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Home🌌Off TopicsOff Topics Main Discussion › Nitro vs. Electric
06-03-2011 03:30 PM  9 years ago
Rogman88

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West Monroe, LA

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Once again, you stated to watch my second video, then imediately stated that the heli was bogging. Then later go back and state that you were refering to the first video (after first trying to make me look like I can't read). Who's playing games here? Who's playing the game of crawfish? You sit here and try to state that others can't read and are playing games when you constantly change your topic without letting anyone know that you've changed it!

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Watch the 2nd video that Rog posted then watch this one.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The second vid was with good batteries and unboggable. Then the sentence right after Lon post's his vid I see this.

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You can clearly hear the 12S setup loosing RPM when loaded while the 6S setup keep's a consistant 2250rpm through the whole 4min flight,might loose 50rpm ..
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My second vid didn't sound like it was losing rpm but the heli could take everything I threw at it and more as it was the good packs.

Then I see
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Try reading before posting--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and then...
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I said bogging in the first video,not the 2nd...--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
High Voltage just works better
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06-03-2011 03:33 PM  9 years ago
snjbird

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Kissimmee, Florida- USA

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Yes Lon those, did you save the files in the CSV format, or just the photos?
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06-03-2011 03:34 PM  9 years ago
BladeStrikes

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I said my 6S setup didn't loose rpm/bog like the first video and it held headspeed/power just like the 2nd video.<---Do you understand that?Is that too hard for you to understand?
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06-03-2011 03:35 PM  9 years ago
Rogman88

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West Monroe, LA

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Im talking about Turnigy's not lasting so what are you talking about?I answered this question below
You also stated this to back up your point about my 12S bogging with good batteries. This was not regarding turnigy batteries as you are falsly claiming, this was you trying to state that your 6S holds just as much power as my 12S system.
Yes and no.You jam the stick's all over the place,I pretty much do it in one spot .My point was my 6S setup hold's power just as good which it does.
I'm not whinning like you say. I'm just not letting you off the hook for blatant misrepresentation.
High Voltage just works better
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06-03-2011 03:39 PM  9 years ago
BladeStrikes

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snjbird Yes Lon those, did you save the files in the CSV format, or just the photos?
Just the pic's..I sent one of the graph's with video to a castle tech to make sure everything was good and here's the reply I got..
Lon,
Wow, the video looks great. If I was flying in that field I would be in the power lines in an instant. J I don’t see anything out of the ordinary in your log file images. However, to really analyze them I need the CSV file created when you save the data file from the graph viewer.
_____

Bernie Wolfard

Castle Creations

540 N Rogers Rd.

Olathe, KS 66062

913-390-6939 ext. 123
I sent another email asking how to get the CSV file but never got a reply ..
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06-03-2011 03:48 PM  9 years ago
BladeStrikes

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Rogman88
Im talking about Turnigy's not lasting so what are you talking about?I answered this question below
You also stated this to back up your point about my 12S bogging with good batteries. This was not regarding turnigy batteries as you are falsly claiming, this was you trying to state that your 6S holds just as much power as my 12S system.
Yes and no.You jam the stick's all over the place,I pretty much do it in one spot .My point was my 6S setup hold's power just as good which it does.
I'm not whinning like you say. I'm just not letting you off the hook for blatant misrepresentation.
You really have issues huh.We were taking about tail down tictocs useing more power and you not loading the heli as much as I do,learn to read what people say or stop twisting word's around because that's exactly what your doing.You pull bit's out of something said and put it in with something else .Stop acting childish.I said it many time's that my 6S setup made power closer to a 10S setup but your the only one not able to understand that.I also said your's make's more power but some how you can't read or understand that..Holding power and making power isn't the same,you do know that right?
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06-03-2011 03:59 PM  9 years ago
Ronald Thomas

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Gainesville, Fl, USA

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One case you have two batteries each at 30 amps producing 750 watts each. Total = 1500 watts

In the other case you have two batteries each at 30 amps producing 750 watts each. Total = 1500 watts

We're considering two systems with the same cells (one wired 6s2p and the other 12s1p) so it is a valid comparison for 6s vs 12s.

