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12-30-2010 07:37 AM  7 years agoPost 21
SeismicCWave

rrVeteran

Hilo, Hawaii

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>>Well here is one of your problems it seems. Klotz apparently cannot be run that rich, since your ring got stuck twice already.<<

I have a feeling that is definitely part of my problem.

>>Order and use some Penzoil Marine fully Synthetic. That is what Chris Bergen recommends and uses at 5oz per gallon. That oil is thin compared to Amsoil for example, so you need more of it in my opinion than less.<<

I am trying to locate some local source. I have heard good things about the Honda racing oil but we don't even have a Honda dealer close by.

All I can find are the weedeater variety. I just may have to try those.

>>For the red coil, fix it like this:<<

Right now I just eyeballed it. I hope it works.

>>I would assume the head gasket was sealed fine. Now that you took it apart you should add some rtv if you don't have a new gasket to ensure a good seal.<<

I assume that also. After I took it apart I cleaned the join line of the two crank case halves hoping to get a better seal. Then I put a thin layer of high temperature RTV.

>>Do NOT tolerate anything higher than 270 on hot days.<<

I don't think my temperature was that bad. It was only the hottest flash that I read 292. I couldn't tell where the laser dot actually was pointing at. Everywhere else was way cooler. I followed the temperature thread a long time ago. Apparently there are some confusion as to how the temperatures are measured and when.

I have the plastic insulator on the carb. The gaskets are all blue.

I just finished putting everything back together. Now that I know I have another engine on the way the outlook is not as bad. I guess the stake is not as high anymore. For some strange reason I think the engine is going to run ok now. Maybe for the first time.

Thanks for all the help. I will report back after testing tomorrow.

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12-30-2010 08:53 AM  7 years agoPost 22
SeismicCWave

rrVeteran

Hilo, Hawaii

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Next question:

What is a good 2 stroke oil for the Zenoah?

Where do I find the Pennsoil Marine synthetic oil?

I will check and see if the boating supply house will have any.

Otherwise what are some alternatives?

Royal Purple 2 stroke racing oil?

Stihl chainsaw 2 stroke oil?

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12-30-2010 09:36 AM  7 years agoPost 23
shawmcky

rrElite Veteran

Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

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If your motor is getting hot and suffering with ring sticking i would think it might be a good idea to check your throttle and pitch curves are easy on the engine,this is a critical area with gassers and must have killed many a motor,a governor can be all over the place if the engine is not set up properly so would be a good idea to try get the engine tune/curves sweet first then use the governor.When i first got into gassers this was one of the hardest parts to get right and takes a lot of patience,it is easy to damage a motor through slogging it and running it too hot.Been there done that

Team- unbiased opinion.K.I.S.S principle upheld here

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12-30-2010 10:52 AM  7 years agoPost 24
shawmcky

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Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

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Stihl chainsaw oils seem to work well so far for my gassers.

Team- unbiased opinion.K.I.S.S principle upheld here

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12-30-2010 02:59 PM  7 years agoPost 25
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Where to get Penzoil Marine
http://oilstore.stores.yahoo.net/pen100synout.html

This one is for 3 gallons for about $85 shipped to you.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...&classNum=10435

This one is for 1 gallon for about $48 shipped to you.

I bought the 3 gallons deal and have already gone through a gallon and a half in less than a year. If you anticipate to fly alot, that's a much better deal than the 1 gallon.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4220 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3310 flts
Whiplash V1-2 Hanson 300, 1618 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 473 flts

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12-30-2010 03:10 PM  7 years agoPost 26
Chris Bergen

rrElite Veteran

cassopolis, MI USA

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Damn...

+1 for all of Raja's advice.

PLUS, take a CLOSE look at the plastic (actually phenolic) insulator block.

Look for cracks, warping, AND take a close look at the bushings on teh engine side of the block. They should NOT be protruding out from the block. If they are, this is a COMMON source of leakage.

This is also why we recommend the aluminum insulator block with teflon gaskets, such as the Z-RC or Hansons...

The Klotz oil is not helping you with the ring, as you surmised.

If running with the governor, turn it off until you have a good tune on the engine. It CAN be masking the fact that you're tuning is off.

Chris D. Bergen

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12-30-2010 04:18 PM  7 years agoPost 27
Dave Willis

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Sevierville, TN USA

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I wish SeismicCwave would hurry and get back to let us know how things are going since he reinstalled the motor. I'm dying to know how it does and what was causing the problem. I had a similar issue with a 230RC. Running Stihl Oil 32:1 both needles 1 1/2 turns out with a Z-RC Insulator and I had a stuck ring also, on the second gallon of fuel

Dave

Futaba AMA 6679 IRCHA 675 VHA 11

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12-30-2010 06:52 PM  7 years agoPost 28
CNCjunkie

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Kauai (The Garden Isle), Hawaii - USA

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Damn...

