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Home🌌Off Topics🌌Off Topics News & Politics › God Created Mankind. Part 2
04-29-2011 05:58 PM  10 years ago
Dennis (RIP)

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So Dennis, does this mean that you are an agnostic too? Otherwise, I don't understand how you could agree that nobody knows but then also make claims about knowing.
I have never made claims about knowing.

I have always said I have my faith in God. That faith is itself is enough evidence for me that God does exist. Faith is not tangible.

But, I cannot prove it. I would not be so bold as to do so.

Nobody knows. Nobody.
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04-29-2011 06:21 PM  10 years ago
outhouse

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Outhouse, thanks for putting those details out there
no problem its a hobby
I summed it up quite a bit, but nonetheless, my point about the Bible being created for social and political reasons still stands
yep fine job
Oh, and the Abrahamic God was also evolved originally from the Greek God of War, Aries. The name of course changed a few times along the way (El, Ba'al, Yahweh, Jehovah, God...). Some also claim that ancient Egyptian Gods became influences for the God of Judaism. Either way, the concepts of God(s) has evolved along with man and has served as a placeholder for answers until they can be discovered through other scientific means.
true

dont forget the sumerians.

ancient semetic speaking people were all over the levant and as the larger previous cultures collapsed they all migrated together to form the hebrews culture around 1250 BC. they brought the storys from nomadic tribes in the levant. They brought story's from egypt [10 commandments exodus ect ect, and they brought sumerian culture into it as well will noahs flood ect ect ect
Oh, and the Abrahamic God was also evolved originally from the Greek God of War, Aries.
hey bud you have any links backing that???

all I can find is that ancient hebrews are older then ares/aries
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04-29-2011 06:21 PM  10 years ago
GREYEAGLE

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Context and Interpretation
One of the most important principles of interpretation is always to interpret according to the context of a verse.

The " context " includes the verses immediately preceding and immediately following the verse you are studying. If you do not take care to interpret the verse according to the context, you could make the Bible teach atheism. For the Bible itself say's, " There is no God "
Ps14:1. But the context makes clear what this verse means: The entire sentence says, " The fool hath said in is heart, There is no God "

Always study the passage immediately preceding and immediately following any verse, word or topic to make sure that you see the truth in the setting which God intended.

Re:

I shall stand on my scaffold ! , with banner and my staff ! to denounce & blasphemy the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For I am assure I will awake from my sleep in the morn ! Yes I say I shall!

He may / or He may not for he is stronger and has no concern !.
But what if he does ?? / and his children or wife do not ? ??

Will he then or will he then not? Stand on his scaffold, with banner and staff to Denounce & Blasphemy the Father, Son and Holy Spirit ??
greyeagle
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04-29-2011 06:24 PM  10 years ago
RC Dbutz

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Dennis, well I respect and admire your resolve to at least admit that none of us really know any of this stuff for sure. Not a lot of people are able to do that. I rarely find Christians that are willing to consider any angle except the one they are taught to believe early on. There is a sense that even questioning makes you unfaithful, and that denying the organized religion means that you were never truly a believer in the first place.

Curious, do you ever pursue other angles? Do you ever delve into Physical Cosmology, Metaphysics or other sciences that attempt to learn more about the origins of the universe? Are you a young earth creationist, or do you believe that God used evolution to create mankind?

Another quick question for believers, do babies, mentally handicapped, and people never exposed to Christianity go strait to Hell, seeing how they never accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? Do they get an understanding "Get out of Hell Free" card?
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04-29-2011 06:56 PM  10 years ago
RC Dbutz

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Outhouse, Exodus 15:3 is the passage that many people believe indicates that Yahweh was the God of War and based on previous concepts of polytheistic Gods of War. Exodus 15:11 and 18:11 prove that the the pioneers of Judaism were originally polytheists that chose to worship one God over another (Elohim, originally El Elyon and becomes Yahweh). Once they became prosperous again they began to worship Baal and Asherah, as they wanted for peace and fertility, but kept flip flopping between the Gods until it just made it easy to combine them in to one. Anyways, the name Yahweh Sabaoth meant "Yahweh, God of the Armies." Yahweh was essentially the Hebrew version of Aries.

