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HomeRC & PowerAircraftHelicopterEngines Plugs Mufflers Fuel › tim jones prototype ys120 trex 700 video is up for viewing
01-13-2011 02:14 AM  7 years agoPost 41
deanguy

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TX

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So when does the YS 1.20 come out?

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01-13-2011 02:23 AM  7 years agoPost 42
hornet dave

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Cedar Rapids, IA USA

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to laughingstill:

Exactly. It's all pretty silly.

Now if I only had a dime for every time someone said "Wow listen to that heli - it's got a lot of POWER." I could probably have another set of batts for my 6HV.

FYI measuring power isn't terribly difficult but you would need to build a motor stand which allows you to measure torque, a tach, a prop adapter and a bunch of props. You could do it on the cheap for $100 i'm sure. It's too much work just to measure a number which at the end of the day doesn't add anything to your heli experience.

I got a fever! The only prescription is MORE 6HV

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01-13-2011 02:33 AM  7 years agoPost 43
baby_zyklon

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Singapore

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Hornet dave, I didn't really look at your calculation and I have no idea about the units...but I do know that 2 stroke engine is not exactly efficent...maybe 10%? I honestly don't know the number.

Neither is electric motor 100% efficient, but it should be way higher, like 80% or more, shouldn't it?

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01-13-2011 02:50 AM  7 years agoPost 44
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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How much heavier is the 1.20 motor than the .90?

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01-13-2011 02:54 AM  7 years agoPost 45
hornet dave

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Cedar Rapids, IA USA

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Exactly.

Here's the rub - electric motors can have wildly different efficiencies.

So, let's take two different motors, Motor A and B

Motor A produces 3000W peaks through the ESC

Motor B produces 2500W peaks through the ESC

Which one makes more power?

The answer is.... we don't know from this info!

So let's say Motor A, under load, has a 70% efficiency and Motor B is 85% under load. Then we get:

Motor A output power = 2100W
Motor B output power = 2125W

In this case, I would hope I have Motor B in my heli.

But, in the world of internet forums, the bigger number wins. So, people with the Brand A motor will go online and say "hey i got 3000W out of mine!" while the Brand B folks will say "Hey i'm only getting 2500W - this motor sucks i'm switching to Brand A." Then they'll complain about their flights being a minute shorter but they don't really mind so much because the power is worth it.

I got a fever! The only prescription is MORE 6HV

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01-13-2011 02:57 AM  7 years agoPost 46
Rob43

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Midland, MI USA

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I keep hearing about these 90Es putting out 10HP on 12s,can someone please direct me to a video.Thats twice + the power of my 90s and i feel i have adequate power

If this is true then its putting out more power than my 3W 100 ON A 35%

I just want to see some proof.I have seen some vids but i couldnt tell any difference in E power v/s Nitro.and has this proof been dyno tested or just assumption?
Heli papa - I hear you...I feel my T600 nitro also has plenty of power, but not as much abundance as does my 6S5000 Outrage 550 with an 1800 watt motor...more to the point, when I was at IRCHA 2010, I pitted near where Tim flew his "Beast" electric. It was freakin' scary how much insane power was being imparted on the air by those rotors. Holding crazy pitch without throttle management...just sick power loops that sounded scary. The biggest thing I see the 12S machines doing which shows me how much greater the power is, is the lack of bog or lag the main rotor has when in climbing manuevers. Watch Kyle Dahl's Logo 600, or anything similar. It rockets to altitude like it's not even there, faster than the 90 nitros.

Rob

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01-13-2011 03:32 AM  7 years agoPost 47
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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Heli papa,

Regardless of the debates about calculating hp through math, the logger data for rpm really tells the story of the power these eletric models have.

For example, let's first take a 450 kV motor and gear it at between 9.7 and 10:1 on 12S. In this configuration, the system will not hold 2000 rpm under any kind of load. Next, I can raise the gearing to 9.3 or 9.5 and have the model easily have the power to pull 2000 rpm at 10D of pitch with only modest rpm drops under load. The system will pull about 4000 watts like this. From there we can continue to make the gearing taller and taller down into the mid or lower 8's of gearing while at the same time pulling pitch of 11-13D of pitch with little or no drop in headspeed. We can prove this on a logger. Unlike a glow engine, an eletric system will pull harder and harder the more you load it up to the limitations of the ESC, motor, and batteries. Of late we have 65C batteries and 120-160 NOMINAL ESC's that will deliver all the current for which the motor asks under nominal loading and will for the most part keep up for bursts of nearly twice nominal wattage. There is no way in hell even a 120 glow engine can do this. If anyone doubts this fact, then put an RPM sensor on an Eagletree and watch just how much the rpm drops under load. Guys claim how their nitro model will pull so and so much pitch at 2000 rpm. If "pull" means load a bit going straight up and keep going, then that's fine. If "pull" means holding the set rpm under pure collective and then even, for the most part, with cyclic thrown in on top, then you're going to be disappointed with what a logger tells you about the nitro engine. If the new 120 is a 5 hp motor with the right exhaust and 30%, that's great. But the most you're going to ever get out of is that 5hp. Load the electric harder, and it'll blow by 5 hp and just keep right on going for more than just a few seconds of burst.

