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HomeAircraftHelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › Leaking Hatori SB-12-R-2 - newly fitted
10-15-2011 11:51 AM  7 years agoPost 21
ddavison

rrVeteran

Brownsville, Pennsylvania

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Had a small piece of red get sucked into the cylinder into the plug and foul it.

DaveDavison,GasGob,WhiplashGas,Spectra,JRXG11MV,12X

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10-15-2011 01:21 PM  7 years agoPost 22
shawmcky

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Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

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Not so good if you are at 300 ft at the timeTime to practice those auto,s

Team- unbiased opinion.K.I.S.S principle upheld here

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10-15-2011 01:55 PM  7 years agoPost 23
tracknoob

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Miami Florida

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shawmcky,

Thanks for the cautionary note -- I too have seen the remnants of gasket sealants I found in auto oil pans and rocker arm valleys, as well as seeing oil galleys partially occluded by injudicious application of various sealants/gasket-formers.

That said, I have not personally seen a motor blown because of it, but there is no doubt in my mind that it can and has happened!

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10-15-2011 10:26 PM  7 years agoPost 24
Malc1

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EVESHAM,UK

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Test Flown Earlier - Not sorted

One 15 minute flight in just checking throttle curves and oil droplets at either side of the metal block and muffler seam.

The engine to block seal with the gasket looks okay at the moment.

This is using RED RTV which I did let go off for a while before tightened up.

Maybe not long enough then?

Minicopter Diabolo - Kosmik200,Pyro750-56
SpectraG + G26 3D Max

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10-16-2011 12:04 AM  7 years agoPost 25
tracknoob

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Miami Florida

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...or surfaces not cleaned properly, or have a bump... or a crack somewhere...

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10-16-2011 08:52 AM  7 years agoPost 26
shawmcky

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Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

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Make sure the RTV is up to the job,there are many types and the surfaces must totally oil/grease free for it to seal.Very high temp sealant for automotive applications is a must.

Team- unbiased opinion.K.I.S.S principle upheld here

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10-16-2011 04:47 PM  7 years agoPost 27
Malc1

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EVESHAM,UK

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What's the copper based stuff like?

It does have a slightly higher temperature rating.

Minicopter Diabolo - Kosmik200,Pyro750-56
SpectraG + G26 3D Max

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10-22-2011 03:33 PM  7 years agoPost 28
Malc1

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EVESHAM,UK

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Thought I'd try out the copper RTV anyway and have just come in from testing it out.

Still leaks but not as bad

Noticed it after the first 15mins flying.

Again it's at the metal spacer to muffler join and this time just a few droplets of oil are on the right hand side only.

This has been done exactally as per instructions leaving it 1 hour before tightening up.

Maybe I'll try for a fourth time using this stuff and put a slightly wider bead of silicon on.

Minicopter Diabolo - Kosmik200,Pyro750-56
SpectraG + G26 3D Max

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10-22-2011 10:23 PM  7 years agoPost 29
tracknoob

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Miami Florida

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Just did the first start and short run of my own G230PUH on the Gohbee 90, with long Century muffler, sealed with Permatex red High Temp RTV.

So far so good.

With any luck tomorrow, this bit of good weather we have had the last couple of days will hold up, and my luck will hold as well, and I can maiden this guy tomorrow.

If so, then my game plan is a short 1/2 tank maiden, back for a thorough field-executed post-flight for bolt tightness or any other issues, and if it seems airworthy without having to go back home, then I intend to fly a couple of tanks through it in hover and general familiarization.

So hopefully, I can report back on whether mine leaks or not at that time, with maybe 20 to 60 minutes total flight time, depending.

I have got to think if yours continues to fail to seal, you might want to inspect VERY closely for cracks on either the engine or muffler exhaust flange. Another crazy idea could be a leak somewhere else, running down to the flange? In a situation like this , applying carb cleaner to all surfaces, and using a toothbrush and rag to remove all carbon, dirt, oil, etc to be sure everything is as clean as factory, and then running it, will help really pinpoint the exact location.

