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06-02-2011 10:26 PM  8 years ago
BobOD

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New York- USA

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Since when did we start worrying about feelings this is EvN thread...
Darn you!!! That's N vs e

Big N for Nitrogen
Little e for electromotive.

Agreed by the entire scientific community.!

Get with the program fool.

Team POP Secret
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06-02-2011 10:33 PM  8 years ago
Rogman88

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West Monroe, LA

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My experience and I believe Lon has stated that he's had similar experiences at least with the turnigy packs, that after 50 cycles or so on 6S the packs really started losing power on our Trex 600's. In 12S setup, my crumpled turnigy's at 150+ flights can still get the heli in the air and do some stuff. As you guys heard, it does drop voltage bad towards the end.

I've never really thought that 12S was any more powerful than 6S when new. It's just that series tends to give more power the last minute of flights, and more usable cycles out of the packs.
Agreed by the entire scientific community.!

Get with the program fool.
LOL! Since when did we ever truely consult the scientific community?
High Voltage just works better
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06-02-2011 10:50 PM  8 years ago
g_dmitry

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Edmonton, AB, Canada

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So, just saying you cut the current in half does not automatically say you are more efficient. One could just as easily say you are doubling your voltage and therefore you are less efficient.
You need to read more about electrics.
You right, only if you don't take into account efficiency of different components. But looses in different components (connectors, wires, ESC, Motors, etc) are higher for higher current. It is well know and cumulative efficiency difference is huge between 6s and 12s.
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06-02-2011 11:37 PM  8 years ago
snjbird

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Kissimmee, Florida- USA

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Man I hate to throw a dog in this race, but I have run the gambit on the Trex 600CF. I was one of the first kids on my block to build a Trex 600E, and I first ran the stock power train, CRAP, absolute crap!

I later got a CC ESC and a scorpion motor and the improvement was massive, but with the same result on the batteries, it killed them! Why, current, the current to move that machine around on 6S is very high, it does not matter what ESC/motor you use. The better batteries today make even better power, and can deliver the current the 600 needs on 6S, but they wont last long outputting 30C and 60C for the whole 3.5 minute flight? The merit of an HV setup is less current= less heat, and longer battery life, and yes more power too!
After killing 5 $300.00 6S 5000mAH batteries, I tried 8S, still had heat issues, then 12S and I found a good mix of power, temps, FT and joy!

Watch at YouTube

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06-03-2011 12:44 AM  8 years ago
BladeStrikes

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My experience and I believe Lon has stated that he's had similar experiences at least with the turnigy packs, that after 50 cycles or so on 6S the packs really started losing power on our Trex 600's. In 12S setup, my crumpled turnigy's at 150+ flights can still get the heli in the air and do some stuff. As you guys heard, it does drop voltage bad towards the end.
People in my area do not get over 50 good cycle's with Turnigy's on 10 or 12S setup's flying them hard.The first video you posted wouldn't work power wise for me or anyone flying 3D,you can't even keep a load on it because it looses headspeed and you can hear it.Turnigy's suck,you should try some better battery's ..
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06-03-2011 12:56 AM  8 years ago
Wave

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Illinois

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People in my area do not get over 50 good cycle's with Turnigy's on 10 or 12S setup's flying them hard.
....which would equate to 15 - 20 cycles on a 6S setup.

....unless of course we reference your physics principles which would yield 100 flights on the 6S setup with the same loading.

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06-03-2011 01:11 AM  8 years ago
BladeStrikes

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Wave
People in my area do not get over 50 good cycle's with Turnigy's on 10 or 12S setup's flying them hard.
....which would equate to 15 - 20 cycles on a 6S setup.

....unless of course we reference your physics principles which would yield 100 flights on the 6S setup with the same loading.

Couldn't even get past 50 cycle's on a 500 size heli ,their crap lipo's .Doesn't matter what cell count you use with Turnigy's,their cheap and you get what you pay for .
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06-03-2011 01:29 AM  8 years ago
snjbird

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Kissimmee, Florida- USA

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I never did use the Turnigy with my 600, I did use the Flightmax 3000s and was surprised that I got 180 cycles. They were great packs on the 12S 600!

I had 8 Zippy Flightmaxs packs for my 500 and they did very well too.
But the Align 500 is a battery slayer, the Protos is lighter and a bit easier on the packs!
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06-03-2011 01:58 AM  8 years ago
BobOD

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You need to read more about electrics.
I actually do more than I read these days.

But anyway, I did ask where I might find some info on that...something I did not get from this crowd.

So, how is it well known? Was it measured...or calculated...with all the assumptions that always go with that?

As for wiring, yes, cumlative...but significant...NO.
As for the motor, I see 6S designed motors with the same efficiency as ones designed for 12s. So, if we beleive those numbers, then how are you saying that the eff at 12s is so much more than 6s. This does not add up.

ESC's at higher voltages are probably less efficient. That's why many have bigger heat sinks?

It all just does not add up for me so I just like to investigate.