+1 for all of Raja's advice.

PLUS, take a CLOSE look at the plastic (actually phenolic) insulator block.

Look for cracks, warping, AND take a close look at the bushings on teh engine side of the block. They should NOT be protruding out from the block. If they are, this is a COMMON source of leakage.

This is also why we recommend the aluminum insulator block with teflon gaskets, such as the Z-RC or Hansons...

The Klotz oil is not helping you with the ring, as you surmised.

If running with the governor, turn it off until you have a good tune on the engine. It CAN be masking the fact that you're tuning is off.
Raja's and Chris's advise is all good stuff. More than enough info here to eliminate what ever the cause is.

Reading through I also suspect over heating and cooking the oil is probably the best (worst) scenario here.

When I first started into Gassers, I got really nervous when I discovered my engine was getting into the 250 degree and above zone. Luckily I was slightly rich at that time, so no damage. Now I make sure I check the temps every so often.

I used the R50 for a while with no ill results, but there is carbon build up with this oil. I now swear by the Quicksilver for break-in and the Pennzoil for after break-in. Very little if any deposits with these oils.

SeismicCWave, if you can't find the Pennzoil, let me know and I'll send you a quart. I'm able to obtain it at my local Ace Hardware. As for the Quicksilver, I had to order it through Amazon and paid hefty shipping, but I feel it was well worth it in the long run.

Just another crappy day in Paradise....Aloha!

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12-30-2010 06:57 PM  7 years agoPost 29
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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LOL, thanks Raja, I found West Marine via Google also. I will order from them.

I just ordered some gaskets from Dave's Motors just in case and ordered some Blue Marble oil in quarts size. I doubt I will fly as much gasser as Raja did. I do have five electric helicopters that I have to maintain and fly for my AP work. I have probably 16 helicopters large and small so the gasser is just something that get my focus right now.

Thanks Chris on the aluminum block. Where do I get one? Should my Hanson Pro Plus come with one? I will look in the box.

My Stator Gator is not working so there has been no governor mode. I am not stupid and will not run the governor until I get the engine tuned. So far I have not run the governor at all since I have never gotten the engine tuned yet.

Believe me the insulating block is NOT leaking. I have checked the gasket and the block many many times.

Sorry Dave, I don't want to annoy my neighbors too early in the morning. Wait a couple more hours before I can fly. If you have a stuck ring I am not going to try the Stihl oil.

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12-30-2010 07:11 PM  7 years agoPost 30
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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I would have never thought of the local Ace Hardware as an oil source. I will look into mine. I am actually tempted to go out in the shed and look for some garden variety Shindaiwa 2 stroke oil.

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12-30-2010 07:26 PM  7 years agoPost 31
CNCjunkie

rrVeteran

Kauai (The Garden Isle), Hawaii - USA

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I would have never thought of the local Ace Hardware as an oil source.
I didn't either until I was in there looking for something else and the yellow bottles caught my eye.

If they don't have it on your island, they might be able to order it for you.

Just another crappy day in Paradise....Aloha!

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12-30-2010 07:47 PM  7 years agoPost 32
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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>>If they don't have it on your island, they might be able to order it for you.<<

I am also hoping one of the boating place carries it.

I think Chris may have hit the issue on the head. I just found out I have two insulating blocks. One (the one on the engine) actually has the bushing sticking out quite far. That may very well be the culprit. Since I re-use gaskets I couldn't really tell which block was sealing and which wasn't. So I just took the better one and smooth the surface out even more on a piece of glass with some very fine grit sandpaper. The surface is now evenly dull and I put a thin layer of RTV on it making sure I don't plug up the holes.

Hopefully this will solve the lean run problem.

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12-30-2010 08:16 PM  7 years agoPost 33
CNCjunkie

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Kauai (The Garden Isle), Hawaii - USA

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Hopefully that does the trick for you.

I don't put much faith in the stock insulator. Some swear by them but I prefer the CNC variety. You can find the Z-RC insulators here:

http://www.davesmotors.com/s.nl/c.8...it.A/id.4477/.f

BHH also has thier version which uses thinner Teflon gaskets.

Just another crappy day in Paradise....Aloha!

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12-30-2010 08:58 PM  7 years agoPost 34
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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Sorry guys, no joy.

The engine started up easily with the pull start. Yes Raja I did fuel through the return line.

Every thing I did made zero difference.

I kept the needles at 1 1/2 turn from close. It transitioned ok but the engine is lacking power and running rough. So I leaned in 1/8 turn on the high needle. No help.

So I started to richen it up. It transitioned better. Now I can lift off clean but the surge came back. So I called it quits.

I changed to the extra carburetor I have. I knew the carburetor is no good because the fuel bulb won't even suck fuel to the return.

