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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Flybarless without stablization unit
12-22-2010 11:33 PM  9 years ago
Eco8gator

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Palm Beach, FL

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Flybarless sucks with out a gyro. I would 100% prefer to fly a flybared machine over a heli with a flybarless head and no gyros...the heli just doesn't lock very well through maneuvers and the pitch up is not fun to deal with.

Keep in mind that CB's machines are over 12 pounds and have blades between 690-800mm... A 50 sized machine and up will fly ok with out gyros(flight will improve with blades that have the CG moved out farther than normal like fbl edge blades) but its definitively not as usable, for 3D, as a flybared machine...so whats the point?? Seeing random flips and rolls and stuff high up don't count as 3D!...hell I can do quite a bit of silly stuff with a fixed pitch LMH Corona but I'm not bragging about it

Regardless, the only way to learn is to try it out Let us know what ya think.

BTW with systems like the BeastX available at 200 retail there is almost no excuse to not buy some sort of gyro system.

C
PS: Oh and one more thing...how much does a 90 sized Bergan cost again?
Xera Motors
ProBar
Minicopter
Thunder Power
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12-23-2010 12:06 AM  9 years ago
Band1086

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Kennewick, Wa. USA

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One can learn to fly most anything but I assure you, flying flybarless without stabilization is NO FUN.
Agreed, I have tried it, it seemed very unstable, actually scary, like it wanted to fall out of the air. I'm sure I could have gotten used to it had I flown it enough...but definitely NOT for harder 3D flying.
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12-23-2010 12:55 AM  9 years ago
Chuck Bole

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Tulsa Ok. U.S.A.

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I'm fixin to toy with it on a 710 FBL E heli, Not sure wich one i want to throw up in the air tho.. Either a E Stratus or a E Trex 700.
But with the beast-X at 200 bucks it's almost a no brainer to slap one on there..

chuck
Team Synergy Field Representative / Rail Blades / Scorpion Power Systems / HeliLids
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12-23-2010 01:24 AM  9 years ago
gologo

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Sedalia, Mo USA

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Yep, "Cuzz" can tell ya all about it! He and Chris were my inspiration
to try it, and all I can say is I probably won't be putting any stab. on my 600-bladed one. Totally disagree w. the 'NO FUN' to fly 'NOBAR"!
At least in my case, which does not get into hard or maybe even moderate 3D. But VERY smooth, fast forward flight, (no pitchiness),
NO craziness at all, w. all the usual aero. maneuvers.

Just a very sweet flying, stable heli, which BTW, is a stretched Logo500 w. the Mikado FBL head, Bls451 servos, and have ran Mav600G5 W/Cs-Radix standards-Gohbee600s- and now the new Mav. FBL G5 W/Cs.
It has done great w. all those, including autos, especially w. those
latter blades.

But as Ron said, try it both ways, which I very possibly may do w. my
L500 w. 550s.........which I will be converting to FBL very soon also.

Anyway, for my type flying, it has been a big success, and have NO desire to ever go back to FB or stab unit on the 600 ship!
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12-23-2010 05:50 AM  9 years ago
heli-cuzz

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Pittston, Pa. USA

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Where's Heli-cuzz?lol...

NOBAR
Right here buddy
Good to see ya in here gologo.

It always comes down to comparing this to that or versus this to versus that.
Ultimately leading to a retarded internet argument. LoL
Seems to be all the same posters dissing the NOBAR.
Set-up is easy. Helicopter CG and blade choice is very important to those that have experienced pitchiness in FFF.
I have more fun flying with NOBAR than with a flybar.
I have never tried comparing one to the other. That would be the same as comparing apples to oranges. There's no comparison.
Its not for everyone!!!! The best thing for any pilot that CAN fly competently and questions it. Should give it a try.
Definitely not recommending it to any newb or inexperienced pilots.
My NOBAR90 weighs under ten lbs. My NOBAR50 weighs just under eight lbs. My NOBAR450 is so light a stiff wind could fly it.
Final words.... Don't listen to all the naysayers. Try it and see for yourself.
Fury 55 NIB Furion6 CGY750 fbl helicopter-Frenzy CGY750 fbl nitro-Frenzy fbl NOBAR90
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12-23-2010 06:01 AM  9 years ago
heli-cuzz