And, Rog, regarding packs lasting longer in series versus parallel, take note, two in parallel producing 60 amps has both batteries at 30 amps. When in series producing 30 amps, they are both at 30 amps. In all cases, both batteries are under the exact same load. Absolutely no difference in stress on the bats.
Team POP Secret
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06-03-2011 02:09 AM  8 years ago
snjbird

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Yes, but when is series they don't have to produce the higher current.
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06-03-2011 02:17 AM  8 years ago
BobOD

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In both cases, both bats are at 30 amps and in both cases, the heli is getting the same power delivered.

Put another way, in parallel or series, both bats are sharing 1/2 the load. There is no difference no matter how you slice it.

The only way there could then be a big difference is if the heli was able to produce more shaft power with the same power input. But that would mean the eff is higher. But, when you look into the efficiencies, you see a point or two one way or the other. Net doesn't appear to be anything I would call HUGE.

So, is it a great big eyebrow lick or are we all missing something. I honestly do not know...but it doesn't add up is all.
Team POP Secret
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06-03-2011 02:25 AM  8 years ago
Rogman88

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West Monroe, LA

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I have put the same 3A batteries in parallel on my trex 600 when it had the scorpion 4025-1100kv and they did have really good power. Only did this 5 flights or so till my new scorpion 630kv came in.
People in my area do not get over 50 good cycle's with Turnigy's on 10 or 12S setup's flying them hard.
Are these the same people who say that your 6S heli performs as a 10S heli?

you should try some better battery's ..
Which one's have you tried that you would recommend?
High Voltage just works better
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06-03-2011 02:38 AM  8 years ago
wc_wickedclown (RIP)

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long beach calif

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i dont think no electric is gonna want none of this
the smoke and the noise adds to the excitement

Watch at YouTube

Insha Allah made in america
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06-03-2011 02:44 AM  8 years ago
BladeStrikes

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Which one's have you tried that you would recommend?
I owned and used Thunderpower's,not the newer one's but still better than Turnigy's..
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06-03-2011 02:56 AM  8 years ago
Eco8gator

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Palm Beach, FL

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The Thunder Power 65C packs are very very good. I fly a 6s 5Ah setup on my TREX 600 and its just a little warm after a flight no matter how crazy I get. The power output is flat from start to finish....simply the best pack I've tried.

I think there are some other vendors that sell 65C packs that range from 160 to 200. The TP's cost 250 and they will warranty packs if something happens in quite a few cases for no cost. If its your fault then they will give you 50% off on your replacement pack.
Xera Motors
ProBar
Minicopter
Thunder Power
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06-03-2011 03:06 AM  8 years ago
BobOD

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New York- USA

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If its your fault then they will give you 50% off on your replacement pack.
I wish they would just charge a little lower price and not do this. Two reasons:
1. I don't like paying for someone elses crash. Those that crash more deserve to pay more. Sorry but more efficient this way.
2. I rather not deal with the hassle of sending a bat back. Less efficient really.

Just my 2c.

They do make good bats though...I always had good luck with them.
Team POP Secret
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06-03-2011 03:06 AM  8 years ago
Rogman88

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West Monroe, LA

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Great demonstration of nitro power clown!!! You are right. My Logo wants no part of that thing!

I'm still wondering how properly done tic tocs are harder on a system than crappy ones with poor collective management.

High Voltage just works better
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06-03-2011 03:20 AM  8 years ago
snjbird

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Kissimmee, Florida- USA

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Here is the difference, the first is one of Lon's 6S flights, the second a 10S flight, the watt reading is pretty similar, temps, and current are pretty different.

Both are good power systems, but I feel the short coming of the 6S is heat, man the temps are right up there, on motor, ESC, and batteries... At least mine were?

I took one machine, and modified it through many different power systems. In the end, the system that lasted the longest, flew the best, and provided the highest "smile to dollar" ratio was... a Phoenix HV85, Scorpion 4025-630, and 3 3300mAH 12S batteries. The packs come down 10 over ambient max, and are ready to go on the charger in 10 minutes!
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06-03-2011 03:33 AM  8 years ago
Ronald Thomas

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Gainesville, Fl, USA

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Very basic electronics here
In both cases, both bats are at 30 amps and in both cases, the heli is getting the same power delivered.
The 6s lipo is delivering 30 amps through one battery @ ~ 25v, the 12s lipo is delivering 30 amp through two batteries at ~ 50+ volts.
(6s) 25v x 30amps = 750 watts

(12s) 50v x 30amps = 1500 watts

If the power system is asking for and performing at 800 watts, the 6s system is playing catch up while the 12 system is cruising. The 12s system is simply more efficient when doing the same work..........Ron
Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!
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06-03-2011 03:42 AM  8 years ago
BobOD

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New York- USA

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Again, if the power draw was the same and we're comparing a 6s2p to a 12s1p, then each cell had the same loading. If the 6s2p is warmer, they were not the same cells and should not be directly compared.

As for the motor temp, yes indeed, Lon's looked quite warm. What was the gearing between the two? Design of motor. Is it that it was generating more heat or was one dissipating more heat.
Lon was also showing 2430RPM vs your 2140RPM. That could do it right there.

Again, I do not know. I've never compared the two that closely. Just doesn't seem to add up to huge.
Team POP Secret
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