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10-22-2011 10:29 PM  7 years agoPost 30
Dingo07

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Newport Coast, CA - USA

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I would remove the muffler and see if the metal spacer (gasket) you're using actually clears the exhaust hole on the engine, or is smaller a bit and creating turbulence at the junction. It sounds like the latter, thus the buildup and eventual leaking. Ultimately I think the parts are warped, or warping the more you tighten, thus creating a leak.

I've never had to use RTV in the past 12 years of running my G2D and G230RC.

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10-22-2011 11:05 PM  7 years agoPost 31
Malc1

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EVESHAM,UK

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Mufflers off again so I'll clean everything down again and recheck it.

Definitely just on the one side this time - and only a few droplets.

A quick look and there doesn't really seem to be much 'gasket' material from the RTV that I put on.

Maybe it is that there is not enough being used.

I have bought two different gaskets materials this week to try to get one cut out.

One was a metal faced very high temperature material and the other was also high temperature rated but more conventional.

Problem is I couldn't acurately cut out either of them.

I did get a quotation a few days ago from the material supplier for them to make some for me - which they would using a CNC laser cutter.

They wanted a minimum order of 50 though and were looking at charging me £120 for the pleasure.

That won't happen anyway.

Minicopter Diabolo - Kosmik200,Pyro750-56
SpectraG + G26 3D Max

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10-23-2011 01:10 AM  7 years agoPost 32
ddavison

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Brownsville, Pennsylvania

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You might want to check all the mating surfaces are flat. I lay a sheet of wet/dry 220 grit paper on a flat surface then take the muffler and holding it flat dress it on the paper then look at the surface it should show any dips, nicks, deep scratches keep dragging it over the paper until it looks even you will want the surface to be even with small scratches/swirls, do the same for the adapter. Wipe with alcohol,solvent to remove any oils. apply a light even film of high temp silicone to one side and let it set up before bolting together. Tighten everything evenly. Start the engine and run it for a few minutes shut off and retighten everything. See if this works.

DaveDavison,GasGob,WhiplashGas,Spectra,JRXG11MV,12X

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10-23-2011 10:58 PM  7 years agoPost 33
tracknoob

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Miami Florida

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Well, good news and bad news from this quarter: I took the gasser out for it's maiden and it went nearly perfectly, even facing 15 mph steady to 20 gusts (confirmed at local airport nearby). Engine started well, controls were smooth, no incidents, and I was able to take some notes for tweaking and tuning, but it generally is good to go!

But when I landed from the first short ~7 or 8 minute hop, to do the first once-over before putting in a full load of fuel, I saw that the muffler was shaking! Sure enough it was loose (but not leaking). I immediately knew what the problem was: I had followed the Permatex rules *exactly* which meant I broke the golden rule of all helicopter metal-to-metal bolts -- Loctite!

So the right process is to do the application per the package instructions, and when you get to the 1 hour mark where you are asked to torque the bolts, INSTEAD, take out only one bolt first, apply Loctite to it's threads, reinsert the bolt and snug it up, then remove the other bolt and Loctite it, snug it as well, and THEN and only then, apply final torque to both bolts to complete the job.

I'm very sure that when I do that this time, it will hold properly.

When I got it home, I looked at the flange seal and it was nice, but thin, and the only extrusion into the port was about 1/32" into the port, and about 1/4" long, and in just one spot. Still, next time, I will put more care on the bead, and not snug the 'wet' RTV nearly as much -- just enough to ensure contact and not much more, to prevent too much thinning and squishing of the RTV.

What is it Dave Hebert says: "Every flight is a test; every crash is a lesson"

At least I had a test today and not a lesson!

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10-24-2011 05:57 PM  7 years agoPost 34
Malc1

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EVESHAM,UK

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Been thinking and decided to have one more go with cutting out the gasket material that I have here.

Using 'Mr Gasket' performance acrylic exhaust material.

Cut out using a surgical scalpel and some 5mm and 10mm drill bits.

These are the sort that have a very sharp leading point on them so you can drill through so far and then turn the material over and drill at the pinpoint mark that has come from the other side.
You get a more accurate and cleaner hole this way.

Ordinary drill bits sure tear the hell out of the gasket material.

