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12-29-2010 06:41 AM  7 years agoPost 1
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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I need to get some ideas on how many turns a high speed needle needs to be loosen before I can safely say there is something wrong with my setup.

I know it is a generalized question and I will get some answers about how every engine is different etc. Please rest assure that I do understand many of the nuisances with fuel powered engine. I have been playing with them for more years that I care to remember (Let's say 40 years is not far fetched). However I had forgotten because if I have not had as many engines to compare recently.

I have a BH Hanson Pro Plus Zenoah G260 PUH in a Bergen Gasser. I am having problems with this setup from day one. No, I am not bad mouthing any one or anything. Individually I have tested each components and each components by itself works fine. It is just trying to get the combination to work together that is driving me nuts.

The Bergen manual said to start off with low speed and high speed needle at 1 3/8 turns from closed and that is a good starting point.

Right now I have the low speed needle at around 1 1/2 turns but the high speed needle is at 2 1/2 turns.

From my experience a gas engine doesn't require that many turn of the needle to get into the proper adjustment. Usually 1/8 of a turn either way will get me in the proper adjustment.

However I am experiencing a bad surge that is requiring me to continue to open up my high speed needle farther and farther. The surge is getting better and going away. I finally managed a good hover with very little vibration when I am at least 2 1/4 to 2 3/8 turn out on the high speed needle. I still have the engine surged once after lift off but the rest of the hover was steady.

I have never experienced any four stroking with this engine or anything that seems rich yet.

This is my second carburetor already and I hate to dump more money into it to shotgun a solution.

So Please let me know what kind of high speed needle setting you are using and I will see what every one has to say.

I am ready to do more test hops again tomorrow. My electrics and glow fueled helicopters never gave me this much problems.

Thank you.

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12-29-2010 08:30 AM  7 years agoPost 2
tott

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Maui Hawaii

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....
I guess you could always save yourself some trouble and just sell it to me.....LOL

I have two Bergen Intrepid Eb's and the 1 3/8 turns is pretty close to what I have stuck with on both helis. Only needing a small adjustment to fly and keep it smooth.

Have you tried to email Chris directly to ask for help ?

Hope you get it all worked out as the Bergen Heli's are the best.

JASON

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12-29-2010 09:23 AM  7 years agoPost 3
shawmcky

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Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

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Chris bergen or Hanson would be my first call,their products and expertise.Are you really at 2.5 turns on the high on two different carbs?

Team- unbiased opinion.K.I.S.S principle upheld here

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12-29-2010 03:08 PM  7 years agoPost 4
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Check
Your filter and clunk line. Use Walbro 615-912 for a felt clunk, the best out there. Don't use really thin ID feed line, maybe not enough fuel flow.

Make sure your insulator gaskets are on the right way, so that the pulse hole from the cylinder to the carb is not blocked.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4220 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3310 flts
Whiplash V1-2 Hanson 300, 1618 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 473 flts

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12-29-2010 03:14 PM  7 years agoPost 5
Dr. Fibinotchi

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Sioux Falls SD

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hmm
Sounds like a air leak and or fuel issue. If you are openning up the amount of fuel to the engine IE richening the needle a lot you have too much air % wise and are trying to compensate to get your engine happy with the air air to gas. If you are clogged in your fuel system like the carb full of junk you are trying to compensate the same way to get the engine to run right. Since your changed carbs you did some of the divide and conquer method. Looks like a air leak. I would check your gaskets. I had this happen on my 1005 with the tuned pipe and it snuck up slow and bit me on the but.

You never mentioned which carb this is as well or ratio you where using.

Electrics and glow dont require much thought I agree, however if its a air leak this is one of the things that is frustrating. Changing carbs should have proved it to be the carb or not. I know it can be frustrating but stick with it. If you take apart the motor let us know what you see. If you see fuel or wetness on any gasket let us know. Stick with it. They sometimes lable gassers as 'adult swim' for a reason.