Can't get more basic than that.
Since you were having a hard time grasping BASIC efficiency of electronics and how it works, I was breaking it down for you....trying to make it easy
I tried
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06-03-2011 04:10 PM  9 years ago
Rogman88

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some how you can't read or understand that.
When you post one thing (see vid 2)then go back and say something else (I clearly meant 1)...yes your are very hard to understand.
High Voltage just works better
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06-03-2011 05:04 PM  9 years ago
BobOD

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but if you look you can find that in the same motor line, the motors that are wound for higher cell counts ARE more powerful!
AND more efficient according to the data there!
But, you cannot expect to put the same motor line in a system with 1/2 the voltage or vise versa. You have to look further.

I don't mean to be so argumentative but you just cannot look at a narrow view and draw your conclusion. Unfortunately, you have to look at the whole picture...and it gets quite big.
Team POP Secret
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06-03-2011 05:34 PM  9 years ago
Band1086

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Bob;
It's a simple dynamic test really, if the idea is higher wattage in the form of higher mA, has the same shaft power as higher wattage in the form of higher voltage, then take the 10S batts out of your LG and put in 6S batts that have the same wattage output. Then install a large enough pinion to get the same HS as the 10S provided. That will prove what we are trying to say, and the numbers games go out the window. It's the most simple way to prove what Rog says "High voltage just works better..."
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06-03-2011 06:16 PM  9 years ago
snjbird

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I'm not sure if you are yanking my chain here Bob?
AND more efficient according to the data there!
But, you cannot expect to put the same motor line in a system with 1/2 the voltage or vise versa. You have to look further.

I don't mean to be so argumentative but you just cannot look at a narrow view and draw your conclusion. Unfortunately, you have to look at the whole picture...and it gets quite big.
The line of motors that I posted are identical except the windings? The line of Motors I posted are used, per KV in every viable application, in a Trex 600? The 4025-1100 is able to run 6S with a 16T pinion, and 8S, the 4025-630 and the 4025-550 are both able to run 12S, the 550 being the more powerful? the 630 can be used with a 10S setup too?

So tell me, why can't you run the whole line? I ran the 4025-1100 on 6S and 8S, My buddy James has that motor in his 6S and it flies well! My other buddy Jamie ran the 4025-740 on 10S and it was awesome, I have the 4025-630 in my 12S 600 now, the one from the video I posted and it works incredible? I can name you 20 guys running the 4025-550 on 12S and they all rave about it's performance? So there it is 6S, 8S, 10S, and 12S? what am I missing?
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06-03-2011 06:34 PM  9 years ago
tadawson

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Lewisville, TX

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It's a simple dynamic test really, if the idea is higher wattage in the form of higher mA, has the same shaft power as higher wattage in the form of higher voltage, then take the 10S batts out of your LG and put in 6S batts that have the same wattage output. Then install a large enough pinion to get the same HS as the 10S provided. That will prove what we are trying to say, and the numbers games go out the window. It's the most simple way to prove what Rog says "High voltage just works better..."
Nope. To make a fair comparison, you would need to put in a motor that would draw twice 10/6 more current on the 6S to be comparable to the 10S. Then the power would be the same - the 6S would draw 10/6 more current, and have 6/10 less voltage. A pinion change won't do it . . . the motor wind needs to be correct for the voltage in use.

- Tim
Friends don't let friends become electrotarded . . . .
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06-03-2011 07:12 PM  9 years ago
g_dmitry

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Edmonton, AB, Canada

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No. Likely 6S motor will need to draw more than twice of 12S motor's current to have the same output power. Efficiency curves for lower voltage in general are worse.
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06-03-2011 08:31 PM  9 years ago
BobOD

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I'm not sure if you are yanking my chain here Bob?
Actually, I am a little bit to be quite honest.
My original post on this subject was in response to a claim that it is basic engineering that proves higher voltage requires less current and that this means it will be more powerful. Something like that. And I only wanted to point out that this is not necessarily quite so. If someone says that, I want to see the engineering...that's all. I'm also taking the opportunity to point out a lot of myths. Some people would think a 6s-2p running 60 amps will have a shorter life than a 12s-1p running 30 amps. This simply isn't so.
Also, I enjoy pointing out the efficiency thing. So many look at a figure that is published and expect it is the same no matter the conditions you are actually running...which isn't quite so either. Yes, I am playing semantics...indeed.

