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12-22-2010 01:24 PM  9 years ago
Topic Vote0Post 1
fastflyer20

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N. Tonawanda, NY

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3d Gasser
Well I am getting ready to take the gasser plunge this Winter. I have read every post I can find, watched youtube videos and called manufacturers of heli's and engines. Yes, I know it will not be equivalent to a nitro or electric, but after burning 36 gallons of nitro in 600's this year, I am looking for an alternative. It will be FBL from the start.

The only heli I can find that has extreme power for 3d is the Helibug T600 running 640 blades and a T700 tail. From what I can see, the Radikal family has yet to impress me with power. The Radikal 3d videos show limited capability IMHO.

Talking to Helibug, they say to run a stock Zenoah 270 or 290.
I can find very little info on the 270 vs the 290.
Any opinions on which engine is best?
Any tips on the Helibug?
Any other advice (gasser related, of course)?

Thanks
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12-22-2010 02:17 PM  9 years ago
Nasscar][

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Delaware

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Hey,

I'm also considering investing in a gasser capable of handling and with standing extreme 3d without falling apart or parts failing.

I have considered:
Helibug Trex 700 conversion

Centry Radical 90 gasser heli

Spectra G

I wish shome who has had experience with all three chime in and provie a detailed review of the above gassers to help us on the best path to invest our money.

In the long run it's not how much you pay for an item but the over all value and return investment you obtain by the performance, reliability and quality that product provides.

If possible I would like to hear from Carey Shurley and others with simular experience.

Nas,
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12-22-2010 02:49 PM  9 years ago
fastflyer20

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N. Tonawanda, NY

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I too was considering the Radikal 30 or the T700 conversion, but from what I can find, the reason the Helibug 600 works so well is that that they can use the same engines as on the 700/90's spinning smaller blades (640's)and slight less weight where as the bigger heli's are still slightly underpowered.
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12-22-2010 03:18 PM  9 years ago
KopterKat

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New Jersey

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Hey Nas,

You know we're friends, but are you kidding? "Best investment" If your looking for an investment find a good 401K. The ROI that your looking for doesn't exist in this hobby Whats perfect for one guy isn't perfect for you. I will however say this, if you buy any of the gassers available on the market today from the top manufactures how can you go wrong.

Oh yeah and get that aggressive 3D paradigm out of your mind with a gaaser. I'm not saying that they don't fly aerobatics, or some 3D. Just not that pitch pumpin, collective crashin stuff that you do.

FlipMode Squad
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12-22-2010 04:27 PM  9 years ago
Carey Shurley

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Orlando, FL - USA

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the note about if you want an investment, try a 401K is pretty good!!!

if you wanna know the 3D capabilities of a 600 sized gas helicopter, tie-wrap 2.5 lbs of weight to the bottom of your 600 nitro frame and run 15% nitro in the motor. That'll give you a pretty good idea what to expect. The same is roughly true with a .90 sized model.

The Spectra and Radikal were both built for 3D pilots, and the Bergen has had success as well.

The Spectra and Bergen models have long track records, you can do some search's and find lots of history and track records on them. The radikals have only been available for a few months now but seem capable.

The helibug conversions work very well and are made from top quality materials, however if you don't already have a model to convert its not going to save you any money to build one. Except for the frames and clutch driver though all the parts are just off the shelf Align components so crash parts are very cheap. If you've converted an align helicopter, it still flies like an align model, just heavier (see previous suggestion)

Unless you intend to just do general sport flying, I don't recommend "stock" motors at all. They all use zenoah motors and in the end they are just mass produced yard implement motors. They are not particularly well balanced and are ported to make their power at lower RPM's than we typically use them for. Talk to the engine tuners (in person or to their reps) to see what they recommend for what you wind up with.

Once you've determined which way you wanna go on this, you'll want some help from somebody who has one just like it, working well. It will save you a LOT of time, money and sorrow. Once you get them all setup, broken in and working correctly they work fine. Don't expect to win the XFC or 3D masters with one though.

I expect there to be additional conversions available as well as at least one new gas helicopter next year
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12-22-2010 05:53 PM  9 years ago
kogibankole

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albuquerque/ibadan

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Run a short pipe
If you are looking to do hard 3D with no vibes consider running hansons short pipe with the stock g23, on 690's with the helibug 17T pinion. It pulls like a bastard.
if im not blade bogging youll find me pack puffing
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12-22-2010 08:34 PM  9 years ago
rbort

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Franklin, MA - USA

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Wait a minute...
Don't expect to win the XFC or 3D masters with one though.
I did win the OHB autorotation contest with it, beating a dozen 90 size trex 700 nitros and the likes which could hang all day long compared to what I was using. Its not impossible to do, but definately harder and you're at a handicap with a gasser compared to the nitro boys.