-Cody

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

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12-29-2010 07:00 PM  7 years agoPost 6
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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Thank you all. it is very helpful.

1) Tott, yes I have contemplated selling it. I actually tried to sell it before I even build it. Unfortunately I got some really obnoxious low baller. I was a bit insulted. Some one offered me to buy the package (Engine and helicopter brand new in the box) for $500. I decided to keep it for my own use and built it.

2) The Bergen helicopter is not the issue. Yes I have issues like the bolts that hold the tail gear box kept on coming off but that is another story.

3) I can pretty much ruled out gasket the wrong way since that is one of the first thing I checked. Besides the gaskets has two holes. I bought a Byron Cap 21 and a G38 gas engine for very cheap many years ago because the user had the gasket on backwards and the engine could never run for a long duration except for what ever fuel in the carb.

4) I have not ruled out gummed up carburetor.

5) Let's ignore the old carburetor issue for the moment because that is another story that spanned over 9 months. Yes I bought this combination a few years ago and yes I have been trying to get this to fly right for at least 1 1/2 year. No, it has not flown properly yet and yes i am stubborn. I want to make this work. I have considered buying a new engine.

6) I will buy a new carburetor just so I have a spare. I can't find my old carburetor. Besides I rebuilt the old carb but the fuel bulb on the side will not suck up any fuel still.

7) Raja, yes the clunk was my first suspect and I have replaced the stock clunk with a felt clunk.

8) I am using 1/8" ID tygon fuel tubing. The 3/16" ID tubing is too BIG. Now that you mentioned it. I do have a fuel filter in line. I will remove that to test.

9) Shawmcky, yes I have corresponded with both Al and Chris for a while. Al is really good with returning email but Chris is not. Neither had been very helpful except to tell me the same thing. That was the last bout I had with this combination. I have to be motivated to spend the time to sort this combination out. I have put the combination away because of frustration many times. I have changed the combination because of frustration many times. As I mentioned the Bergen flew very nice as an electric. I do have the electric bottom half that I just swap with the gas bottom half. The gas engine runs very nicely by itself without the top half.

10) Finally yes, I do have the high speed needle out at 2 1/2 turn.

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12-29-2010 08:10 PM  7 years agoPost 7
tott

rrApprentice

Maui Hawaii

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hmmmmm
I do not need another heli.....BUT...if you were to sell the bergen what would you need to get for it to make it worth your while ? And would you sell just the gas combination or would you sell the gas and electric bottom half ?

Just curious......LOL

The fuel filter in line is what I suspect at this point... The use of a fuel filter as you fuel the heli is all you need. Just put it inline on your gassing station and leave the filtering to before you fill the heli with fuel..

Best of luck
JASON

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12-29-2010 08:30 PM  7 years agoPost 8
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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I have no clue what I would sell it for. I really dislike selling anything (I am a pack rat and my Xcell 60 is 20 years old). Then I also dislike selling anything that I cannot endorse. That meant I will not sell anything that I don't think it is working right.

I suspect the fuel filter also. In answering the posts it just dawned on me. So I took out the BIG fuel filter designed for 3/16" line and made some adapter to fit on the 1/8" line.

I will test hop and report the result.

Oh and if I do sell, i will sell everything including the electric and gas.

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12-29-2010 09:10 PM  7 years agoPost 9
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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Latest test flight. I put in new fuel filter that is designed for 3/16" line. So I made adapters to go from my 1/8" line to attach the fuel filter. High speed needle at 2 1/2 turn still.

Starts up on the third pull from out of gas the last flight. Idled fine. So I spooled up slowly and no surges. Some resonance during the transition at mid throttle. I see small amount of smoke all the way until engine reached lift off rpm. Everything smoothed out and the lift off was clean. Hover throttle is consistent with no fluctuation. I hovered at various altitude for 15 minutes solid with no problem. Altitude range from 3 feet to 80 feet. I can see minor visible foam noodle movements on the landing skids. No major oscillation. Vertical tail fin has some vibration but nothing major. Fuel has minor foaming after a while.

