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11-18-2011 02:32 PM  6 years agoPost 21
MANCHA

rrVeteran

Cabo San Lucas, Baja- Mexico

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This year at our F3C nationals, in Mexico, FBL was allowed.

It took a simple pilots meeting from advance class to do it.

2 out of 6 pilots in such a class flew FBL helis.
They finished 5th and 4th.
Top 3 pilots were flying FB.

At this point in time, FBL is a work in progress on F3C; I appreciate those pilots using it on their F3C ships to start up what will become a standard later on.
They are paying the price, competition speaking, as any pioneer, in any other areas, has before !

I had a JR SG90 made FBL 2 years ago, flew it, used V-Bar; totally did not like it and made it again FB.

All my respect to those F3C FBL pioneers who are out there testing on proper set ups. Be aware, we are waiting to hear how in hell this
FBL systems need to be adjusted in order to fly properly.
I must confess, I could not tame it period and end !

MANCHA

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11-18-2011 04:20 PM  6 years agoPost 22
kcordell

rrElite Veteran

O Fallon, MO

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In the US, we have had FBL for the AMA classes of competition the last couple years. Nothing in FAI, yet. General consensus among the top FAI pilots is that so far, you cannot get a FBL model to hover as well as a FB model when doing precision hoveing. Argue this point if you wish, just consensus among the top US pilots.

Team Futaba, Team Synergy/Rail, Team Scorpion, Team Castle Creations, YS Engines, VelTye

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11-22-2011 07:28 PM  6 years agoPost 23
Santiago P

rrProfessor

South West, Ohio

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All my respect to those F3C FBL pioneers who are out there testing on proper set ups. Be aware, we are waiting to hear how in hell this
FBL systems need to be adjusted in order to fly properly
.
I must confess, I could not tame it period and end !
MANCHA

The whole point is that an FBL system that is perfectly setup, will

NEVER

EVER

do what a perfectly setup flybar does in hover.

The FBL system senses rotation, not displacement. You have to fly all the cyclic corrections to the wind to counter the heli displacement cause by the wind. The gyros will only HOLD an attitude.
A flybar although a passive devise, reacts like a weather vane and inputs cyclic for you to counter a wind gust. The higher the gust the stronger the counter from the stabilizer bar to maintain the heli in place.

For an FBL system be able to counter wind displacement in the same manner, you would have to add accelerometers to the cyclic plane and a WHOLE LOT OF motion algorithms to work properly (and you want those on a switch). Still, dont expect perfection or good enough for competition if that ever happens.

To hold a hover point to any degree you need a reference system (comms) like GPS in an auto pilot systems and even that has its limitations depending on the daily GPS satellites placing.

The FBL system shines in maneuver where constant attitude (or constant rotational rate) is required, that is what gyros do. They literary help make a heli fly track true "like an airplane" in the aerobatics. They take ALL those crazy corrections we are used to do for inertia, precession, and asymmetric lift out leaving you with a point and shoot aircraft.

But FBL system will not correct for hover horizontal displacement because IT does not know is drifting.

Santiago

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11-22-2011 09:26 PM  6 years agoPost 24
Heliguychris

rrKey Veteran

Perth, West Australia

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wow, what in interesting topic, and discussion.
im organizing the aussie nats for f3c and f3n for easter, here in perth west aus...which you are all invited!
a couple of the guys want to run fbl in fai.

im trying out a env with gy750 for the last couple of weeks, and there is no way know im able to get that thing locked over a flag.
once stationary, on a calm day, great, but any wind, or tiny corrections produces weird hover tendancies. aeros are a dream tho, as previously stated, a lot of the corrections are done for you.

in fb form, rotortech blades and paddles, tuned weights, soften curves, and ya done, it stays right where ya put it.
fbl plays to different rules i have found.

fbl is the new hh gyros. they didnt kill off the sport
try doing #5 and 6 or 7 of shcedule p without hh turned on

i persanally would love to see fb Winning in comps over fbl. gives the old hands a bit of credit, and helps to develop the software for fbl.....as good by me

Licensed (CASA) UAV operator certificate holder 1-YFOF5-01 www.helicamaerial.com.au

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11-23-2011 11:13 PM  6 years agoPost 25
MANCHA

rrVeteran

Cabo San Lucas, Baja- Mexico

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Santiago, it is my belief a perfect set up FBL system wil not make it; This with current tech.

