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12-20-2010 01:54 PM  9 years ago
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Bogdan

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Netherlands

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Build question
My N5 kit arrived today. To my surprise many components are already assembled, e.g tail or head. Did you disassemble and assemble back your parts for safety reasons?

Thanks,
Bogdan
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12-20-2010 01:56 PM  9 years ago
Darren Lee

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Woodstock, GA

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Yes, absolutely.Team Synergy / Rail Blades / Morgan Fuel
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12-20-2010 03:39 PM  9 years ago
Chuckie

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Crofton Maryland

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If you decide to unscrew any of the balls you must use heat, small torch, to loosen the incredibly hard locktite used. If not they can break off at the threads. Been there done that.Please stand by for faster service!
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12-20-2010 07:26 PM  9 years ago
synergy5

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yeah i got court on the bell mixer arms snapped a ball of had to get a new one i found it was the head had most of the locktite on it.thunder tiger g4 nitro,thunder tiger g4 e720
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12-20-2010 07:42 PM  9 years ago
00boto

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Kennesaw, Ga

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All new kits should have the balls only partially threaded with zero loctite. Always carefully go through the assemblies and loctite accordingly.

Thanks,

Matt
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12-20-2010 10:32 PM  9 years ago
Bogdan

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Netherlands

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So far I only had time to go through the first two pages of the manual and the main pulley assembly.

I guess that the only purpose of the having the parts pre-assembled is to show to the new owner how the parts should fit together.

I choose N5 because it seems an extremely robust kit and the frames are affordable. I cannot anticipate what will break during the first crash. The quality of parts seems to be very high. I inspected briefly the head. Indeed most metal parts are loose. However I will not apply excessive torque (I had bad experience with the N600).

Not sure yet how to get the right frame alignment as the bottom of the frames has two levels: one below the engine and one below the fuel tank.

Many thanks for the tips. Please contribute with more if you think is relevant.

Thanks!
Bogdan
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12-21-2010 12:41 PM  9 years ago
synergy5

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sydney aus

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the good thing about it being together when u get it is there will be no missing parts not good when your half way through building and something is missing.thunder tiger g4 nitro,thunder tiger g4 e720
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12-22-2010 05:20 PM  9 years ago
Bogdan

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Well…. yesterday I built up the body of the helicopter. It looks very nice. Aligning the frames went well (I think). This was mostly due to the precision in cutting the frame material.

Dismounting the tail section was a bit challenging. I cannot prove, but some of the parts were fixed with locktide. Some parts could not be removed at all so I let them as received. I refer here to the tail rotor hub to tail output shaft. Removing set screw 364 it appears that the initial positioning of these parts was ok so I applied locktide and put the set screw back. Also set screws 364 on the tail pulley could not be removed. I almost stripped the Allen key in them. So I let them in place. Sorry to say, this situation is not so nice.

This brings me to the next stage the rotor head. Please, understand that I do not want to be critical. I only want to get some feedback. Dismounting the head parts was extra work and went well until the spindle section. There, only one of the screws was removable. The other one is stuck. I almost get a scratch on the spindle and still it was not possible to remove the second screw. So I let it as received. Also all ball bearings were well fixed into the metal blade holders so I had to let them as received. Again, this is not very pleasant. All balls were easily removable so that was no problem.

Mounting back the head assembly, I realized that on rotating the blade grips by 135deg one of the sides of the head block touches slightly the blade arm. See the image below to get an impression (the angle is 45 deg but I hope you understand). Rotating the spindle inside the head block did not change the situation, this means that the spindle is OK. So I might have a very small fabrication misalignment.

Should I expect wobbling of the head?

Sorry to bring it up.

Thanks!!!!

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12-23-2010 11:14 PM  9 years ago
00boto

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Kennesaw, Ga

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Bogdan,

If the hex is rounding out on those set screws, I would wait until you have to service the tail and use a standard 1/16 hex driver to remove them (1/16 = 1.58mm) Before you remove them, use the tip of a soldering iron to heat the set screw. This will help break the loctite.

The bolts in the spindle are most likely secured with loctite, this is normal operation with about every helicopter. When you try to break the spindle bolt free, one will break free and the other will stay secure. I usually just leave the one that didn't break free in place unless I am replacing the spindle. If you absolutely have to break the other one free, you will probably have to use a pair of vise grips to get a grip on the spindle.

The bearings in the grips are a light press fit which can be removed by lightly heating the grips. This is by design so that your rotor head does not have slop in the blade grips due to poor bearing fit. Many things that are not pleasant are a necessary evil if you want a precision flying machine. There are plenty of helicopters out there that assemble very easily but you will always sacrifice one or more flying characteristic if machining tolerances are not tight.

The blade grip arm slightly touching the head could be due to damper compression. I like to run zero compression which is just enough shim in the rotor blade grip and between the head block and blade grip to take up the slack. Stock from the factory the dampers are compressed by about 1-1.5mm... take the compression out by running a .5mm or .75mm shim inside of the blade grip (the shim between thrust and radial) If you do this you should be able to run between 1800 - 2150 head speed with no wobbles.