-=>Raja.
MA 1005 Hanson 2703D, 4300 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3422 flts
Whiplash V1-2 Hanson 300, 1890 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 800 flts
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12-22-2010 09:06 PM  9 years ago
Carey Shurley

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Orlando, FL - USA

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congratulations!!

the thread originator asked about hard 3D though, thats quite a bit different.
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12-22-2010 10:11 PM  9 years ago
KopterKat

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New Jersey

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I did win the OHB autorotation contest with it, beating a dozen 90 size trex 700 nitros and the likes which could hang all day long compared to what I was using. Its not impossible to do, but definately harder and you're at a handicap with a gasser compared to the nitro boys.

-=>Raja.
Raja,

Don't get it twisted. Our machines are very capable fliers but by no means can you flog these things around at over 14lbs. I know what your saying but auto rotation and 3D flying as we know it are very different

FlipMode Squad
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12-22-2010 11:08 PM  9 years ago
avi8er

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Billings, MT

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It will be FBL from the start.
I would suggest using a flybar for the first flights. Most if not all models have both flybarfull and FBL heads available. If you purchase a deticated FBL kit, I would borrow a flybared head for the first few flights to get the motor broken in and everything setup. A new and/or poorly tuned/setup gasser can shake the brains out of any FBL unit. When you get things smooth out and dialed into the ballpark, it's FBL time. Now that FBL is getting popular, I'm sure there are a lot of flybar heads laying around collecting dust.

-Chris Lund
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12-22-2010 11:17 PM  9 years ago
Gearhead

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Vt

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""The only heli I can find that has extreme power for 3d is the Helibug T600 running 640 blades and a T700 tail. From what I can see, the Radikal family has yet to impress me with power""

if it's the Radical you want but you wanted more power than what was in the Radikal clips then buy the Radikal less Engine, then buy the Engine you want, isn't the Radikal the lightest Gasser on the market ??
Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz
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12-23-2010 02:09 AM  9 years ago
fastflyer20

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N. Tonawanda, NY

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I appreciate the input, lots of good information.

I already have an old T600 kicking around with a few FB heads to select from to get everything sorted out. And a FBL head waiting for a new home.

More input on the engines would be great, there are some very different opinions here. I talked to Toxic Al and he recommends the modified 231 due the big bores vibrating too much over 12,500 rpm. Helibug recommends the stock 270 or 290. What are the advantages and disadvantaged of each one?
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12-23-2010 02:24 AM  9 years ago
Carey Shurley

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Orlando, FL - USA

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I'm running the HB600 conversion using the vx231rs motor and a 6.76 gear ratio. in idle up, the motors turning close to 15K RPMs and I've had it as high as about 16.6K RPM's. Its still pretty smooth at those rpms'

I tried running an out of the box G240, which is the smoothest of the stock bunch and it vibrated the model pretty badly starting at about 12K RPM's.
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12-23-2010 02:58 AM  9 years ago
fastflyer20

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N. Tonawanda, NY

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Thanks
WOW 16,600 is over 2400 HS!
At 15,000 RPM's, HS is 2218, what blades are you running?
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12-23-2010 04:02 AM  9 years ago
kanenar

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Korea

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How about this one!
He used stock engine ,690 blades,7.5 gear ratio,2000 HS.........

Watch at YouTube

And this

Watch at YouTube

Never saw 2400 HS movie section???
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12-23-2010 04:54 AM  9 years ago
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Wow
2400 head speed? Is that thing about ready to explode? Man that sounds scary to me, trust me, you never want to see a heli explode...!

Realisticly though, sounds too fast and at those speeds how sustainable is that head speed? Any videos out there of this?

