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HomeScale✈️AircraftScale HeliScale Helicopter Main Discussion Docs  Blue Thunder Down-Under - Smartmodel 700 BlueThunder with fenestron
07-27-2012 01:58 PM  8 years ago
Whitefang

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Memphis, TN - USA

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Hi Jim,
I want to clarify what you are attempting to do; are you wanting via direct ESC programming, to bias the ESC to operate the tail motor at a faster RPM when it is being given midrange radio commands, in order to get more tail authority at hover? - If you are, then that might work if the ECS can support a radical enough program curve. You would be doing the exact same thing as I am with the JR9303H radio, only doing it in the ECS. – Is that what you are asking me?

I don’t know myself if it is possible, but we run a lot of Castle Creations ESC stuff, and I have a good friend who does all of my ESC programming (he enjoys that sort of thing) and I will forward this question to him and see if he can answer it for us.

I know the JR9303H will fly a TF Blue Thunder and it cost much less than the DX18. I know they are different systems, but the JR radio was very easy to learn (I’m living proof of that) and I have yet to reach the limits of what I have asked it to do for me. You might want to consider a JR if the ECS option fails.

I will be on vacation next week, so it may take awhile to get you a response.

Hang in there, and have a good one,
Terry
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07-29-2012 02:01 PM  8 years ago
heliadictaholic

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Hobart, Tasmania - Australia

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G'day Terry,
I did a test run of the fenestron on Castle Creations ICE75 ESC. Firstly I programmed slow spool up in the esc program, and tested in throttle channel. Then I tried it in the AUX2 channel with the servo endpoint setting reduced to about 50% (this % just to test) - then I switched on. The tail motor spooled up slowly but when it reached what was probably where I set the AUX2 servo endpoint, the motor started to "carry on" - strange sound. So it looks like setting the servo throw endpoint lower, for AUX2 will not work with ESC.

The only option with the DX7 radio, is either run the motor flat out on AUX2 or run with a "Y" lead with throttle curve at about 80%-85% which works. I will start looking at new radio options....

By the way, slow spool up sounds really nice.....

Jim
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08-09-2012 09:47 AM  8 years ago
heliadictaholic

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Hobart, Tasmania - Australia

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G'day guys,
While sorting out a vibration with my fenestron drive system, I removed the side cover from the fenestron (Right Hand Side of heli) and found the small nylock nut was not in contact with the brass/bronze pitch slider fitting. Should this nylock nut be secured against the brass/bronze fitting? I expect it should.... I have been trying to contact TFModel, but can not access their site - anyone else having problems contacting them?

Also I think there should be some sort of lubrication on the slider (for want of better words) "push pins" that ride in the brass/bronze fitting?.....
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08-10-2012 02:52 AM  8 years ago
bell222

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Australia

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there site is down at the moment for maintenence
you can still contact them by email
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08-23-2012 04:10 AM  8 years ago
heliadictaholic

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Hobart, Tasmania - Australia

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G'day guys,

I had a problem with my fenestron. It came apart internally - luckily, it was on the work bench.... During disassembly of the fenestron 3 issues were revealed....

One of the bearings is not retained and can drop out. Have a look at the photo. A bit blurrrred - sorry

When I dismantled the pitch slider rod and blades, the small bearing came out with the shaft. You can see this bearing if you remove your plastic cover over the blade mounting, The cover screws are taped into the aluminium hub so no problems removing them - not like some plastics which do not like having screws removed too often.

When I re-assembled the slider shaft, I used my spring loaded centre mark device (set on low pressure) and secured the bearing by placing some centre pop marks in the aluminium close to the bearing recess. You could also fit a tiny screw so that the screw head retains the outer ring of the bearing. I didn't think of this until I had already used the centre pop tool You could possibly use loctite - but as things are so small, there is a risk of locking up the bearing if you are not careful.

One other thing to note is that the aluminium blade mounting hub is attached to the sprocket pulley shaft by a left hand thread. This is what came loose on my fenestron. I think this is because I rotated the fan hub by hand with the motor and belt installed. This is a big NO-NO. My own stupid fault... Do not rotate the fan by hand because you run the risk of the thing coming apart. Also, running the fan in reverse under power can also unscrew the components, so take care.....