Make sure you read through all of the tips on my site, there are some important build tips that can save you some irritation. http://mattbotos.com/?p=563

Hope that helps!

Matt
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01-04-2011 10:34 PM  9 years ago
Bogdan

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Netherlands

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So here it is!
Below are the pics of this baby.

Some remarks first:

- building this heli took me more time than expected. It felt like the build time was much longer than for the Vibe 50. That was mostly because the parts were preassembled.

- my concern is still over the head build tolerance. Thank you Matt for tacking time for replying to my post! I do not understand how the compression of the dampers can result in changing the spindle position with respect to the vertical axis of the heli. The dampers can be compressed from the sides and that is a rotational symmetric compression. Right? Adding shims would change the compressions of the dampers, but that would only make the dampers more rigid. So far, the only thing I did was to remove the spindle and add grease. That will eventually lubricate the bearings at the first flight. As with many components, it was not possible to remove the dampers from the head block. If the heli will have low frequency vibrations at the maiden flight I will have to remove the dampers anyway. It is also possible that somehow the axe of dampers is not the same as the axis of the spindle. At that point I will change also change the 106-803 8x1mm washer inside the blade grips. Anything is possible at the first flight.

- Main shaft pinch collar: I am not comfortable with the one made of aluminum. On Vibe 50 the collar is made of steal and is fixed by pinching and with tap screw: fail safe. I do not know what kind of aluminum was used in manufacturing the pinch collar for Synergy N5. It is well known that poor aluminum alloys have low yield strength values so why making a pinch collar from aluminum? The closest suitable collar I found was from a 600N that I crashed-hard last summer. It has two pinch screws on it.

- Elevator set screw: Indeed the screw introduces a rotational shift of the elevator arm. It is not easy to remove this shift. Best solution was to use a similar set screw from elsewhere. So if you have this problem than you will have to find a proper screw. I had such problem with the Vibe 50 too. There, the design was different there are two set screws and no flat (as far as I remember). Sooner or latter both designs will introduce rotational shift of the elevator arm (away from 90deg). In my opinion there is room for innovation here.

- Governor sensor mount: this is very nice for me!!! It is perfect for the new Futaba 701.

- Clutch liner installation: in my case that was factory glued. Hope to hold.

- Other parts seem ok to me.

- Carbon tail pushrod: it looks and fills much nicer than the classic steel wire. Not sure how to deal with the adjusting the distance between the links when adjusting the belt tension.

- Plastic links: the ball links have to be adjusted to move free around the balls. My solution was to take one of the few spare balls and make a cut with a dremel. Fix the ball in drilling machine and run it 10 to 20 seconds per link. If you do this then you should be cautions not to damage the links.

- Blades and paddles are made of very soft plastic. I would simply remove them from the kit to increase the overall quality.

It is always nice to see the heli just before the first flight when everything is clean and shiny.

Heli electrical setup:
Cyclic servos: Futaba BLS253 X 3
Rudder servo: BLS251
Throttle servo: Hitec 5065mg (what I had at hand)
Gyro & governor: Futaba 701
Receiver: AR7000
Voltage regulator: Gryphon & battery 2s1 1900mAh

Blades: align 600 3D super pro 2 (some of the cheapest on carbon fiber section)
Tail blades: MAH 92mm (blades still going strong after a few years)
Paddles: align carbon (what I have form the crash of the 600N)

Power: OS 55 & outrage muffler

Weight: 3830g dry

Thanks!
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01-05-2011 02:22 AM  9 years ago
flyboy907

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woodstock, ga

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Main shaft pinch collar: I am not comfortable with the one made of aluminum. On Vibe 50 the collar is made of steal and is fixed by pinching and with tap screw: fail safe. I do not know what kind of aluminum was used in manufacturing the pinch collar for Synergy N5. It is well known that poor aluminum alloys have low yield strength values so why making a pinch collar from aluminum? The closest suitable collar I found was from a 600N that I crashed-hard last summer. It has two pinch screws on it.
In all of Mikado's machines, some that are pushing up to 6hp or more, all have aluminum pinch collars without fail. I don't think this should be a concern. Matt put over 1000 flights on the original prototype with no problems in this area. I have also put in many flight and it has worked flawlessly, so put your mind at ease on that.
Blades: align 600 3D super pro 2 (some of the cheapest on carbon fiber section)
If this is what you got then thats cool but when budget allows it grab some Radix SB's or any other higher end 125g blades.
I say this because I don't want your first flight to be crappy, I tried these blades twice and had horrible experience with tracking, near impossible to get it right and the flying characteristics were very poor.
Your components look great, I recently switched to Futaba servos and they are awesome.