Landed after 15 minutes and engine behaving properly. Try to check max rpm on GV1 but no reading. I suspect Stator Gater not working right. Is there anyway to test? The red wire broke last flight and I did solder it back.

Checked temperature all through the engine. Highest reading was 292 degrees F at the outside of the exhaust manifold. Muffler is a Century Torpedo (the fat one).

So the next test is to get rid of the fuel filter. If the needle is still at 2 1/2 turn out but the helicopter is flying fine, should I be worried?

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12-29-2010 09:18 PM  7 years agoPost 10
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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Couple of things.

I do answer every e-mail I receive. If you didn't get an answer it means I didn't get the e-mail.. I also frequent a different forum, simply checking in here on occasion. If you place a post in the other forum, I usually can answer within hours, if not minutes.
If your SURE that the carb isn't the issue, whether a bad carb or a leak in the carb gaskets, etc, THEN I would suggest that the CYLINDER head gasket may be the culprit.

I have a Zenoah engine box FULL of carbs! I would be happy to send you one or two or THREE to test if that is your issue, but it's USUALLY not the case.

So to recap and answer the question at hand, 2 1/2 turns out is WAAAY out there and denotes an air leak, or possibly as Raja pointed out, some restriction in the fuel line.

1/8th" ID Tygon is what we use and what comes in the kit. I definitely recommend AGAINST any fuel filter inline to the carb. If you feel a filter is necessary, install it on the return line so it filters the fuel before it gets to the tank.

HTH,

Chris D. Bergen

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12-29-2010 09:21 PM  7 years agoPost 11
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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On the Stator Gator, can you see ANY engine RPM reading while the engine is running? It should fluctuate between 600 and 900 (appx)...

Chris D. Bergen

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12-29-2010 09:30 PM  7 years agoPost 12
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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>>I do answer every e-mail I receive. If you didn't get an answer it means I didn't get the e-mail.. I also frequent a different forum, simply checking in here on occasion. If you place a post in the other forum, I usually can answer within hours, if not minutes.<<

I am sure you do. Unfortunately I am also sure that there are email that got filtered inadvertently by spam filters or just got missed.

>>If your SURE that the carb isn't the issue, whether a bad carb or a leak in the carb gaskets, etc, THEN I would suggest that the CYLINDER head gasket may be the culprit.<<

I am NOT sure that the carb is NOT the problem. As of the last flight the engine is seems to be running smoothly so there is something to do with fuel. I did not take the cylinder head gasket apart since I received the engine back from Al.

>>I have a Zenoah engine box FULL of carbs! I would be happy to send you one or two or THREE to test if that is your issue, but it's USUALLY not the case.<<

That is the reason why I hesitate to jump up and order another carburetor.

>>So to recap and answer the question at hand, 2 1/2 turns out is WAAAY out there and denotes an air leak, or possibly as Raja pointed out, some restriction in the fuel line.<<

That is the reason that prompted my original question here.

>>1/8th" ID Tygon is what we use and what comes in the kit. I definitely recommend AGAINST any fuel filter inline to the carb. If you feel a filter is necessary, install it on the return line so it filters the fuel before it gets to the tank.<<

1/8" tygon is the only size that will fit properly on the carburetor inlet. I don't feel that a filter is necessary it is simply a very old habit that is hard to break. My next test will be to remove the fuel filter.

During the check of the Stator gater wire I noticed some black residue close to the bolt that ground the stator gater wire. That is on the right side of the red coil. I will check if that is not the head gasket leaking.

I will check if the rpm is reading when the engine is running.
Thanks for the help.

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12-29-2010 09:33 PM  7 years agoPost 13
Dave Willis

rrVeteran

Sevierville, TN USA

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Chris
Do you recommend 1/8" on the inside clunk line and on the outside carb supply, return and vent lines also?