A word, too, about this runtime thing that guys bring up. The 700 class electrics that will only go 4:30 are often geared to make 7000+ watts of power, and guys ask for it often in a flight because that much power under your left thumb is really fun. If you geared that same model to something more sensible, flight times would be remarkably more similar to a glow model making the same amount of power. I can get 6:45+ out of my 700 class model which is geared to peak around 4000W. If a nitro model were consistently peaking at 7+ hp over the course of a flight while roughly holding set rpm, I double damn guarantee anyone that the model would not run 8 or 9 minutes on only 20 ounces of glow fuel. You simply can't make that much power at our typical engine rpm with but so little fuel .

Ben Minor

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

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01-13-2011 03:52 AM  7 years agoPost 48
RyanW

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Edmond, Oklahoma

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consistently delivering
That is THE phrase that gets confused and misinterpreted.

No argument that electrics have gobs of torque and unreal power (ie my eAurora), but the claims of 14+HP are only bursts of power. If you look at your logger, you aren't pulling 200+ amps consistently. That is how we are able to run 10 and 12ga wire on our batteries. If we were truly pulling the insane power consistently, we would literally be melting the wires.

The technology is gaining leaps and bounds. We are already to the point of having consistent power (my biggest gripe about electrics in the early days) during the flight, which we didn't have a handful of years ago.

As for Tim's Beast, it is unreal, but it will cause the ESC to cut out on demand even with the bundle of capacitors on the nose of the heli. To say he has that power available throughout the flight is not correct.

-Ryan
Mikado USA, Kontronik, Opti-Power, MKS Servos

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01-13-2011 04:10 AM  7 years agoPost 49
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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As for Tim's Beast, it is unreal, but it will cause the ESC to cut out on demand even with the bundle of capacitors on the nose of the heli
Not to be off topic, but is there a link to a photograph of his 14S Trex anywhere that I could look at?

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01-13-2011 04:26 AM  7 years agoPost 50
Band1086

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Kennewick, Wa. USA

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I wish less time would be spent on trying so hard to match/compare to the performance of a 12S 700 class electric and more on focusing on getting the motor to run well, as smoothly as a 90, and with comparable bearing life. It's a pointless pissing match any other way because whatever weight or power figure to which you're comparing is going to be history in 6-12 months with the way electric technology is evolving and without any increase in all up model weight but with progressively increasing power and flight time.
Not to be off topic, but is there a link to a photograph of his 14S Trex anywhere that I could look at?
It's a 12S...2X 5000 6S TP 45C's. I saw him fly it at Brooks in June.
It cut out twice during the flight. He glided for a few seconds with a little head speed, and it kicked up again....I think he said he was running 2300 or 2350 HS.

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01-13-2011 04:28 AM  7 years agoPost 51
ShuRugal

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Killeen, TX

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But the most you're going to ever get out of is that 5hp. Load the electric harder, and it'll blow by 5 hp and just keep right on going.
This is a misleading statement. Just because the motor is drawing a given wattage does not mean it is turning that wattage into power. One you get so much current into a motor (or any coil for that matter) the EM field generated by each individual winding starts working more to push the coils apart than it does to turn the motor. Once you pass this point, you can draw all the extra power you want, all it will do is cook your motor.

By your logic, i should be able to plug any motor i like into 120 mains power via a compatible ESC to do the job, and it will pull my house down the block.

Electric motors have performance limits just as do IC engines. The critical difference in our hobby is that loading up an electric motor does not compromise its ability to make power, whereas bogging down an IC engine does.

If you want to have some numbers to brag about, take your electric motor and attach it to a dyno, the attach a comparable-size glow engine and compare the results. The wattage being pulled through the ESC is not the HP being put out by the motor. Saying that it is is the same as claiming that the BTU output of the fuel a nitro burns is the same as the HP that motor can put out.

AMA 700159

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01-13-2011 04:33 AM  7 years agoPost 52
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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Ryan,

I agree with you. Point of clarification for what I was saying about Tim's model. I'm not saying it will allow him to pull that kind of power ongoing. The distinction is that the electric will allow him to ask for the power in increments over the course of the flight while maintaining something near his set rpm, while the nitro cannot produce that kind of peak while the headspeed is maintained. Hell, even if his average power was only 2/3 or less of his peak (still well over statistical majority), he'd likely be making well over 5hp and I doubt causing any component in the system to cut out or down regulate.