A great book on the subject is A History of God by Karen Armstrong and this is a great video to watch:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Evid3nc.../18/MlnnWbkMlbg
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04-29-2011 06:58 PM  10 years ago
Dennis (RIP)

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Dennis, well I respect and admire your resolve to at least admit that none of us really know any of this stuff for sure. Not a lot of people are able to do that.
Ah shucks.

I rarely find Christians that are willing to consider any angle except the one they are taught to believe early on. There is a sense that even questioning makes you unfaithful, and that denying the organized religion means that you were never truly a believer in the first place.
Well, all I can say that within my small circle of family and friends, we all feel the same about it. Some a little more. Some a little less. But, all similar. None of us make a big whoopee deal about it. Some do when they get a few to many beers in their gut.
Curious, do you ever pursue other angles?
I am almost 65 years old. I already know everything.
Do you ever delve into Physical Cosmology, Metaphysics or other sciences that attempt to learn more about the origins of the universe?
Well heck. Delving deeply into those sciences is a bit beyond my pay grade. Learning about the origins of the universe? Well, I am fascinated by it at times. Its a realm of wonder, of course. But, I don't know what else to say about it.
Are you a young earth creationist, or do you believe that God used evolution to create mankind?
The human body and human mind and its capabilities is beyond anything known in the universe other than the complexity and wonders the universe itself. For one small example; its pretty much accepted that we only use a small portion of what the human brain is actually capable of. Thats why intelligent design makes a bit of sense to me.

Do I believe in evolution. There is one heck of a lot of discussion about that. I don't buy it. There are just to many gaps in the science. Those gaps leave a lot of doubt in my mind. For example; evolutions will show a picture of a lot of skulls found in the earth form distant past. they will say, "See, man evolved". But, they cannot explain how one skull evolved from one to the other. Some claim they can. I am not convinced. A bit of silliness in my mind. Especially by those that are not scientists themselves and have no credentials at all other than being arm chair scientists. We see that here on an hourly/daily basis.
Are you a young earth creationist, or do you believe that God used evolution to create mankind?
Again, intelligent design kinda makes sense to me. Can I prove it? of course not. Once more, beyond my pay grade.

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04-29-2011 07:03 PM  10 years ago
outhouse

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cool info

I also understand asherah and how polytheistic they were when they were creating gods at will

I also understand if im not mistaken Elohim is plural
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04-29-2011 07:07 PM  10 years ago
outhouse

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heres a thread i started in another forum

Up until at least the time of the (sixth century BCE) Babylonian Exile, the ancient Hebrews worshipped many gods. Even in the time of the Exile, Isaiah (26:13-14) said in acknowledgement of Judah's polytheistic past:

'O Lord our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise; therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to vanish.'

Having claimed that the old gods were dead and entirely forgotten, the author of the above passage then criticised those who still worshipped them.

Some of the Hebrew gods include (with limited references, because of space):

The moon god

Throughout the Middle East, from Egypt to Persia, the golden calf represented the moon god, so when the Israelites worshipped golden calves, we know this was the moon god. C. L. Woolley found several images of golden calves in his excavations of the royal graves at Ur. That these images are of the moon god can be seen a description found in a Sumero-Akkadian hymn to that god: 'Ferocious bull, whose horn is thick, whose legs are perfected, who is bearded in lapsis, and filled with luxury and abundance.' In Exodus, the Hebrews built a golden calf, which Moses is said to have destroyed. In 1 Kings chapter 12, we find that the King Jeroboam made two calves of gold, setting one up in Bethel and one in Dan. He made priests and ordained a national feast day to the god symbolised by these calves, and the people came to worship. From this it can be seen that, under Jeroboam, the moon god was the national god of Israel

The sun god

In Exodus, Joshua is said to have fought against the Amaleks, while Moses held up his hand until the sun went down. Arguably, this passage is based on an early sun god myth. Verse 17:1 says that they had journeyed from the wilderness of Sin. Sin was the Semitic moon god, so the wilderness of Sin was night time - when the moon god was in control. Joshua could only prevail while Moses held up his hand and the sun was up - the sun god was in control. Note that verses 17:2-7, in which Moses tapped a rock to obtain water, seem to have been inserted out of order, thus breaking the link between the moon god and the battle. The Book of Ezekiel, verse 8:16 says: 'And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house, and behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east'.