Thanks.....Dave

Futaba AMA 6679 IRCHA 675 VHA 11

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12-29-2010 11:15 PM  7 years agoPost 14
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Wait
1. If you have a felt clunk then why do you have a filter? The clunk itself is a filter and you don't need any additional ones.

2. Always fuel from the return line and defuel from the carb inlet line, one way in, one way out. This way if any dirt got into the tank it will never make it past the felt filter.

3. I was going to say send me your helicopter and I'll make it fly, but you're quite far away not so convenient...

4. I would also discourage you from taking the motor apart. You can break something that isn't broke. They residue you see may very well be the exhaust leaking from that Century muffler (they are notorious to leak) and just coming around the cylinder.

5. You need to go to FULL throttle before the gv-1 will register max rpm on the screen. It only does that once you get past 95% throttle. We hover at around 30% throttle, so no readings will be captured even in break collective pumps. You have to reach the stop on the stick pretty much.

6. Your next test is the full power climbout actually. I know you said you hovered fine, and that the high needle is 2.5 turns out. Well the high needle won't come into effect until you start climbing up. You can practically hover on the low needle. I would do a climbout and observe what is happening with the motor. Don't PUNCH it, slowing advance the throttle to full and be ready to auto. In other words, fly it downwind, turn into the wind, face yourself and start to climb. This way if the motor should hickup and die, you're in the best position for landing. When you do climb out, see what happens. Bogs or not. If bogs reduce pitch (if you think its over 10 degrees) and try again and then start to lean the needle and see if things improve.

7. Finally, the high speed needle loses effectiveness after 2 turns out, so 2, 2.5, 3, 4, all the same, max rich. You should really be on average no more than 1 3/4 and no less than 1 and 3/8. Typically, 1 and 5/8 is perfect, with the next popular choice at 1 1/2. You can only optimize it at full power, once the pitch is reasonably set meaning its near its peak where you can start hearing benefits of tuning the high needle.

Good luck, and go see Jim (CNCJunkie) in Hawaii, he may be able to help if you're near - that, or buy me a ticket there

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4220 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3310 flts
Whiplash V1-2 Hanson 300, 1618 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 473 flts

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12-30-2010 01:32 AM  7 years agoPost 15
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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This is going to be a long one guys.
Ok, let's start with a general description.

Second hop today. The engine started up no problem. Transition was smooth. I hovered at varying altitude and it was running very consistent. I can almost hear a gurgle (the start of being rich). So I started to fly some circuits which proves that if the engine runs good the combination will fly well. The Bergen is very stable and control is excellent. Slow circuit in windy/gusty condition is the most difficult but everything is working.

No instant power but it is tolerable.

Flew out the tank completely. Only lasted 20 minutes which told me that I am really running rich.

I purposely ran the tank dry just to see what the reaction of the engine was. Some engine will pick up RPM as the tank runs dry. This engine just die when the fuel is gone. So it is still not getting enough fuel.

Then I noticed the Stator Gator is not working still. So I pulled the black wire and it came right off. So the wire must have been broken.

I decided to try and lean the needle in 1/2 turn to see if I notice any difference.

Third test flight. The engine started in one crank (miracles do happen). It was idling well and when I advanced the throttle it quit right at transition.

Then the engine will not start again. I pulled until I am dripping in sweat (yes those of you the live in the cold area, eat your heart out but it is no fun for me here either. It is 80 degrees F and I am tired and sweaty.) There is nothing more frustrating than an engine that won't fire.

So I installed the starter cone again and put my starter on it. No dice. I got shocked when I pull the spark plug cap. I have fire. I pulled the plug and I see spark when I crank. I injected some fuel into the spark plug hole and nothing happens.

The last time this happened the engine went back to BH Hanson and Al say that the piston ring was stuck in the groove and I will never start it again like that.

So I have to decide if I want to send this back to Al for a second time or just write this off and buy a new stock G231. I need less vibration and power is not a problem.

