blades in the UK
02-29-2012 05:54 PM  9 years ago
ba board

rrVeteran

England

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Whar exactly are we registering? The purchase and use of them? Or the type, what we are using them on, are the blades numbered etc?

Totally lost with this
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02-29-2012 07:01 PM  9 years ago
Double Decks

rrApprentice

Poole Dorset

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Metal Blades
Just recived Application form by email,
Airframe type
Airframe manufacturer
power source
Airframe weight without blades
Number of maim blades
Number of tail blades
Blade manufacturer
Main blade dimensions (length cord)
Tail blade (if fitted)
Blade construction method
you will also need to tick boxes if req with CAA over 20kg
If the blades are brand new,
There is another form to fill out aswell

If you email BMFA they will email forms back, fill out email back.

Hope this helps
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06-23-2012 04:28 PM  9 years ago
MattJen

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UK / GRAVESEND KENT

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Guys
Just after an update on what can and cannot be done.

I was at Wings and Wheels Model show today and spoke at length to Len Mount, he was gonna demo his models but he was not allowed to beacuse of CAA ruling with his metal tail blades.
He was NOT allowed to fly at a PUBLIC show with metal blades, so my question is does this affect the NATS, and any fly inns if they are open to the public ?

Len had spoken at length as the BMFA was on site today aparently there is a paragraph in the BMFA documentation where it says they cannot be flown at public shows..
PLEASE NOTE THAT FOR 2012 METAL BLADES MUST NOT BE UTILISED AT PUBLIC DISPLAYS.

Len was also sying if you have a set of metal tail blades and a set of main blades you will need to fill in 2 forms for EACH set of blades.
So he said if for example you had something like 9 models you would need to fill in 18 forms.

(Mistype, prev post said Len had 9 models he doesn't, that was my mistype sorry Len!)

Matt
All The Best
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06-23-2012 05:44 PM  9 years ago
modtron

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Oxford. UK

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Matt,

Yes - for 2012 while their use is being monitored they are not for use at "public displays".

The real question is what constitutes a "pubic display"
Normally accepted as being when you have to pay to watch.

The Nats is a competition where the pubic are allowed on site and pay for entry, so you would need to check with the contest director for a ruling on that one.

It has always been the case that "each" set of blades, tail or main, will need to be individually registered - so nothing new there. It is the blade that is being registered, not the model.
So far I have 7 registrations and no problems with the system.

And Len does not have that many blades as yet - so far only 2 sets of tail blades and a 3rd on order, so I don't think he has any problems with filling out the forms.

modtron
Oxford UK
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06-23-2012 06:12 PM  9 years ago
PETER ROB

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Devon UK

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CAP 403
CAA publication, CAP 403, is interesting reading
Although, with the latest release, I could not find anything on metal blades
It seems like the onus is on the head of the display director and his committee
Nigel, are you only keeping a count of the 'M' blades, all my metal blades have come through Vario
The registration documents do not specify 'M' blades only
Peter R
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06-23-2012 06:34 PM  9 years ago
modtron

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Oxford. UK

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Peter,
I have a register of every set of M-Blades that I have supplied, exactly the same as I do for every turbine.
It contains the buyers name, type of blade (main or tail), number of blades per set, specification of the blades and when supplied.
I had hoped to be able to include a copy of the registration documents with each set of blades supplied, but as the BMFA are now numbering each application as it is sent out, I am unable to do this.

If you get yours elsewhere, that is your free choice to do so.

Vario only sell sets of main and tail M-Blades for their own turbine BO105 model - other than that, what Vario supply are the Jung Viper X series, which are not included in the current usage and are therefore seen as being illegal for use in the UK until they have been tested and certified.

As the BMFA have only been presented with M-Blades so far, this is the reason that the documents only apply to them.

If you check with Manny, he will confirm that it only applies to the blades that have been passed so far - i.e. M-Blades.

modtron
Oxford UK
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06-23-2012 10:07 PM  9 years ago
MattJen

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UK / GRAVESEND KENT

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Thanks for the Info Modtron.

I would presume the Nats will fall under the same remit as it is a public event the same as W/W but with the addition of competition flying.

My reason for asking was as Eynsford Club Secretary when we have the Scale fly inn as it is open to the public all be it free of charge would we have to decide wether or not to allow them, as our only rule is BMFA insurance..

Thanks for the clarification mate,Appreciate you posting, thankfully it only affects a tiny minority in the hobby. You have answered my question fully. Thanks.

Matt
All The Best
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06-23-2012 10:27 PM  9 years ago
payne1967

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uk

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as no charge is made i would think it should be ok to use them
but there is nothing stopping you making every person entering the event a day member of the club (free of charge) and then you have a club event
a simple sign on the enterance and the club commitee having a meeting with this on the agenda and being passed clears the matter up
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06-23-2012 11:53 PM  9 years ago
G-Limo

rrApprentice

Europe

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Not quite so simple I feel - to be an official EMHC member, they would need to pay the BMFA subs as EMHC is an affiliated club.

If the current restrictions apply only to Paid Public events in the same way the BMFA requirements are for all Flyers to be 'B'cert holders at these events, EMHC Scale Day should be OK as it's a freebie event.. The whole thing becomes complicated once you start to charge Public Entrance fees it seems!