Also, I have included the exploded view of the fenestron which TFModel kindly supplied. Not sure how to insert a PDF so it is here: https://rc.runryder.com/gallery/71075/fenestron_exp.pdf

The third thing I found is that the part of the pitch slider which holds the blade actuator pins, is not assembled in accordance with the exploded drawing. I have 2 fenestrons and both have been assembled the same way. TFModel may have addressed this issue in newer fenestrons...

The arrangement in the exploded drawing is best - parts mate together perfectly when compared to the way they were actually assembled. Problem is, If it is assembled as shown in the drawing, the space for the blade actuators is too small.... I am reassembling my mechanism with the addition of a shim washer to ensure the blade actuator pins fit perfectly.

One other issue I am having is with the belt tension. The belt needs to be tight as it will jump teeth. I have also proven that. Problem is when the belt is tight, the tension flexes the motor mount causing the belt to ride up the side flange of the motor sprocket..... I am adding another part to the motor mount so that the mount can not flex. The modification will be similar to any of the pod and boom helis we have where the tail shaft is supported on both sides of the tail sprocket (or gear if you run a torque tube)

There are a few more photos below for reference.

Yea sure, there are going to be some that have had no problems at all - that is good - but I have had some issues and in my opinion, worth pointing out.

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09-26-2012 05:42 PM  8 years ago
Smart Model

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China/HK

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I am Kin back here now ! you can let me know what information you need !Kin
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09-26-2012 11:58 PM  8 years ago
heliadictaholic

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Hobart, Tasmania - Australia

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Kin....

Have you been on a long holiday? I have sent many emails to you but you did not reply?

How was your "holiday"?
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09-27-2012 11:59 PM  8 years ago
tintmaster

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Wichita, Ks. U.S.A.

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Blue Thunder
Wow! This is 1 beautiful heli! Awesome job!!!!
Just call me Farmer Brown. 'Cause I know how to really plant 'em
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01-20-2013 05:43 PM  8 years ago
love for scale

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Omaha, Nebraska U.S.A.

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Just a question... I don't have this model, but I followed this post. What if a person wants to use gov mode on an esc for the main rotors, couldn't a seperate esc for the tail be assigned to AUX 3 or 4 on the 9303, and use a slider for output of the tail motor? Keeping it at a constant rpm? Seperate from main esc and motor? Greg
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01-20-2013 10:29 PM  8 years ago
heliadictaholic

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Hobart, Tasmania - Australia

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G'day Greg - the kit is supplied with a speed controller for the fenestron and a separate ESC is required for the main motor. I originally set up my BT with a DX7 where I used a "Y" lead from the receiver to both ESC's.

Since then, I upgraded my DX7 to a DX18. With the DX18 and I assume many other radios, it is possible to run 2 separate throttle curves running a master and slave setup. With my 2 throttle curves, I have also set up an offset between the master and slave ESC's. This offset is adjustable on a slider on the TX. So it is possible to manipulate both ESC's which works great.

On another topic - I have been looking for someone to make a BT/Gazelle scale rotor head. Some of the prices were coming in at around the $3000 mark... Forget that.... Anyway I modified the hub part of the head - converted from 1 piece hub to 13 separate parts and found a company that could produce the head for around $1000 for 1 head. This is still quite high and I don't think there would be enough of a market to "mass produce"
So far I have had the hub, hub side plates and 3 grips made. These parts cost $429. I will order more parts soon...

Here is a picture of the CNC parts so far.

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01-21-2013 02:49 AM  8 years ago
love for scale

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Omaha, Nebraska U.S.A.

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I know about the seperate esc, but what about with the 9303? And running the main rotor esc in gov mode? I uses set rpm mode where no throttle curves are used, hoiw would I slave that to the tail esc?
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01-21-2013 02:52 AM  8 years ago
heliadictaholic

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Hobart, Tasmania - Australia

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Maybe someone else could jump in here. I only have Spektrum gear...
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04-02-2013 11:07 AM  8 years ago
heliadictaholic

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Hobart, Tasmania - Australia

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CNC Gazelle/Blue Thunder rotor head
G'day guys,
Finally, I have all CNC parts for my Blue Thunder CNC head.... The cost is a bit high but I think the result is worth it. For example, the blade grips cost $64 each, grip brackets $46 each...
I had the complicated parts made in China and I made the simple parts on my lathe and mill.
The feathering shafts are cut down Trex700 feathering shafts.
I bought the parts a few at a time, this way, it is not so much a hit on the back pocket....