Fly bar systems are an active system and it is correcting on the spot where FBL systems are reactive and first they must move and then electronics pick up the ball and compensate after the fact.

I know pioneers dedicating time, energy and money will give the corresponding feedback to create/modify a new devise, sooner or later, in order for us to use, in a competitive fashion, FBL on FAI.

I disagree on using GPS type of tricks to control hover but; if that ever become the case, probably hover manouvers will disappear from our routines !

MANCHA

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11-24-2011 01:14 AM  6 years agoPost 26
Santiago P

rrProfessor

South West, Ohio

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Santiago, it is my belief a perfect set up FBL system wil not make it; This with current tech.
We agee on that.
Fly bar systems are an active system and it is correcting on the spot where FBL systems are reactive and first they must move and then electronics pick up the ball and compensate after the fact.
I had a long discussion with a colleague here in RR a while back, about what do we call a passive system and what is active. Never quite agree, but it was no big deal.

So, they are both passive, as one reacts to wind change while the other senses rotation and reacts. Or do we say they are both active because they both correct an outside influence on the heli with out the pilot's input.

The terms ACTIVE-PASSIVE have diferent meanings in multiple areas, but if I recall correctly in aircraft flight dynamics it has to do with external versus and internal input-output.
In the case of the stabilizer bar the correction is external from the flight control system (passive) while the FBL gyros correction comes internal from within the flight control system itself (active). That's just how I view it.

One thing for sure, one is mechanical, the other is electronic, and they do what you say they do. I am flexible as long as the cat gets skinned.

Santiago

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11-24-2011 04:59 AM  6 years agoPost 27
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

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Y'all might be interested to hear that there is an invitational FBL F3C event scheduled to take place in Japan with all the top guns in country to be invited. I don't have to tell you how much this will help the evolution of FBL controllers for this discipline of flying.

FBL for F3C is coming. Mark my words.

Ben Minor

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

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11-24-2011 06:55 AM  6 years agoPost 28
MANCHA

rrVeteran

Cabo San Lucas, Baja- Mexico

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Santiago, cat gets skinned, we agree !

Dr.Ben, that is great news !
where can we access to check who is going and when it's happening ?

MANCHA

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11-25-2011 06:07 PM  6 years agoPost 29
socaldave

rrNovice

Palmdale, CA, USA

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"The FBL system senses rotation, not displacement. You have to fly all the cyclic corrections to the wind to counter the heli displacement cause by the wind. The gyros will only HOLD an attitude." MoneyPitVictim

This is why I think F3C could benefit from FBL system because the pilot has to FLY the helicopter. It takes us back to the "old days", sure the FBL system will hold the attitude, however the rest is up to us! The FB system is a aerodynamic and mechanical SAS (Stability Augmentation System) almost allowing a hands-off hover. With FBL just as MANCHA has stated: "I must confess, I could not tame it period and end !" This fact indeed forces pilots to "step up their game" and those pilots whose skills are better than others will show. I also believe larger FBL helicopters like the Mikado Logo Exxterme and SAB Goblin will help with smooth maneuvers and excellent visuals for the judges will come into play. Also the manufactures of FBL systems will push FBL F3C so as to sell their wares. I believe FBL IS the future for F3C.

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11-25-2011 07:47 PM  6 years agoPost 30
Santiago P

rrProfessor

South West, Ohio

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This fact indeed forces pilots to "step up their game" and those pilots whose skills are better than others will show"
@socaldave
Ehh, when was the last time YOU were out trying to do a slow climbing pirouette on a cone, in wind, with three judges on your back?

Do you think is a cakewalk as it is right now even with a perfectly setup model?
BTW, a helicopter is a very assymetric system, and never perfect. FB or not you HAVE to fly it.