Venus, known to the ancient Hebrews as Asherah.
There are frequent references to Asherah and to her groves, throughout the Bible The Second Book of Kings (23:5) tells us that priests at Jerusalem burnt incense to the sun and the moon and to the planets and to all the host of heaven.

The serpent god, Nehushtan

Judahites worshipped Nehushtan at least until the seventh century BCE, when King Hezekiah finally destroyed the idol.
Regional gods

Other gods that the Hebrew people worshipped in the period up to the Exile include Ba'al, Moloch, Chemosh, Milcom, Chiun or Remphan, Gad and Meni. Ezekiel 8:14 describes women in the Temple 'weeping for Tammuz' - the Semitic god condemned to hell by the goddess Astarte after she was crucified and resurrect

Lady Wisdom

The spirit/goddess Lady Wisdom seems to be post-exilic, although the Bible says that she existed before the creation of the world. The Book of Proverbs is largely devoted to Lady Wisdom, as is much non-canonical Jewish writing from after the Babylonian Exile.
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04-29-2011 07:08 PM  10 years ago
outhouse

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Nevertheless, in opposition to the popular monotheistic notion that Jews and Christians entertain today—of one almighty God of Israel always ruling everything—then and now—stands even more historical evidence that shows this notion originally emerged from an earlier age ruled by several gods.

Monotheism (a belief in only one God) sprang forth from polytheism (the worship of many gods) at a relatively recent time in human history, and it progressed slowly, and only began to flourish several centuries after the time of Christ. It developed from the later Hebrew worship of a sole God, Yahweh—as, in The Religious Teachings of the Old Testament, Albert C. Knudson, a professor in the Boston University School of Theology, so aptly pointed out:

"The sole godhead of Yahweh was a truth that was only gradually attained. The different steps in this development may be distinguished with a fair degree of clearness. We begin with the Mosaic age. It was to Moses, as we have seen, that the establishment of Yahweh-worship was due. Previous to his time the Israelites seem to have been polytheists. On one of the cuneiform tablets discovered by Winckler at Boghazkj and belonging to the pre-Mosaic age we read of “the gods” of the Habiri or Hebrews, and in Josh. 24.2, 14f. and Ezek. 20.7f., 24 we are told that both in Mesopotamia and Egypt the Israelites worshipped other gods. The very name “Yahweh” also points in the same direction. The manifest purpose of such a name was to distinguish the god of Israel from other gods. If the Hebrews had not believed in the existence of other deities, there would have been no need of giving a personal name to the Divine Being through whom they were delivered from Egypt. He would have been to them simply God.

"Then, too, it is a significant fact that the common Hebrew word for “God,” Elohim, is plural in form. This plural, it is often said, was not numerical, but simply enhancive of the idea of might, a plural majesty. And this was no doubt to a large extent true of later usage. But originally the plural form must have had a polytheistic background. People could have begun to use the plural “gods” to express the idea of divinity only at a time when they believed in the existence of a plurality of divine beings. This is illustrated by the Greek use of theoi and the Latin use of dei. The plural, Elohim, points, then, back to an earlier polytheistic stage of belief. And this stage we naturally locate in the pre-Mosaic period.

"What Moses did was to put monolatry in place of the earlier polytheism. He did not deny the existence of other gods, but proclaimed Yahweh as the sole god of Israel. He did not say that there was but one God, but insisted that it was Israel’s duty to have but one God. But while he thus did not teach monotheism [like the wayward do now], the monolatry he established was an important step in that direction."

[i]In fact, The Emphasized Bible even goes so far as to translate Amos 5:26 thus: “But ye carried the tent of your king-idol, and your Saturn-images—the star of your gods, which ye made for yourselves.” This is a more accurate translation than that in the King James Bible—wherein the Hebrew word used for “God” is actually elohim, which once again, should be translated “gods,” just as the Emphasized Bible translates it. Apparently its translators saw no great danger in rendering elohim as a divine plural in this particular instance. But, like the thousands of times in the King James Translation, and in other translations as well, the translators apparently thought it was safer and wiser if the naive flock would read just “God,” so that the greatest deception of two millennium—that is, that there is but one (Hebrew) God ruling this infinite universe—could be effectively propagated to future generations for perhaps another thousand years. It is time for religious shepherds to teach their naive flocks the truth for a change.
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04-29-2011 07:10 PM  10 years ago
Dennis (RIP)

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It is time for religious shepherds to teach their naive flocks the truth for a change.
The "Truth" is in your hearts, and nowhere else.