-=>Raja.
MA 1005 Hanson 2703D, 4300 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3422 flts
Whiplash V1-2 Hanson 300, 1890 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 800 flts
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01-23-2011 12:47 AM  9 years ago
mrford

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elmwood park nj usa

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stock motors will be more reliable. More c c s will give more hp. I e mailed toxic from H B forum thought a balance and a light tuning mite be nice he got back to me and said 175$ on a slightly used engine. My'n is a box stock zen R C 27 cc very reliable seams to have plenty of power. For 3d i would go with the 29 maybe balance and light tune don't go nuts with tuning you will lose reliability and ease of starting just food for thought. Displacement makes reliable hp .
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01-23-2011 02:05 AM  9 years ago
oldfart

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Vancouver, Canada

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Congratulations on your autorotation win, Raja. But it has absolutely no significance to the OP's question relating to extreme 3D. I am confused why you keep bringing up your win in such discussions of extreme 3D flying with a gasser? Are you not aware of the differences?

What is far more significant to smack 3D, is of course power to weight, rotor rpm and disc loading.

Carey's analogy of strapping 2.5 lbs to a T600 is a relatively good one. Of course that will not take into account the better disc loading you would get using a set of 640mm blades compared to 600's or 610's on the T600 or the extra torque of a G231 gasoline engine, compared to that of an OS50 Hyper.

And comparing a T600 conversion using a tuned G231 to a Radikal G20 using a G20 engine is also not a good one.

Here, comparing apples to apples, would be better served by fitting the Radikal G20 with the same engine and using the same 640mm blades.

Here you would have the same power and same size of rotor disc, so the relative disc loading would be directly related to what the all up weight, with the same amount of fuel, say to fly for 10 minutes, would come out to.

In both cases the weight would be far less then 14 lbs....probably between 9 and 9 1/2 lbs.

The problem is the power required to turn a 640mm blade head at say 2200. That takes a LOT more power then it does at 1700....about 60% more at the same pitch settings!!!

Of course you can drop the amount of pitch range you want to use, but then you would loose some "pop".

Here you are dealing with helicopter dynamics, which is all based on one basic fact of physics - energy can neither be created or destroyed...only changed.

So all things being equal, in order to maneuver a particular weight in free space, if you want to increase one thing you will have to give up another.

In other words, if you have a certain amount of HP/Torque available, to be used through a particular sized rotor, then you can turn that rotor at a certain speed with a lot of pitch or at a faster speed with less pitch - you cannot have both.

Here you are dealing with a number of different, but related parameters, so if you change one, it will effect what you can or will have to do with the others.

As for these high head speeds on this size/weight of heli and the resultant G-forces, some heads may be able to take it, others may not. Also at these rotor speeds when used in such helis, the wear factor goes up exponentially. From a safety perspective, that is always a consideration.
Phil
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01-23-2011 02:40 AM  9 years ago
oldfart

rrProfessor

Vancouver, Canada

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Also at these rotor speeds when used in such helis, the wear factor goes up exponentially.
I would also like to mention here relative to that statement, that if someone is flying a particular heli in hard 3D using a 2000 rpm head speed for all of his flights, the components of his heli are being stressed far more then if he flew more sedate aerobatics at a 1600 rotor speed.

If someone has two of the identical helis, and flies every flight at a 1600 head speed, and 1/2 of each flight is to climb to altitude and shoot autos with one, while the other is used to do hard 3D with a 2000 rotor speed for the full duration of the flight, he would soon discover that the one flown in hard 3D will wear every power associated component at a surprisingly faster rate then he would find on his softly flown heli.

Doing standard loops, rolls, flips, fast forward flight, fast backward flight, inverted flight and such do not really put much stress on any of the helicopters components. What does is high rotor speeds, fast aceleration and deceleration type of maneuvers, including those using a lot of different tail rotor moves.

Much like a car. If the Little Ole' Lady from Pasedena only ran her car on the autobaun, cruising well below her engines red line, at 120 mph, she would not wear her car out very fast. On the other hand, if she took the same car and ran it hard through the gears every day at the drag races or racing it around and Indy or Grande Prix track, as fast as she could every day, there would be a lot more wear on it after 20,000 miles.
Phil
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01-23-2011 02:49 AM  9 years ago
oldfart

rrProfessor

Vancouver, Canada

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The problem is the power required to turn a 640mm blade head at say 2200. That takes a LOT more power then it does at 1700....about 60% more at the same pitch settings!!!
Relative to this, here is a great thread showing the increases in power requirements. as the rotor speeds are increased. These ar very similar to testing I did many years ago when testing various rotor blades at different head speeds etc. The advantage of using electric power is that it is much easier to measure watts then hp.

https://rc.runryder.com/t627807p1/
Phil
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