If you want my gut feel...12s is likely better. I don't quite understand why though. Is it the physics of it, or that there isn't an available motor optimized for it? Could be that a motor optimized for it would be bigger and heavier for some reason and that's why they move to higher voltage. That is my guess right now...but I was hoping someone else more knowledgeable in motor design would have given the answer. Because if I say it, I'm just assuming. And, people hate when I assume.

Sorry if I sound like a stickler...and probably a pain in the butt, but I like going through such exercises. We learn some stuff.
Team POP Secret
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06-03-2011 08:47 PM  9 years ago
g_dmitry

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If you want my gut feel...12s is likely better. I don't quite understand why though. Is it the physics of it, or that there isn't an available motor optimized for it?
It is a physics. Electric laws are a bit more complex than simple Ohms Law. There are plenty of resources on Internet about electric motors and tips for motor builders. It is explained very good why higher voltage motors are more efficient.
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06-03-2011 09:06 PM  9 years ago
Rogman88

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Sorry if I sound like a stickler...and probably a pain in the butt
We've never held that against you before...
High Voltage just works better
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06-03-2011 09:51 PM  9 years ago
Ronald Thomas

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That is my guess right now...but I was hoping someone else more knowledgeable in motor design would have given the answer. Because if I say it, I'm just assuming. And, people hate when I assume.
So if a bunch of guys who have been flying electric helis before you and have run both low voltage and HV setups and have ACTUAL world experience tell you it is so, it is not valid??? We all have to have degrees in advanced motor design to explain a simple principle and be believed???
I know you are not a firefighter BUT if you told me you could put out a match head fire with a simple breath, I would believe you because you have done it...over and over and that is good enough for me
Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!
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06-03-2011 10:41 PM  9 years ago
Band1086

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To make a fair comparison, you would need to put in a motor that would draw twice 10/6 more current on the 6S to be comparable to the 10S. Then the power would be the same - the 6S would draw 10/6 more current, and have 6/10 less voltage. A pinion change won't do it . . . the motor wind needs to be correct for the voltage in use.
Woops...my bad, you are of course right. However, that might not be possible(well maybe on less powerful setups). One of my 700's has a KDE/NEU 1917 N42 on 12S running 713's at 2350 HS(in IU2), which I have seen peak at a little over 9000 watts with 5000 TP 65C's, and the peak current draw was about 220A. And even though those were only the peaks, I can't imagine a 6S set up that would hit 9000W and 440A...I do not see that ever happening. High voltage just works better...and I'm excited about the comming 14-16S for even more shaft power!
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06-03-2011 10:54 PM  9 years ago
BobOD

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So if a bunch of guys who have been flying electric helis before you and have run both low voltage and HV setups and have ACTUAL world experience tell you it is so, it is not valid???
Ron, note that I said I was responding to the "engineering" of it. I never did question anybody's actual experiences. You gotta read me more carefully.
BUT,I know very few people who can say they compared apples to apples. Very hard to do to get conclusive results. Yes, when I see a lot of common results from various people, I suspect there is something to it, but I never say it is so until there is conclusive evidence. In fact, the ACTUAL world experience was just what I was looking for. Closest I came was on my 500. I went from 4s to 8s. I got higher c bats and more expensive esc and motor at the same time. I could not conclude anything. So, I'm hoping for one of you guys to provide more direct comparison information. Get it?

On that subject....ever fly a 600 Nitro with a 2400 RPM HS? I know you understand the difference between 21-2200 vs 23-2400. Just getting back on the subject here.
Team POP Secret
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06-03-2011 10:58 PM  9 years ago
Ronald Thomas

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Gainesville, Fl, USA

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Ron, note that I said I was responding to the "engineering" of it. I never did question anybody's actual experiences. You gotta read me more carefully.
In fact, the ACTUAL world experience was just what I was looking for.
Contradictory If real world experience answers your question, why the need to continue??? (he says as he pulls chain )
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