Reading this thread, I think there should be concern with the MAKE of Metal Blades being flown, as it seems the only ones sanctioned by the BMFA are M-Blades.. Where would EMHC stand insurance wise, if someone was hurt by a machine with Vario Blades for example??

/Limo.
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06-24-2012 09:26 AM  9 years ago
PETER ROB

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Devon UK

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Public places
If you invite members of the public to an event then for the duration of that invite, makes the event a public place

Not sure why you singled out Vario, they were only the supplier, not the maker, and were purchased when common sense ruled what blades you bought

Any one who may get injured at any flying event, has 2 avenues of claim, firstly against the individual pilot, secondly against the club,

Peter R
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06-24-2012 10:08 AM  9 years ago
heliraptor

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Colchester, Essex, UK

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G-Limo

To clarify your position at EMHC.

Once you have the certificate for the M Blades you are advised to keep this with you at all times when flying. Simply out, if someone arrives at EMHC with M Blades they should be in possession of the exemption certificate which details the blades and the model, so that can be checked at the registration point along with the BMFA member card.

If they don't have the certificate they don't fly.

Cheers

Lee
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06-24-2012 10:57 AM  9 years ago
G-Limo

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Europe

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Thanks lee... Useful info!!

Peter, I didn't single out Vario, I just paraphrased what Modtron stated in his post..

"other than that, what Vario supply are the Jung Viper X series, which are not included in the current usage and are therefore seen as being illegal for use in the UK until they have been tested and certified."

Looking for comments and guidance!

/Limo
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06-24-2012 11:35 AM  9 years ago
modtron

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Oxford. UK

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Just to clarify what Lee mentioned...

The certificate does not mention the manufacturer or style of blade being covered, which I personally think is odd.
It simply states an approval number and time line that it is valid for.
The only reference to what is covered is the reference number of the original application form.
This exemption certificate is now a legal requirement for the operator to be covered by the CAA regulations and BMFA insurance scheme.

As for definition of public displays - most of the displays that I go to which are classed as possible dangerous sports normally carry a disclaimer which is printed in the available program warning of the dangers of the activity to the public.
Also, that they as an onlooker are there at their own risk.
Providing that all safety precautions have been take, then the organisers will not be held responsible for damage out of their control.

I believe that this is also the case for the Nationals. Even though it is primarily a competition for modellers, the public are also invited to the event and warned accordingly.

With respect to the Eynsford event, it is not advertised as a pubic event, but as a scale fly-in for modellers to attend.
If you need any more clarification on this, I would suggest contacting Manny at the MBFA head quarters.

Another question could also be that when a pilot is not flying and only just watching, is he then considered to be the public ?

This is our first year of legal usage for metal blades and so far there has not been any issues, mainly due to lack of flying with our weather, but I am sure that most clubs involved will accept the BMFA ruling and registration scheme for usage at fly-ins.

modtron
Oxford UK
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06-24-2012 11:57 AM  9 years ago
G-Limo

rrApprentice

Europe

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So with respect to these 'Jung Viper X series' blades (or ANY metal blades in fact), providing the flyer has a Certificate with the Ser No. of their blade(s), we should be good to allow them to fly??

/Limo
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06-24-2012 12:08 PM  9 years ago
modtron

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Oxford. UK

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At this time, only M- Blades have had their test results accepted.
To my knowledge, no other manufacturer has supplied any data to the BMFA and are therefore not currently included in the certification process.

modtron
Oxford UK
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06-24-2012 09:32 PM  9 years ago
heliraptor

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Colchester, Essex, UK

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Nigel,

On that last message of mine, sorry I wasn't clear.

The BMFA advice is that along with the certificate you are supposed to attach the application form to it, and allow both for inspection. The application form has more info on the model and blades approved, and both the application and the certificate have the same ref number.

This as advise from Manny and a quote from his email

Dear Lee,

Further to our previous correspondence, for clarification purposes I have attached your completed application forms for the
use of metal rotor blades.

In order for the permission of use of metal rotor blades to be valid please ensure that you attach your application forms to the
authorisation letters we sent yesterday. Please keep these documents together in case they are required for authorisation checks.

Should you have any queries please do not hesitate to contact us.

Hope this clears it up what I said, sorry I weas bit sleepy this morning after nights !! )

Lee
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06-24-2012 10:12 PM  9 years ago
G-Limo

rrApprentice

Europe

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Hi Lee,

Which blade type/manufacturer do you have approval for?? (ie. what are you flying?)

/limo
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06-24-2012 11:38 PM  9 years ago
heliraptor

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Colchester, Essex, UK

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Hi

Have blade approval for three helis but one isn't mine, just building / test flying etc.

Mine are the Bell 47 G3, and the LM Turbine Huey.

All M Blades as that is the only manufacturer recognised and approved for use in the UK at this current time.

Lee
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06-24-2012 11:50 PM  9 years ago
G-Limo

rrApprentice

Europe

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Perfect - Thanks Lee.

/DG
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HomeScale✈️AircraftScale HeliScale Helicopter Main Discussion › Metal Blades in the UK
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