Had to get hold of some larger diameter washers as well for the side retaining bolts as the thickness of the gasket meant the standard washers didn't actually do a lot.

Minicopter Diabolo - Kosmik200,Pyro750-56
SpectraG + G26 3D Max

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10-24-2011 11:44 PM  7 years agoPost 35
tracknoob

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Miami Florida

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Alright, she is buttoned up. Wish I had some Loctite 243 on hand, but I used the generic blue I had on hand. I will check bolt tightness after the first five minutes of next flight. If this doesn't work, then I order the 243, and I also go back to a regular exhaust gasket.

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10-29-2011 04:34 PM  7 years agoPost 36
tracknoob

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Miami Florida

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I think I jinxed myself even screwing around with this muffler to begin with! This AM went out for a full-tank shake down session, and after about five minutes hovered close and everything seemed to be super. Perhaps if I had landed then, and re-torqued while hot, as some suggest, it would have helped. But I didn't.

Instead, I flew out about a half a tank, then brought it close again, and it's now shaking like a leaf. Dang. Landed, took it home and defuel, then ordered the Loctite 246, which is blue, med strength, but for high temps. Almost no one seems to carry it, so I ordered from an industrial supply house -- $10 for the stuff, $5 pri USPS shipping/handling.

Nest time the combo I try will be a gasket, red RTV on both sides, wait hour, torque, remove bolts, clean, Loctite243, reassemble.

There has to be a foolproof way to secure this as a high reliability connection, however, looking at the outboard weight of that Century IV muffler, that's a lot of mass out in the ends free to swing around, so maybe that flexible RTV connection is not best when coupled with lack of any external bracket or bracing on this muffler... then, you add to that the vibes from a gasser...

I will post results of attempt #3 once the stuff comes in.

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10-29-2011 06:02 PM  7 years agoPost 37
Malc1

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EVESHAM,UK

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Still waiting for the weather to improve over here and get some time off work before I try mine out again.

Minicopter Diabolo - Kosmik200,Pyro750-56
SpectraG + G26 3D Max

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10-29-2011 08:00 PM  7 years agoPost 38
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Here is what I did
Stock muffler gasket between engine and plate.

Red RTV on engine and plate (both sides). Snug up by hand, wait 45 minute to an hour and tighten up fully.

Cut my own gasket for joint between plate and muffler out of grey material I bought from a hardware store. Malcolm if you want some of this stuff I can mail it to you.

Red RTV on both plate and muffler. Snug up by hand, wait 45 minute to an hour and tighten up fully.

Go fly for 2 minutes, land, retighten outer bolts. Fly again some more (2 to 3 minutes), retighten again. Took about 6 to 8 cycles of flying hotter and hotter (first in normal mode, then in idle up 1, then more 3D stuff) and tightening after landing while running until it wouldn't tighten no more.

I got an hour on it yesterday in 3 tanks, and no leaks so far so I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

Also almost forgot I put some red rtv on the bolt threads to help them locktite better. I think regular locktite will just break down in the extreme heat of the muffler.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4220 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3310 flts
Whiplash V1-2 Hanson 300, 1618 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 473 flts

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10-29-2011 08:32 PM  7 years agoPost 39
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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One way to improve on this method
Is to mount the muffler to the plate with no gasket at first and continue to remove the muffler after a few minutes of flight and retighten the inner bolts while hot. Once they are not moving any more, only then make a gasket for the outer muffler joint and do what I did as described above for the outer bolts.

Granted I didn't do this, but wonder now if the inner ones would have retightened the same way after running so my cycles like the outer ones did. If it springs a leak, that will be my next plan of attack.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4220 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3310 flts
Whiplash V1-2 Hanson 300, 1618 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 473 flts

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10-29-2011 08:54 PM  7 years agoPost 40
Malc1

rrKey Veteran

EVESHAM,UK

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Great stuff Raja,hope you've cracked it completely

The gaskets could be the way to go then maybe.

My inner join using the stock gasket is actually OK.

I'll see what happens with my gasket material on the outer join when I can.

Theoretically that gasket that I've just made shouldn't leak

Then again.....

Minicopter Diabolo - Kosmik200,Pyro750-56
SpectraG + G26 3D Max

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