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04-02-2013 12:43 PM  8 years ago
JRAY

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LaGrange, Georgia, USA

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Wow! Looks awesome!I am serious.....and don't call me Shirley.
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05-11-2013 09:09 AM  7 years ago
heliadictaholic

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Hobart, Tasmania - Australia

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G'day guys,

Scale head is now painted.....

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05-11-2013 06:49 PM  7 years ago
JRAY

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LaGrange, Georgia, USA

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Very nice. I'm about to break down and buy one of these.I am serious.....and don't call me Shirley.
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10-20-2014 03:42 AM  6 years ago
heliadictaholic

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Hobart, Tasmania - Australia

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Fenestron upgrade
G’day guys,

You may have read on RunRyder, Joel’s posts about his testing of my new design fenestron blade hub, on his TFModel Gazelle. The new fenestron design has 2 normal radial ball races on each blade similar to the original TFM fenestron, but also includes a thrust race on each blade. The addition of the thrust race has made blade actuation much easier to achieve. The blade profile has also been changed. The blades have been machined from aluminium in an attempt to eliminate any possible blade distortion at high RPM. The blade mounting disc has been redesigned to accept the new bearing arrangement.

Joel tested the new blade design mounted on the stock TFModel fenestron blade hub. He achieved better air flow performance, but blade actuation was not good. While the aluminium blades are quite light in weight, they are about twice the weight of the plastic original – blade actuation in this case was not possible at high RPM.

Testing of the thrust race hub with the aluminium blades was successful. Joel has done several tests and he is happy with the result.
You may be aware that having parts CNC machined is not a cheap process – the more of each part machined in any machining run, the cheaper each part would be.

The main reason for this post is to see if there are any other TFModel fenestron owners who are having problems with the holding ability of the heli tail. I need to order parts for another fenestron and thought I would post here to see if there is any interest from any other TFM fenestron owners in replacing their fenestron with the new thrust race aluminium version. As I said CNC machining is not cheap so the more parts I order, the cheaper the fan would be.

So If anyone is interested in getting a price – please let me know so I can get a bulk price together. I understand TFModel has partially closed down – is this correct? If they are still in operation, maybe they might be interested in contacting me and take on the new design themselves. I am happy to hand over to TFM, my 3D models. I really don’t have time to make fans as a business – I just need to put together another fan and thought we could help each other to keep the cost down…. Anyway, there are some photos of my Gazelle fenestron below.

Also there is another part of the TFModel fenestron that I was concerned about and that is the mount for the blade actuator. I was not happy with the tiny screws into plastic so I had an aluminium version made. The new actuator mount is pictured as well.

As a guide, to machine enough parts to make 3 fans, the cost is somewhere between $500 and $600 “per fan” – this includes 9 blades, 9 blade/bearing mounts, 1 main hub and 1 actuator mount – all aluminium. Depending on bearing costs they could be included in that cost – I need to confirm this…

There is also some hole tapping M1.5, M2 & M3 – this, I do myself.
There is also 1 “LEFT HAND THREAD” I also do this thread myself – this is to attach the belt sprocket fitting to the blade hub.

Regards,

Jim

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11-21-2014 08:02 PM  6 years ago
JRAY

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LaGrange, Georgia, USA

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So did they quit producing it? I don't see it on their site anymore.I am serious.....and don't call me Shirley.
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11-23-2014 10:02 PM  6 years ago
heliadictaholic

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Hobart, Tasmania - Australia

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What do you mean their site? the aluminium fan above is not produced by anyone.... My own upgrade. there has been zero interest in the new design. Not worth me pursuing..... Way to costly for 1 or 2 fans.
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11-23-2014 10:22 PM  6 years ago
JRAY

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LaGrange, Georgia, USA

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Not the fan blades, as I know all of that is custom. I was speaking of the heli itself. Last time I looked, I couldn't find it listed anywhere. You're upgrades are fantastic, by the way.I am serious.....and don't call me Shirley.
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HomeScale✈️AircraftScale HeliScale Helicopter Main Discussion Docs  Blue Thunder Down-Under - Smartmodel 700 BlueThunder with fenestron
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