Its certainly not on the Internet.

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04-29-2011 07:17 PM  10 years ago
RC Dbutz

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Dennis, you're almost 65 but you're not dead yet, and neither is your ability to absorb new information. Saying that something is "Out of your pay grade" is selling yourself short. The Physical Cosmology stuff is very interesting and there is a lot to learn about modern physics. There are even concepts that support the idea of a creator, if that's what you are geared towards.

Evolution, however, is a generally accepted concept by most scientists. Like I said, if you want to know more about how scientists feel about it, look at Project Steve. Exactly what "gaps" are you referring too? It's just that, whenever a gap exists and it gets filled in, some with turn that into 2 gaps. If you looks at transitional fossils and the DNA trails, then evolution is pretty hard to deny reasonably. I'd say even about half of the Christians I know accept evolution and take it in to account when speaking of their God's methods. The excuse for these guys regarding the creation story is based on the fact that man did not understand science thousands of years ago, and so God could not explain creation correctly. They also say that 13.7 billion years for us approximately equals 7 days for God. There are a lot of interpretations and views on it, but I don't see how it is necessary to deny proven science.
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04-29-2011 07:24 PM  10 years ago
RC Dbutz

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Dennis, you say the truth is in our hearts, right?

Well, when I was young I was raised in Christianity, but deep down inside of me, in my heart, I ALWAYS knew that none of it really made any sense. I always felt deep down in my heart that when I die it is going to be lights out. I think that many self proclaimed Christians feel that same way. I don't know a lot of Christians that deny themselves medical treatment and prefer prayer, or live life thinking that they have no responsibility for what happens here on earth. Most Christians I know use doctors, nurses and medicine instead of prayer. The way these people actually live their lives and act on a day to day basis shows very clearly that they have a naturalistic view of the world inside of them. It's just that I think a lot of people are convinced as kids that God is listening to all of their thoughts and intentions, so they don't address the thoughts of a natural world when they enter the mind.

Also, any way you'll address the issue of babies, mentally handicapped and people from other countries and how they are judged when they die? Keep in mind that there are many passages in the Bible that claim the only way to Heaven is through Jesus and there is not other way. Also, do you think Hell is a literal burning place, or just a separation from God? These questions are always interesting because I get so many different answers from people that supposedly believe the same things.
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04-29-2011 07:26 PM  10 years ago
Dennis (RIP)

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Dennis, you're almost 65 but you're not dead yet, and neither is your ability to absorb new information.
Well, I am here aren't I?

Besides, I read a lot. A lot. Not necessarily scientific stuff. My capabilities can only take me so far. I think I recognize that.
Saying that something is "Out of your pay grade" is selling yourself short.
For the most part, not necessarily. See above.
The Physical Cosmology stuff is very interesting and there is a lot to learn about modern physics. There are even concepts that support the idea of a creator, if that's what you are geared towards.
I have read some of those concepts. There is far to much available to absorb it all. But, its why I do favor intelligent design. Again, I cannot prove it.
Exactly what "gaps" are you referring too?
Already explained. See my last post.
There are a lot of interpretations and views on it, but I don't see how it is necessary to deny proven science.
Denying science is one thing. Relying on it as an absolute is another. My favorite quote on that:

"When a scientist tells you ‘The science is settled’ in regard to any subject, he’s ceased to be a scientist, and he’s become an evangelist for one cult or another.

The entire history of science is that nothing in science is ever settled. New discoveries are continuously made, and they upend old certainties.

That should be obvious."

Not knocking science at all. Its great and is largely responsible for the lifestyles we enjoy today and into the future.
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04-29-2011 07:36 PM  10 years ago
RC Dbutz

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Ok, well if the scientific stuff is too heady to read, maybe check out some lectures of these scientists online.

Here is an interesting one, Dr Thomas Campbell and his Big TOE (Theory of Everything):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxECb7zcQhQ

That is just video 1 of 18, but all 18 are well worth watching and some of the concepts will be very interesting to you I believe. How much of it is right or wrong, I don't know for sure, but it's all very interesting and thought provoking.

