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HomeAircraftHelicopterRadio - Servo - Gyro - Gov - Batt › Gyro with the most amount of gain?
01-15-2011 01:36 AM  7 years agoPost 61
Eddy

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La Ca

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Ok for the last time, in order to get the Harrier stable it takes 3" long arms to be sensitive enough to make it stable, due to no having enough servo throw out of the gyro even at MAX settings. Due to the servo arm being so long I need to set the ATV way down so I don't over run the puffer limits, so, to fix this problem, if the Gyro made the servo throw greater I could reduce the servo arm length, not once did I say the servo did not move enough but the output of the gyro is not enough.

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01-15-2011 01:39 AM  7 years agoPost 62
Eddy

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La Ca

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The endpoints only matter for manual control, I am using jr digital micro servos, and my radio is programmable.

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01-15-2011 01:44 AM  7 years agoPost 63
Andypants

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Sydney

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IN that case, I'm fresh out of ideas for you except one - Spartan RC make some of the finest gyros available and also are friendly and approachable. I suggest you get over to their site and post a question on their forums - you'll likely get a reply from the man who developed them and he's always helpful and engaged. He'll be able to explain the difference between gain and throw perhaps better than us, and suggest specific hardware or remedies for you.

Good luck!

Lots/Very high/Ridiculously hard/No you can't

I HEART BLADE FARTS

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01-15-2011 02:05 AM  7 years agoPost 64
Eddy

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La Ca

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I will try him also, thanks. There is some disconnect here, are you guys using some fancier gyros? I am not using stuff that's right up to date, just simple gyros. One wire in one out, and pots to adjust the gains, although some of them you can adjust the gain from the transmitter too, not that they have been any better.

Spartan RC looks promising I can't seem to find their phone number do you know it?

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01-15-2011 02:36 AM  7 years agoPost 65
Andypants

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Sydney

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Ah! You notice the disconnect too. Sorry if some of us appear brisque it's just I guess we assume a lot of previous knowledge. You're been pretty patient so far and I personally love Harriers so want to see you flying ASAP.

If you're adjusting pots etc then you have an old gyro and, in my opinion, you're wasting your time on a needlessly complex undertaking that would be made much easier and more effective if you upgrade to the best gyro you can afford first. I know it's an easy piece of advice to give but believe me: you need a good gyro to make your very difficult application a success. The better stuff just plain works - better, easier and more reliably for longer.

In my opinion, Spartan gyros are the best you can get, and endlessly adjustable through a PC interface. Yep - hook it to your puter to adjust pretty much anything and everything you can think of. THIS is the kind of functionality you need to get your project on-track. I still suspect your servo too.

Just hit up their website at http://www.spartan-rc.com. You can find support at http://www.spartan-rc.com/resources/faq/faq.php - I recall forums but can't see them now - however, there's a link in the lower right of that page to go to another heli forum where you can get one-on-one support.

Lots/Very high/Ridiculously hard/No you can't

I HEART BLADE FARTS

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01-15-2011 02:54 AM  7 years agoPost 66
Eddy

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La Ca

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whether adjusting pots or using the transmitter to adjust gains there all the same. However the 15 year old g501 so far has the best results. I sent an email to Spartan we'll see what they say.
Yeah it sucks that people have to come on here and shoot their mouths off, my guess is that offending party is probably younger than the total time i have working on Harriers and been involved with RC equipment, he's probably been lightly involved in a few things and thinks he the god of it, he will have a shock later in life!
Thanks again for your help.

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01-15-2011 11:45 AM  7 years agoPost 67
HeliAdict

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Texas

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So the long arm is nothing more than a mechanical means to speed up the servo!!!
The servo is too slow.

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01-15-2011 02:52 PM  7 years agoPost 68
Eddy

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La Ca

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nope, its to give it the throw, the speed is fine.
This is the servo I am using
JR DS285 MG Digital Sub Micro Servo

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01-15-2011 03:01 PM  7 years agoPost 69
Eddy

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La Ca

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The harrier must be kept withing a few degrees, any more and it's over, the puffers need a lot of movement to keep it in these few degrees. A regular gyro moved only a few degrees puts out hardly any moment on the servo even when everything is maxed out, and the puffers need about ten times that movement to do the same job as increasing or decreasing pitch on a tail rotor with a regular gyro.

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01-15-2011 03:26 PM  7 years agoPost 70
HeliAdict

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Texas

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The harrier must be kept withing a few degrees, any more and it's over, the puffers need a lot of movement
My ATV is set at 14
These two Quotes are contradictory
ATV high does not give higher servo throw from the gyro.
ATV is the travel adjustment on the Gyro. Why don't you try a shorter arm with the ATV set all the way up and in Heading Hold.

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01-15-2011 03:35 PM  7 years agoPost 71
Eddy

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La Ca

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You guys are mixing up the manual control and the gyro control. ATV doesn't influence the gyro unless you put manual input in. The gyro does what it needs to do whether the ATV is at 0 or 120 or your transmitter is turned off. ATV is only setting the limit that you can put in not the gyros.

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01-15-2011 03:52 PM  7 years agoPost 72
HeliAdict

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Texas

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You guys are mixing up the manual control and the gyro control. ATV doesn't influence the gyro unless you put manual input in.
This is where you are wrong. Get a manual..............

You don't think there is any possibility that you could be wrong. If you are so correct why are you on here asking for help. There are several gyros mentioned that have tuning capabilities beyond the ones you have mentioned.