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Pittston, Pa. USA

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Also like to add that I don't use expo or dual rates.
Everything is set up for full throws on cyclic and my pitch in idle 1 is -12 0 +12
Idle2 is -14 0 +14
Fury 55 NIB Furion6 CGY750 fbl helicopter-Frenzy CGY750 fbl nitro-Frenzy fbl NOBAR90
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12-23-2010 02:23 PM  9 years ago
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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cuzz, what's your typical cyclic pitch? I have been setting mine to appx 8 degrees with VERY fast flips and rolls, even on an 813mm bladed bird.Chris D. Bergen
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12-23-2010 03:47 PM  9 years ago
BarracudaHockey

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Jacksonville FL

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Chris don't you love it when people tell you that you shouldn't be able to do something that you've been doing for ages?

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com
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12-23-2010 03:50 PM  9 years ago
Ronald Thomas

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Gainesville, Fl, USA

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It "works" but not as well as a stabilization system and not on smaller helis is all.Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!
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12-23-2010 04:14 PM  9 years ago
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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I certainly DO!! LOL..Chris D. Bergen
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12-23-2010 05:09 PM  9 years ago
zoot408

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MI.

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tazer
Chris... the video on youtube is your Tazer? What is the max pitch that machine can deliver? What are you running on your collective pitch on the video? You may have covered this... what are your blades of choice for FBL setups?

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12-23-2010 05:39 PM  9 years ago
flymustangs

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Idaho

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Based on Chris' experience I initially flew my Bergen 44 Magnum, including the maiden, without any stabilization. I think it flew just fine. What I've heard some say is they fly well this way, just different. It's kind of hard to define what "different" means unless you try it.

The thing I didn't like most about it was the pitch up in FFF. Granted, I didn't try a bunch of different main blades to try and minimize that.

I also built a Bergen Tazer and outfitted it with a Mikado vbar from the beginning so I could compare the two. They are very similar, just different power plants. I much preferred the Tazer with the vbar, but that's probably because I already had many flights on Logo's with vbar.

Here's a link to a video of it flying without stabilization, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JNzQHHD6BI. The cameraman had a little trouble keeping up, but you get the idea.
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12-23-2010 05:42 PM  9 years ago
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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Pm'd...Chris D. Bergen
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12-23-2010 06:18 PM  9 years ago
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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Seeing random flips and rolls and stuff high up don't count as 3D!...
Apparently I'm not worthy...

Pleae explain what EXACTLY is considered 3D and how YOU came up with THE definition?
PS: Oh and one more thing...how much does a 90 sized Bergan cost again?
If you're interested I'll email you a quote. If it's a jab, well, I understand.

BTW the Gasser does weigh 12-13 Lbs, but the Tazer is only apx 11 Lbs, RTF w/2 ea 6s packs 5000 Mah...

It may be interesting to note that those that are saying to try FBL NOE AREN'T trying to sell you some more electronic equipment.., Those that say it CAN'T be done or that it SUCKS, well take a look at their signatures...

Btw, I have been flying with a Skookum on my Tazer for a bit. I tried some other brand of "FBL" blades that were absolutely horrible to fly NOE. Unstable, pitchy, no fun at all... The Skookum made the heli fly MUCH better. Though I did notice a porpoising in FFF that I relate to the pitchiness of the blades then the Skookum correcting it, causing this nose up/nose down/nose up/nose down action. Putting the EDGE blades back on eliminated the effect.

If you've "tried" FBL NOE and were not impressed, maybe you should try again with a better setup and blades. Just MHO of course...
Chris D. Bergen
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12-23-2010 06:29 PM  9 years ago
DougsRC

rrProfessor

Mass.