Good luck and let us know how your flight goes!!!!
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01-10-2011 11:19 PM  9 years ago
Bogdan

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Netherlands

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Tail problem!!!!!!

So, here is the first flight report.

What was new for me: the heli (never had one before), the gyro (never had one before) and the engine (never had os55 before).

My first concern was the low frequency vibrations due to the head. So far I can say that I did not noticed any strange vibrations due to the head while hovering. There were body and skid vibrations while spooling up, but that might have to do with the resonances of the helicopter and not necessary with a misaligned component.

However, I have problems with the tail. The tail is very unpredictable, that is the best word. It feels that there are response delays due to the excessive friction in the linkages. As I mentioned earlier, the stock plastic links have an inner size much smaller than the ball links. Despite the fact that I tried to resize the links with the drilling machine and a modified ball link, I still have friction left.

So I have two questions:
1) Did anybody managed to fly the helicopter without sizing the ball links of the tail control rods?
2) What are the normal gain values for GY701 on heading lock mode?

The gain values I used so far are 70 (as indicated in the gyro manual) and 50 as seen in one of Bobby Watts promotion video.

I could not find any report regarding optimum gain values for N5. So if you use a GY701 please share your gain values. In this way I can rule out the gyro. Note that I have also adjusted the belt tension.

I am still under the impression that this could be the best training nitro helicopter.

Thanks!
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01-10-2011 11:59 PM  9 years ago
carcrasher

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east coast

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What HS are you running? Finish breaking in the engine and get it tuned correctly. Once you do that the gyro will work better. Are you running the gov in the 701?Try oiling the tail rod guides and tail output shaft.
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01-11-2011 09:07 AM  9 years ago
Bogdan

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Netherlands

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Tail problem; see above for some more details

I am not sure of the head speed. The engine settings are:
-- The throttle curve in normal mode is linear with an idle at 6.5% and top at 100%.
-- Factory settings for the carburetor: 2 turns on middle range needle and two turns on high end needle; outside temperature 5deg on Celsius scale.
-- I do not use a governor at this moment.

The tail blades I use are 92mm.

My questions are still pending:
A) Is there anybody that uses that uses the links on the tail rods as received from the factory, without any sizing?
B) What gain values do you use for the GY701 at what head speed and what tail blades size?

Thanks!
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01-11-2011 09:16 AM  9 years ago
synergy5

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sydney aus

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i didnt resize any of my links dont thing there is any need to if your still on 2 turns out on the motor u might be getting the vibe because the engine isnt tuned properly yet tune it out and then see what its like.thunder tiger g4 nitro,thunder tiger g4 e720
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01-11-2011 11:52 AM  9 years ago
Chuckie

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Crofton Maryland

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If you want the heli to fly the best you need to size match the links. You also need to adjust the links on the slider (that connect to the balls on the tail grips). If you take the link off the ball at the servo and move the rod by hand, with all control parts connected, it should move freely. As you noticed, on the tail the tight links will make it appear to stick then jump when giving rudder input. I also don't think the friction load on the tail servo is good and will shorten the life of the servo motor, or at a minimum waste power and heat up the servo. I loosen the links so I can easily turn the control rod with my fingers or if one side of the rod is disconnected the rod will not stay suspended if you angle up the end and let it go. Keep on using your modified spare ball to open each link. After this you'll never have to worry about the links.

Definitely tack the heli to find the headspeed, find someone with a sky tack or buy one for your self. With a linear throttle curve and rich motor settings your headspeed is ok but once you lean out the motor the linear throttle curve (with 100% at full throttle) the HS will go up too much (I assume you also have a linear pitch curve with zero pitch at mid stick). I use my tack all the time as well as my other club members, invaluable tool for sure!!
Please stand by for faster service!
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01-11-2011 05:30 PM  9 years ago
Bogdan

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Netherlands

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Thank you Chuckie and Synergy5 for the input. Your reactions are different, but it does not matter. At this time I already resized the all links of the helicopter so that each move free around the balls. Now I do not expect to see any bad reactions of the tail. Unfortunately I had to adapt/ sacrifice the tool for removing the ball links.

I will open another post on using the governor of GY701 while the engine is at its first tanks.

Thanks!
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01-17-2011 05:33 PM  9 years ago
Bogdan

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Netherlands

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Here is the update.

Step 1) resize ball links from the tail push rod
Result 1) somewhat better tail control; still large difference in turning the helicopter to the right compared to the left

Step 2) resize the links connected to the pitch slider
Result 2) perfect control

Below is the modifed ball I used. (with a Dremel tool)

Finally the heli is predictable. I can say that this helicopter has a lot to offer.

I have the filing that the cooling of the N5 is very efficient. So far I am still breaking-in the engine, yet the engine cools down much faster (to the touch) compared to other machines I had before. This might be due to the large open area of the engine.

I would say that this design could be scaled up to a 90 using the same combination of frame, motor center block and fan shroud.

N5 is a great heli.
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