I shudder to think of the kind of power these models are going to be able to pull not just consistently (meaning repeated peaks over and over through the flight) but CONSTANTLY (which means just what it says) in months or just a year from now. Geeeeezzzzzzzzz...............

Ben

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

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01-13-2011 04:40 AM  7 years agoPost 53
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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Watch at YouTube

Is this the Tim Jones Trex 700E we're referring to? 12S?

My new Scorpion motor is supposed to put out a peak of 9200 watts which is around 12HP. But it's only rated at 4300 watts continuous.

Where do they get the 14HP rating for the Trex 700E in the video?

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01-13-2011 04:41 AM  7 years agoPost 54
Heliguychris

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Perth, West Australia

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^^ test flights peering out a bunker

And where can i buy that motor ? Is it a buggy motor?

I got a heli here, that when i can get a decent pilot to fly it for me, will " hold a candle" to that. Didnt know it was a FB either....cool.

Licensed (CASA) UAV operator certificate holder 1-YFOF5-01 www.helicamaerial.com.au

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01-13-2011 05:01 AM  7 years agoPost 55
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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Shu,

I fully understand that the conversion of the power in the batteries is not completely efficient. If it were, we wouldn't have heat sinks on ESC's and have to watch the temps of the motors. An electric model will literally melt itself down and/or burn itself up trying to deliver what is asked of it and if that request is excessive. I usually qualify any statement I make about potential power from electric with the phrase "up to the limitations of the weakest link in the system".

When you've flown a 700 class electric, what has been your impression about the power disparity between it and a 91 sized nitro model you've also flown? My little corner of the world is flying AMA/F3C. When we went from glow (and I mean the finest 91 engines you could buy tuned to run as hard as they could except maybe for Scott Gray's whose run harder still) there was absolutely no comparison in power. You don't need a dyno to prove it; you can feel it when you're flying. That's why I said earlier that it was such a pissing match to debate the power of a nitro verus an electric within the airframes in question. Each propulsion system ought to have its own personal sandbox .

Ben Minor

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

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HomeRC & PowerAircraftHelicopterEngines Plugs Mufflers Fuel › tim jones prototype ys120 trex 700 video is up for viewing
01-13-2011 05:07 AM  7 years ago •• Post 56 ••
wc_wickedclown (RIP)

rrProfessor

long beach calif

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Watch at YouTube

Insha Allah made in america

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01-13-2011 05:17 AM  7 years agoPost 57
Band1086

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Kennewick, Wa. USA

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When you've flown a 700 class electric, what has been your impression about the power disparity between it and a 91 sized nitro model?
When we went from glow (and I mean the finest 91 engines you could buy tuned to run as hard as they could except maybe for Scott Gray's whose run harder still) there was absolutely no comparison in power. You don't need a dyno to prove it; you can feel it when you're flying. That's why I said earlier that it was such a pissing match to debate the power of a nitro verus an electric within the airframes in question. It ain't close to the same now, and going to a 120 is not going to make it a level field either.
When a person has PERSONALLY EPERIENCED the difference, it's hard not to post about it!!!

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01-13-2011 07:05 AM  7 years agoPost 58
AaronJohnson

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mason,MI

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Nothing to argue about here, just my opinion and maybe it will just cause a few people to think.

If I could only have one heli I can garan-damn-tee you it would be a nitro and I wouldn't have it any other way! Some people may think "Why? Electric is sooo much better, cleaner, more powerfull!"

To me, who cares, I can't do anything more with my electric then I can with my nitro. I personally get so much more enjoyment going to the field, starting up my heli and making some smoke.

Now tell me this, what the hell is wrong with people in this hobby working toward advancing nitro performance? Should they not bother because "electric has them covered"?

I KNOW there is other people like me out there! Can I get a hell yea for the YS120SR? LOL

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01-13-2011 07:39 AM  7 years agoPost 59
wc_wickedclown (RIP)

rrProfessor

long beach calif

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AaronJohnson I KNOW there is other people like me out there! Can I get a hell yea for the YS120SR? LOL
HELL YA

gonna lift some milk jugs with mine

Insha Allah made in america

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01-13-2011 08:40 AM  7 years agoPost 60
ch-47c

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san jose, ca

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747 watts equals 1 HP. Actually 746.27. Easy number to remember. Boeing 747. Had to learn it for a test over 30 yrs ago.
There is a formula for the conversion for watts to horsepower.

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