Took me THREE YEARS TO SET UP MY MODEL TO FLY AS GOOD AS IT DOES NOW. (piece of cake ) And still not an easy task to fly any AMA or FAI schedule at a competitive level.

Right now with FB I have to fly the aerobatics very mindfull of heli attitude, rotor inertia, and assymetric lift, requiring corrections on rolls, loops, and climb outs and pull outs. With FBL, I do none of those corrections. HOW DOES THAT MAKES ME STEP UP?

(Those who know me, hold off on the short jokes)

You think better FBL is going to change the outcome of a world championship?
No it won't.
You will still see the top ten FAI pilots in the world be the top ten.
I also believe larger FBL helicopters like the Mikado Logo Exxterme and SAB Goblin will help with smooth maneuvers and excellent visuals for the judges will come into play
That ^^^ changes nothing.
When was the last time you personaly witness the F3C worlds?
If you have, man, we see things very diferently.
The full bodies and wrap-arounds used in the last 2 decades are more visible that the 2 examples you give.

I'm so glad I had decaf this morning,
lol

___________________________________________________________

I can see FBL technology WILL be the way of the future, possibly on all disciplines.

But TODAY, IS NOT, and I hope I'm wrong, but FBL technology alone is not going to change the FAI playing field much. (Ito flying a CGY750 or Vbar with no stickers, lol)<---joke

Ben,
The FBL invitational contest with all the top guns will definately be a step in the right direction and give FBL a shot in the arm to make the systems even better. That, and a room full of software guys writting motion algorithms all-night-long. Interesting to see how soon we would see the benefits.

Chago

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11-25-2011 11:55 PM  6 years agoPost 31
Taipan

rrElite Veteran

Sydney, Australia

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Last week I gave 1600rpm a go on my Rave E-FBL heli & tried some hovering maneuvers. They were terrible! A FBL heli is no match for a FB heli in the hover. Aeros it's the other way for sure.

One way or the other, F3C will most likely go FBL in order to attract new pilots. It will sure be interesting to see what work will be done on FBL systems to make them hover better.

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11-26-2011 12:59 AM  6 years agoPost 32
socaldave

rrNovice

Palmdale, CA, USA

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"Ehh, when was the last time YOU were out trying to do a slow climbing pirouette on a cone, in wind, with three judges on your back?
Do you think is a cakewalk as it is right now even with a perfectly setup model?
BTW, a helicopter is a very assymetric system, and never perfect. FB or not you HAVE to fly it.

Took me THREE YEARS TO SET UP MY MODEL TO FLY AS GOOD AS IT DOES NOW. (piece of cake ) And still not an easy task to fly any AMA or FAI schedule at a competitive level.
Right now with FB I have to fly the aerobatics very mindfull of heli attitude, rotor inertia, and assymetric lift, requiring corrections on rolls, loops, and climb outs and pull outs. With FBL, I do none of those corrections. HOW DOES THAT MAKES ME STEP UP?"

MoneyPitVictim

I wasn't trying to start a riot or hurt anyone's feelings-just participating and giving my opinion that's all. My opinion is just that, an opinion whether valuable or not. I'm sportsman pilot that would like to eventually participate in F3C sportsman class not to be put through a meat grinder just to participate in a forum. I guess I'll have to work on my social skills as well as my flying too...

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11-26-2011 03:03 AM  6 years agoPost 33
Santiago P

rrProfessor

South West, Ohio

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dave

Someone switched my orange mocha double latte decaf with colombian expresso. LOL
It was the caffeine typing.

Hey!
I could have just said:

What you said is a bit paradoxical.

and

The current competition rules already separate the good and the better pilots as is. FBL would not change it.

But, it would not make the same impact,

would it?

Welcome to my twisted humor.

I meant no harm.

Santiago

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11-26-2011 03:43 AM  6 years agoPost 34
socaldave

rrNovice

Palmdale, CA, USA

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"Welcome to my twisted humor.
I meant no harm."

Santiago

Thanks, no harm taken!

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11-27-2011 05:46 AM  6 years agoPost 35
MANCHA

rrVeteran

Cabo San Lucas, Baja- Mexico

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Truth is FBL is not better than FB FAI competición helis Dave;
It is not a matter of lack of skills at this point in time.