Sure enough. I can crank all day and it will fire but won't keep running.

So much for all my spare parts.

I suspect carburetion at this point. It is almost like the motor will run find for a bit when there is a surge of fuel and momentarily bog when the fuel runs low in the reservoir.

So all I can do is wait for the new engine to show up so I can put this one to the grinder.

Actually the engine may still be fine. I did order a new carburetor from Dave's Motor so I can give that a try. It is suppose to be the WT 919.

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12-30-2010 11:35 PM  7 years agoPost 35
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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I must be the most stubborn person in the world to keep at this. I just realized I bought this helicopter and engine around 2007. I am sure Chris can find my original purchase date but that is not important. I built it in the beginning of 2009 I think. I have not put up a single good flight from this combination. I believe in car purchase term they call this a lemon.

I can finally sympathize with these newbies snapping up those new fandangle multi rotors flying machines. Very little learning curve and you just go fly!

Today was a total bust. I finally got the engine started with the old carburetor I have. Then I realized the reason why I simply bought another carburetor. This old carburetor will NOT transition to high speed, period. I can start it, idle it and every time I transition to high speed it just dies. I have checked every single orifice and diaphragm and one way valve. I have looked at exploded diagrams from Walbro and they all looked different from this carb. I dare not open the second one since I have no rebuild kit.

With so many things that can go wrong how can anyone keep flying gas powered helicopter. I just had to put one of my electric up for a flight to feel good about this.

Talk about getting burned out.

Edit:
Just another story

I bought an antique a while back. It was a Schluter Heli Star brand new in the box. I started building it but work took over and it took me over two years to complete it. In the meantime I bought an OS 60 short stroke glow engine from eBay. I mounted the engine on the Heli Star and it was there for at least 2 years. Guess what, the first crank it started and it ran like a dream for the entire first flight.

That's what I called user friendly.

Also look at all those weekenders that buy a weed wacker from Walmart or Home Depot. They just run them until they die. Those weed wacker engines just kept on working week end after weekend. What the hell is so great about this BH Hanson "modified" crap anyway.

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12-31-2010 12:27 AM  7 years agoPost 36
Dave Willis

rrVeteran

Sevierville, TN USA

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SeismicCWave
I bought one of those "Green Machine" Wal Mart weedeaters, used at an Auction, and used it for YEARS. Was one of the few things I got custody of when I got divorced. I used every brand oil out there, what ever I could find when I ran out. I remember buying a bottle at the Quick Mart. Just poured a 4oz bottle in a gallon of gas. It started every Spring, NEVER rebuilt the carb. I would run it daily cleaning the fence row around my pasture. I'm sure I did, but I don't remember ever changing the plug. It was running when I gave it away. The only reason I quit using it was cuz I wanted a weedeater I could put a blade head on. I bought a Stihl and it has ran excellent the past three seasons, never skipped a beat either.
I'd like to know how a weedeater can be used/abused and it will run for years and these heli motors give us such a fit and are so tempremental.
I too, am discouraged.

Dave

Futaba AMA 6679 IRCHA 675 VHA 11

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12-31-2010 12:46 AM  7 years agoPost 37
SeismicCWave

rrVeteran

Hilo, Hawaii

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>>I'd like to know how a weedeater can be used/abused and it will run for years and these heli motors give us such a fit and are so tempremental.
I too, am discouraged.<<

I think we really need to go back to the basics.

1) Don't try to get too much horse power out of the engine.
2) Use a carburetor with a smaller throat diameter.
3) Never use a tuned muffler.
4) Design a helicopter to take the vibration.
5) Fly electric.

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12-31-2010 02:17 AM  7 years agoPost 38
KopterKat

rrVeteran

New Jersey

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I've read this post and I have a question. What carb are you using WT 643 or 644? Because if it's something else this may be part of the problem.


FlipMode Squad

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12-31-2010 02:46 AM  7 years agoPost 39
SeismicCWave

rrVeteran

Hilo, Hawaii

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>>I've read this post and I have a question. What carb are you using WT 643 or 644? Because if it's something else this may be part of the problem.<<

I don't have a clue. I thought it is a WT643 but I am not sure. This came from B H Hanson when I bought the engine and the second carburetor I bought from B H Hanson is the same thing.

Edit: I found the stamp on the carburetor. They are 643s.

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12-31-2010 09:40 AM  7 years agoPost 40
shawmcky

rrElite Veteran

Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

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My collection of gassers all on Stihl,all fly well,the old Kalt being the oldest with an original 15year old motor,the one that needs the most attention to detail because of its age.Keep at the gassers it takes time but dont become addicted ,they take up a lot of space with the planes and nitro stuff,never mind the odd electric.Patience is the keyNot knocking other oils,Stihl oil is easily obtainable here in the U.K

Team- unbiased opinion.K.I.S.S principle upheld here

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