Ok let's go through Raja has to say:

>>1. If you have a felt clunk then why do you have a filter? The clunk itself is a filter and you don't need any additional ones.<<

It is an old habit. I am changing things so fast just to get this to work I have not settled on anything permanent yet.

>>2. Always fuel from the return line and defuel from the carb inlet line, one way in, one way out. This way if any dirt got into the tank it will never make it past the felt filter.<<

Yes but that is really not the immediate issue. I just want to get this thing flying consistently for a few flights so I can trust it with my camera. Then I can settle on how to fill etc.

>>3. I was going to say send me your helicopter and I'll make it fly, but you're quite far away not so convenient...<<

Since it is quite a large helicopter it is not that convenient. Besides I don't have a problem with the helicopter anymore.

This is how I made sure the tail gear box will not come loose anymore.

>>4. I would also discourage you from taking the motor apart. You can break something that isn't broke. They residue you see may very well be the exhaust leaking from that Century muffler (they are notorious to leak) and just coming around the cylinder.<<

I would discourage me from taking the motor apart also. However I am fairly competent as far as reassembly but why take it apart if I don't have to. Unfortunately I think I may just have to right now. The engine will not start anymore.

The leak was not bad. It was as you said some minor leakage from the muffler.

>>5. You need to go to FULL throttle before the gv-1 will register max rpm on the screen. It only does that once you get past 95% throttle. We hover at around 30% throttle, so no readings will be captured even in break collective pumps. You have to reach the stop on the stick pretty much.<<

The GV 1 is not registering because the Stator Gator was not sending any signal.

>>6. Your next test is the full power climbout actually. I know you said you hovered fine, and that the high needle is 2.5 turns out. Well the high needle won't come into effect until you start climbing up. You can practically hover on the low needle. I would do a climbout and observe what is happening with the motor. Don't PUNCH it, slowing advance the throttle to full and be ready to auto. In other words, fly it downwind, turn into the wind, face yourself and start to climb. This way if the motor should hickup and die, you're in the best position for landing. When you do climb out, see what happens. Bogs or not. If bogs reduce pitch (if you think its over 10 degrees) and try again and then start to lean the needle and see if things improve.<<

No it didn't bog but there isn't much power anyway. No hiccup but I can fly it.

>>7. Finally, the high speed needle loses effectiveness after 2 turns out, so 2, 2.5, 3, 4, all the same, max rich. You should really be on average no more than 1 3/4 and no less than 1 and 3/8. Typically, 1 and 5/8 is perfect, with the next popular choice at 1 1/2. You can only optimize it at full power, once the pitch is reasonably set meaning its near its peak where you can start hearing benefits of tuning the high needle.<<

I noticed that. I pulled the high speed needle and noticed it isn't tapered so you are right about the number of turns.

>>Good luck, and go see Jim (CNCJunkie) in Hawaii, he may be able to help if you're near - that, or buy me a ticket there<<

Honestly given a "normal" engine I can make it work. I am no newbie in this game. I been flying RC since 1968 and have gone through quite a few gasoline and glow fueled engines in my life.

My problem here is that I am lacking parts to swap and baseline to compare on an engine that I am not familiar with.

So since nothing works right now I am pulling the engine and sending it back to Al. If he can fix repair it fine. It doesn't matter about warrantee by now. This engine has never run right and I am so frustrated I am ready to throw it away anyway. I can take it apart and fix it myself but I have no parts so I may as well bite the bullet and send it back.

Secondly I am buying a new G231 stock with no modification. I need to know the baseline before I can compare what is going on.

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12-30-2010 01:41 AM  7 years agoPost 16
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Take a look at the piston on the exhaust side
You stated it was running close to 300 degrees before.

Its possible it got fried and the piston scratched hence why it won't start after your full tank lean run that never richened at the end.

What oil, mixture amount, and gas are you using?