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Here is a "Flybarless Trex 450" without any gyro help except the tail. It looks perfectly flyable to me, I'm assuming it is more sensitive on the sticks without any expo, but doable. The video is a little grainy but the music is Funky

Watch at YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWN6kNpndhI
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12-23-2010 07:06 PM  9 years ago
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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The thing I didn't like most about it was the pitch up in FFF. Granted, I didn't try a bunch of different main blades to try and minimize that.
We're talking about no flybar, mechanical or electronic . . . .

What most people seem to ignor or simply not understand is the fact that as the advancing blade increases speed, it produces more lift. The more forward speed, the more the lift increase.

Then gyroscopic precession kicks in . . . . and the nose pitches up.

This is not something I'm making up, it's the laws of physics.

Thinking one can bypass the laws of physics by changing blades is
. . . . . not fruitfull.
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12-23-2010 07:09 PM  9 years ago
heli-cuzz

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Pittston, Pa. USA

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cuzz, what's your typical cyclic pitch? I have been setting mine to appx 8 degrees with VERY fast flips and rolls, even on an 813mm bladed bird.
Hi chris, My cyclic is at 10 degrees on my NOBAR90 with EDGE693fbl mains. My NOBAR90 flips and rolls as quick as a paddled 450 size heli.
My cylic is at 10 degrees on my NOBAR50 with EDGE603fbl mains.
I have no idea what my NOBAR450 with EDGE325fbl mains is at, but assure that its more than enough.
I laugh when I hear money savings when talking about rc helis. In the end, you pay to play in this hobby, let it conquer your heart.
There's no saving money in helis. I don't fly NOBAR to save money.
I fly NOBAR because I can and enjoy doing so.
Thinking one can bypass the laws of physics by changing blades is
. . . . . not fruitfull.
I'll keep my EDGE blades thankyou. I've flown about a dozen sets of blades on NOBAR helis and everything is pitchy with too much bite, but the EDGE fbl mains.
Nothing to do with physics that I don't give two $hit$ about. Its all about how it flies as an end result.
Fury 55 NIB Furion6 CGY750 fbl helicopter-Frenzy CGY750 fbl nitro-Frenzy fbl NOBAR90
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12-23-2010 07:33 PM  9 years ago
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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As I've said many times, there's "theory", then there's REALITY.

Gotta love engineers and all their numbers, gives me goosebumps!

I'm a simple Aircraft Mechanic, maybe I just don't know any better, kinda like the bumblebee who doesn't know that theory says he can't fly, so he just buzzes along happy as can bee...

The problem that you are describing is why helicopters have a limited FFF, it's called Dissymetry of Lift. At the rotor RPMs that we use, the size of our blades, and the forward speeds that we fly, it really isn't a huge problem. Coupled with proper FBL Blades, harder dampening, correct mechanical setup, then we CAN fly w/o electronic stabilization, and enjoy flying our models.

For those interested in further reading, http://www.dynamicflight.com/aerodynamics/dissymmetry/

http://www.pilotoutlook.com/helicop...symmetryof_lift
Chris D. Bergen
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12-23-2010 08:49 PM  9 years ago
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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I'm a simple Aircraft Mechanic, maybe I just don't know any better, kinda like the bumblebee who doesn't know that theory says he can't fly, so he just buzzes along happy as can bee...
I don't know what theory you're talking about. You may want to bone-up on VALID theories.

I have heard that some so-called experts that don't understand the theory have claimed that bumble bees can't fly.

Instead of ignoring the physics, how about spending some more time trying to understand it ?

. . . or are you just an "empirical kind of guy" ?
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12-23-2010 09:05 PM  9 years ago
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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It may be interesting to note that those that are saying to try FBL NOE AREN'T trying to sell you some more electronic equipment.., Those that say it CAN'T be done or that it SUCKS, well take a look at their signatures...
Chris I don't represent nor am I sponsored by any FBL unit company. I tried FBL without electronics and I figured if I was going to spend the extra $$$ to make it fly just ok, then I could spend a little more and make it fly awesome without experimentation.
I also assure you my FBL helis are less complicated electronics wise than any Bergen turbine
Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!
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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Flybarless without stablization unit
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