I will keep flying FB on competition until FBL system is equal and/or better then.

What I meant with "I could not tame it..." was not because of no skills but because of system is not good enough as yet to obtain top scores.
Yes, I concider myself a good FAI pilot and looking forward to become a very good one !

I am glad Santiago and you are cool, this is a good thread !

MANCHA

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11-28-2011 05:45 PM  6 years agoPost 36
socaldave

rrNovice

Palmdale, CA, USA

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"What I meant with "I could not tame it..." was not because of no skills but because of system is not good enough as yet to obtain top scores. Yes, I concider myself a good FAI pilot and looking forward to become a very good one!"

MANCHA

Thank's for the reply MANCHA! When I quoted your statement I never meant that you personally had a lack of skills! I would never be so foolish to say something like that about someone on a public forum like this!

What I was trying to say was the FBL system opens a new frontier us all. The FB F3C machine is at high state of development. The FBL is still in its developmental stage, and Futaba and Japan Remote are just this year coming out with FBL control system(s). I was just trying to state we will all have to start over and develop new skills and strategies towards F3C if FBL systems are allowed. I do appreciate you comment MANCHA.

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12-03-2011 05:21 PM  6 years agoPost 37
MANCHA

rrVeteran

Cabo San Lucas, Baja- Mexico

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FBL is a great tool for electric helis, battery last longer !
3D flyers are having fun with FBL systems, and we will have fun too in the future, I am sure !

Electric helis are already ruling FAI world competition and nitro is not "in".

I still use nitro helis, it's where my heart is !
I will use an electric competition heli eventually but not just yet !

Thanks for your words Dave, I appreciate them as well !

MANCHA

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12-03-2011 08:48 PM  6 years agoPost 38
Heliguychris

rrKey Veteran

Perth, West Australia

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im sure someone could get a vbar up to par, ar a 750 maybe,, but the amount of time tweaking etc, you may well be better of just using the time practising!

Licensed (CASA) UAV operator certificate holder 1-YFOF5-01 www.helicamaerial.com.au

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12-12-2011 02:56 PM  6 years agoPost 39
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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For what it's worth, I'm joining the FBL craze with my align 700E. I ordered a beastx and FBL head, etc. for it this morning and will attempt to set it up with my Curtis V2 FAI blades and soft dampeners in the head and so on.

My nitro I'm keeping FB unless FBL works out nice enough to justify switching. If so, that one will get a CGY 750.

I love my FB in the hover, but I don't love what happens when I do certain other things like flips and so on. But having both I'll be able to see, at least in a very rough way, what the FB/FBL is contributing, and what setup/pilot/etc. is contributing.

Should be interesting...

LS

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12-12-2011 03:22 PM  6 years agoPost 40
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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What it will come down to is if FBL technology is not allowed into F3C, we'll have basically three or four manufacturers selling FAI heads and kits, and that incredibly small volume will ensure an incredibly high price tag.
Sorry to resurrect an older thread, but just now getting round to reading through it.

I'd say this is already happening or has happened. When I started looking at turning my nitro into an F3C "trainer" for myself, I immediately started having trouble finding equipment and information. I.e. I only found the Curtis V2 FAI blades that I wanted to try in stock in one place. I have yet to find even the Align second generation F3C flybar head (the one with the swapped washout arms/washout base) available from anywhere except Amazon.com! . That's just a couple of examples, but the major thing is how much resistence I've already gotten to finding anything that makes my trex not fly like a gnat sprayed with bugspray lol.

As I posted a little while ago, I've also decided to get with the times and go FBL (on my electric first since it's the one I fly the least and don't feel bad about experimenting with). It looks like it solves certain problems and introduces others, but it looks really intriguing. It'll be interesting to see how it works with squishy dampeners and my big ol' Curtis FAI blades at 1500 rpm....

But I've definitely noticed that precision flying seems to be in a real back seat position to 3D. Of course, F3C would have to be where my interests are going too just to make it difficult...

LS

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