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01-15-2011 04:15 PM  7 years agoPost 73
Eddy

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La Ca

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You know, I sat here for several minutes wondering if i should post this question here, I ended up thinking I wouldn't due to how guys get about this stuff, I ended up leaving this page only to come back a day later and post it anyway, I figured I would keep it vague and hopefully just get straight answers to my questions. I have been through hundreds of hover tests and it works, so I must know what I am doing including the guy doing the IMU board phd students and a few others. I don't expect anyone to have the answers for this unless you have been involved in all of these hover tests. I am getting desperate I figured it would be worth a try to ask you guys also, some of you guys did give me good tips on who to get a hold of and a few things to try so it was not all in vain and I thank those that did help.

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01-15-2011 04:19 PM  7 years agoPost 74
Eddy

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La Ca

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"If you are so correct why are you on here asking for help"
also not once did i ask for help solving this problem. It was just asking about gyros, that's all.

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01-15-2011 04:23 PM  7 years agoPost 75
Frank Bostwick

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Cincinnati Ohio

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I have not read this complete thread so forgive me if Im duplicating. Seems you might get this done with compound arms, linked array if you will, multiplying the movement at each pivot point?
Gearing up as it were...

RIP ROMAN

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01-15-2011 04:38 PM  7 years agoPost 76
Eddy

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La Ca

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Yes that would work, it would make the gyro out put more, but it does the same to manual input, that's is the problem I am having. But thats the same as having really long servo arms. I need more gyro output but not more manual input

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01-15-2011 04:47 PM  7 years agoPost 77
HeliAdict

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Texas

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You asked for opinions and when offered proceeded to tell everyone that they are wrong. There are many on here that have been using gyros and setting them up well for many years. PID's are huge part of what I do for a living. They are a staple in the controls world. If it works then you would not be trying to do anything differently. There was obviously something wrong with the original control board or it would not need to be redesigned hence why you are still waiting. There is always more to the story than a person wants everyone to know.

The gyro senses angular movement but needs a method by which to respond to the sensed movement. The gyro is nothing without a device to output to (servo). It must all work together. You can only tune the response to the sensed movement. Gain is the amount of output for the response to the sensed movement. The higher the gain the more travel output for less sensed movement. The sensitivity to movement has been greatly enhanced with newer gyros with better sensors. Even with more sensitive sensors, that just means that it will sense movement in lesser amounts and quicker. This will not change the output parameters much. Your servo choice is not a good fit for the responses you are trying to achieve. We cannot know if you need the torque but We can tell you that the problem is not in the gyro selections but in you servo selection.

HSG-5084MG
http://www.hitecrcd.com/products/di...hsg-5084mg.html

LOOK at the difference in speed. This equates to the response time from the gyro.

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01-15-2011 05:23 PM  7 years agoPost 78
Eddy

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La Ca

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"The higher the gain the more travel output for less sensed movement." isn't this what everyone has been disagreeing with?
Does this not mean more gain more servo travel?

Well this is what I need, by ten times.

Yes there was something wrong with the original board or I would not be on here. The original board was an old board, there was problems with and I quote "channels stepping on each other" he explained it to me but I don't understand what it means. Something to do with the way 2.4 works. After that was done and worked, he got a newer more powerful board with more out puts on it that would solve this problem. He has also put a wifi on it to be able to record what the plane is doing and so we can change gains from the PC. The interface for this wifi is whats slowing us down.

Whether people have been setting these up for years including myself on helis for 15 years,you cant offer up advice on something you are not involved with. This has completely different dynamics than a heli, I though I had all the answers when I started the hover tests with this thing, boy was I wrong, it was at this point I threw everything away about what I thought I knew and started to understand this thing

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01-15-2011 06:07 PM  7 years agoPost 79
Frank Bostwick

rrElite Veteran

Cincinnati Ohio

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There are a few companies that do recording and telemetry, including GPS positioning. I dont know the sample rate but it they are tailored for this environment and may help remove a bottle neck.....Eagle tree is one company I know there are others

RIP ROMAN

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01-15-2011 06:31 PM  7 years agoPost 80
ChristianM

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Oslo, Norway

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The harrier must be kept withing a few degrees, any more and it's over, the puffers need a lot of movement
I am not using HH
You should be using Heading Hold mode on your gyro for this application as it will do all the hard work for you. Using the gyro in normal mode will slow the repose for the plane down which will make it easier to control but you really want to use heading hold for this application.
My ATV is set at 14
You guys are mixing up the manual control and the gyro control. ATV doesn't influence the gyro unless you put manual input in.

The ATV in your transmitter has a big influence on the gyro but not on the end points of the servo. In heading hold mode the ATV in the transmitter controls the maximum rate of rotation or sensitivity if you will. The servo end points is set on the gyro and not on the transmitter using ATV. You have to refer to the gyro manual for setting these.

I suggest that you do the following:
  1. Set the ATV in your transmitter to 100%
  2. Set your gyro to heading hold
  3. Set the end points in your gyro to 100%
  4. Adjust your servo arm length to allow to give full range of your control surface (puffers)
  5. Fine adjust the end point in the gyro
  6. Go fly, it should work.
Edit: Check out page 31 in the Gy501 manual for setting the servo limit (LMT%)

Christian

Burn fuel, be happy

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HomeAircraftHelicopterRadio - Servo - Gyro - Gov - Batt › Gyro with the most amount of gain?
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