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4220 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3310 flts
Whiplash V1-2 Hanson 300, 1618 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 473 flts

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12-30-2010 04:28 AM  7 years agoPost 17
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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>>You stated it was running close to 300 degrees before.<<

Yes, is that too hot?

>>Its possible it got fried and the piston scratched hence why it won't start after your full tank lean run that never richened at the end.<<

I ordered a G231 PUH from HeliProz so I decided to take the 260 apart to see what the heck is going on. Read below after I answer your mixture question.

>>What oil, mixture amount, and gas are you using?<<

I have two gallons of Klotz racing oil I got from Sig when I was mixing my own glow fuel. Yes glow fuel is hard to get over here so I buy them in a 55 gallon drum. My daughter used to race junior dragster and she used the alcohol also.

I mix it five ounces to the gallon per Bergen recommendation.

I just use the normal gas station 87 octane unleaded gas. It does have 10 percent ethanol in the gas though.

Here is what I found out about the engine:

2 issues I can see and potentially a third.

1) The piston ring is definitely stuck. So I took the ring off very carefully and use 600 to 1500 grit sand paper and removed all the carbon. Now the ring is moving very nicely.

I don't know when it happened but it sure cannot be that long. I sent the engine back to Al and he replaced the cylinder, piston and ring. This is only the second gallon of fuel since then. Today's test flight was actually the longest flight I managed before it quit altogether.

So the problem could be I am using the wrong kind of oil. Or I am running it way too rich.

2) The red coil was dragging on the flywheel and magnet. I found a pretty deep score where it was dragging.

This may very well explained the surging problem I was having and causing me to richen out the needle.

3) The only situation I found on the head gasket is where the crankcase halves join together. There are two black mark on the gasket. On one side the two crank case halves do not meet up perfectly level. I would have thought the gasket could have sealed the unevenness. Regardless, when I rebuilt the engine I put a thin layer of high temperature silicone gasket material right where the crank case halves meet. After that dry it should take care of any leakage problem if there were any.

So before the new engine shows up I am going to put this back in the helicopter and give it another go.

Will be reporting back soon.

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12-30-2010 04:45 AM  7 years agoPost 18
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Oils
Well here is one of your problems it seems. Klotz apparently cannot be run that rich, since your ring got stuck twice already.

Order and use some Penzoil Marine fully Synthetic. That is what Chris Bergen recommends and uses at 5oz per gallon. That oil is thin compared to Amsoil for example, so you need more of it in my opinion than less.

For the red coil, fix it like this:

Take a dollar bill and fold it in half left to right and then in half again so its 4 fold. Curve it around the rotor and make sure the magnets are on the far side and then insert the red coil and push it against the dollar bill while tightening the screws. Then take out the dollar bill and the gap will be perfect. I measured several business cards and then a dollar bill and found that 4 fold dollar which everyone has is the perfect gap as shown in the engine manual specs.

I would assume the head gasket was sealed fine. Now that you took it apart you should add some rtv if you don't have a new gasket to ensure a good seal.

All the best,

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4220 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3310 flts
Whiplash V1-2 Hanson 300, 1618 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 473 flts

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12-30-2010 04:49 AM  7 years agoPost 19
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Almost forgot
As far as temp, if you measure the temp on the carb side and just search up and down the head there for the hottest temp on that side:

210 is the coldest you should ever see in the dead of winter
240 is a good running temp spring and fall
250 to 270 is the most you'd ever want to see on a hot summer day.

Do NOT tolerate anything higher than 270 on hot days. 300 and you're redlining the motor, go a little further I think they seize around 320.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4220 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3310 flts
Whiplash V1-2 Hanson 300, 1618 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 473 flts

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12-30-2010 04:52 AM  7 years agoPost 20
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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What sort of insulator do you have?
Is it a metal one or a stock plastic one?

If metal what gasket(s) is behind it?

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4220 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3310 flts
Whiplash V1-2 Hanson 300, 1618 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 473 flts

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