I've read your quote about science and settling on an idea, I get it, and I agree with it. Science is also evolving and many of the modern concepts still need a LOT of work, but that should let you get to a point of demonizing and denying science altogether. I mean, take philosophy, is anything in philosophy more than just brilliant guess work? Philosophy is subjective, but it doesn't mean that philosophy doesn't have something to teach.
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04-29-2011 07:46 PM  10 years ago
Dennis (RIP)

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Dennis, you say the truth is in our hearts, right?
Well, yeah. Just my opinion.
I always felt deep down in my heart that when I die it is going to be lights out.
Maybe it is the end Dbutz.

Just for myself, I like to think there is more.
I don't know a lot of Christians that deny themselves medical treatment and prefer prayer, or live life thinking that they have no responsibility for what happens here on earth.
Yeah, there are those that are like that out there. Just shows the incredible amount of irresponsibility and outright poor citizenship we all deal with on a daily basis.
It's just that I think a lot of people are convinced as kids that God is listening to all of their thoughts and intentions, so they don't address the thoughts of a natural world when they enter the mind.
As kids, yes. But then we all have to grow up and face whatever reality we are exposed to.
Also, any way you'll address the issue of babies, mentally handicapped and people from other countries and how they are judged when they die?
Well really, I just don't feel I can address that. I would not be so bold myself as to tell others who have no knowledge of my God that their God is not THE God. There are those that do, of course. Thats not for me to do.
Also, do you think Hell is a literal burning place
Nope, we create our own hell right here on this earth. There is plenty to go around. I just don't take the bible literally in many areas. Have I used portions of the bible and deciphered portions of the bible to rest my own heart in ways I choose. Yes, Of course. I'm only human.

The bible was written by man. Man is fallible. Always has been. Always will be. When others say God said this in the bible, and God said that in the bible and is a murder and liar because of that, they are being silly and stupid only for the sake of an argument and being extremely intellectually dishonest.

There are portions in the OT that really speak nasty stuff. Again, written by man. Not God.
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04-29-2011 08:02 PM  10 years ago
Dennis (RIP)

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Here is an interesting one, Dr Thomas Campbell and his Big TOE (Theory of Everything):
Yes, I have seen most of those, if not all of them. Good stuff.
but that should let you get to a point of demonizing and denying science altogether.
Well heck, I have always said here in one form or another that science is great and is largely responsible for the lifestyles we all enjoy today and into the future. I have demonized those that claim some sciences are absolute, proven, and there is no debate. Those are the evangical evolution types. Thats just another religion thats does all the things that they claim other religions do that they despise, hate, are angry at themselves.
I mean, take philosophy, is anything in philosophy more than just brilliant guess work?
Go ahead, take philosophy. Take it far away. Just kidding.

The trouble with the area of philosophy today is that it has gotten so danged convoluted in so many areas by so many silly and ridiculous folks that only wish to delve into areas where they don't have to work and be productive human beings anymore. Our academia are full of them and I have serious doubts they put out much that is truly useful to mankind.
Philosophy is subjective, but it doesn't mean that philosophy doesn't have something to teach.
Where?

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04-29-2011 08:50 PM  10 years ago
outhouse

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evolution is fact and the ToE is a scientific theory which explains that fact. Work on your reading comprehension and then maybe you won't be accused of using strawman arguments
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04-29-2011 08:53 PM  10 years ago
Dennis (RIP)

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evolution is fact and the ToE is a scientific theory which explains that fact. Work on your reading comprehension and then maybe you won't be accused of using strawman arguments
In response, my favorite quote:

"When a scientist tells you ‘The science is settled’ in regard to any subject, he’s ceased to be a scientist, and he’s become an evangelist for one cult or another.

The entire history of science is that nothing in science is ever settled. New discoveries are continuously made, and they upend old certainties.

That should be obvious"

Take another bong hit outhouse.

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04-29-2011 09:31 PM  10 years ago
Yeehaanow

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http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

The first section of the 2007 movie just about sums it all up.
-Tim
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04-29-2011 10:00 PM  10 years ago
RC Dbutz

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Take another bong hit? Really Dennis?! Just when I think you're being reasonable. Why toss around attempted ad hominems like that, it makes you seem like you can't practice a little erudition and just be civil.
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