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06-02-2011 05:41 PM  9 years ago
BladeStrikes

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Rogman88
You can clearly hear the 12S setup loosing RPM when loaded while the 6S setup keep's a consistant 2250rpm through the whole 4min flight
Are you saying that you were loading your 6S as much as I was loading my 12S? I have a feeling that I know what Bands' rebutle is going to be.
Yes and no.You jam the stick's all over the place,I pretty much do it in one spot .My point was my 6S setup hold's power just as good which it does.
Wave
Are you saying that you were loading your 6S as much as I was loading my 12S?
Not at all.

He is saying that physics and electrical engineering are of no value, and that a 6S power system drawing 60 amps is clearly more efficient than a 12S power system drawing 30 amps for the same loading.

We'll call it Lon math. If you don't agree with Lon then you can't do the math.
Learn to read,noone was talking about AMP draws and your way off anyway's ..Just because it's a smaller setup doesn't mean it's not as efficient in holding power ,just pull's more AMP's..
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06-02-2011 05:52 PM  9 years ago
Rogman88

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You jam the stick's all over the place,I pretty much do it in one spot
Exactly. So is it not plausable that I'm loading my disk much more flailing the heli all over with heavy stick buried collective moves than you are loading yours sitting in a small box doing piros?

Here's my analogy on the two flights since we love doing math in EvN thread.

Two mules pulling carts.
Mule one (Lon's Mule) is pulling a 650lb cart fairly easily
Mule two (Rog's Mule) is pulling a 1000lb cart and strains to do so.

Someone say's "hey look at mule 1. He's not straining at all to pull his load but mule 2 is, so mule 1 must be as strong or stronger than mule 2" when actually the loads are different and not a good conclusion at all.

Where's Band and Bob at anyway?
High Voltage just works better
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06-02-2011 06:12 PM  9 years ago
BladeStrikes

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Exactly. So is it not plausable that I'm loading my disk much more flailing the heli all over with heavy stick buried collective moves than you are loading yours sitting in a small box doing piros?
I keep my heli loaded way more than you do.You jam the stick's all over the place but it take's alot more controlling it in one spot or trying to.Try doing 4pt tictoc's in one spot <-- It take's alot more power doing them than jamming the stick's like you are.Or try spinning tail down tictoc's.Just because im not jamming the stick's all over the place doesn't mean im not loading the crap out of the heli.

EDITED:: I just watched your video again and not once did you keep a consistant load on the heli,they were all burst ....
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06-02-2011 06:20 PM  9 years ago
g_dmitry

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Rog, you right. Big fast flying takes way more power than easy flying with some tick-tocs in a small box regardless of pitch management skills.
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06-02-2011 06:24 PM  9 years ago
BladeStrikes

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He is right but he didn't do any big fast flying,2-3 loop's is all I seen.I pretty much did a whole flight of big flying with my nitro for 7+ min's .
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06-02-2011 06:27 PM  9 years ago
Rogman88

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Rog's heli is a more powerful heli than yours Lon and you can indeed see it in that vid.
Now why would Bob say this?

High Voltage just works better
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06-02-2011 06:29 PM  9 years ago
BladeStrikes

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Because it's true ..That isn't my point..
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06-02-2011 07:57 PM  9 years ago
Rogman88

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It take's alot more power doing them than jamming the stick's like you are.
So my inefficient collective management is actually easier on the disk?
Or try spinning tail down tictoc's
Are these more power hungry than the other 8 points (four left and four right) that I'm doing?

What was my heli doing (besides bogging, as you put it) that made it seem so much more powerful than yours?
High Voltage just works better
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06-02-2011 08:28 PM  9 years ago
BladeStrikes

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It take's alot more power doing them than jamming the stick's like you are.
So my inefficient collective management is actually easier on the disk?
In the first video as soon as you started doing something,you let off because it started loosing headspeed.
Or try spinning tail down tictoc's
Are these more power hungry than the other 8 points (four left and four right) that I'm doing?

What was my heli doing (besides bogging, as you put it) that made it seem so much more powerful than yours?
Yes,spinning tictoc's use alot more power than side tictoc's.Try reading before posting ,I said bogging in the first video,not the 2nd...My post was saying that my 6S setup is just as efficient in power (consistent) as your's in the 2nd video,not more power but it isn't close to being underpowered.It had more than I needed..
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06-02-2011 08:34 PM  9 years ago
g_dmitry

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This is wrong. Never 6S setup will be as efficient as 12 setup. It could be more powerful (good battery, motor, etc), but never will be more efficient.
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06-02-2011 08:35 PM  9 years ago
Rogman88

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Yes,spinning tictoc's use alot more power than side tictoc's
Or try spinning tail down tictoc's
Hmmmm. Going to start doing these. I'll get a vid next week.
High Voltage just works better
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06-02-2011 08:42 PM  9 years ago
Rogman88

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So my inefficient collective management is actually easier on the disk?
In the first video as soon as you started doing something,you let off because it started loosing headspeed.[/quote]

The point is that my collective management really isn't as bad as I thought? How does this relate to properly done tic tocs being harder on the disc than crappy tic tocs?
I said bogging in the first video,not the 2nd...
So what you're really saying is that the 12S system kicks the 6S systems tail?

High Voltage just works better
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06-02-2011 08:47 PM  9 years ago
BladeStrikes

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Yes it does and I think that's why were going back and forth,you think I mean mine has the same or more power but I don't.Mine is around a 8/10S setup power wise.Guy's that flown my heli that fly alot of electric's said the same thing..I think im mixing up efficient because im talking about holding consistent power..
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06-02-2011 08:57 PM  9 years ago
rexxigpilot

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Lon, while you do a good job with your collective management, you are not pulling big loads for long on any of your flights. Rog's less than stellar collective management does require quite a bit more power. I agree with Bob that Rog's Logo shows considerably more power than your 600N.

One of the maneuvers that I found requires tons of power even when done with good collective management is the funneling tic-toc. Lon, I believe you mentioned this maneuver in one of your previous post as well. Therefore, I assume you can do these with some acumen. Can you shoot a video of your 600N doing tight funnel tic-tocs? I am very curious to see if your 55 bogs in this maneuver.

I can't do them with a nitro 50. 90 nitro and Logo 600 are not a problem. This is one of the maneuvers that really demonstrates power.
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06-02-2011 08:58 PM  9 years ago
Rogman88

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Gotcha Lon...Where's all the guys today? We can't be having fun all by ourselves.

Edit: Good Rex is here. Thanks for joining us!

Yes, I like tight funnel tic tocs too and the Logo does them well, even with crappy collective. Another plus for electric!
In the first video as soon as you started doing something,you let off because it started loosing headspeed.
The point is that my collective management really isn't as bad as I thought? How does this relate to properly done tic tocs being harder on the disc than crappy tic tocs?[/quote]
High Voltage just works better
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06-02-2011 09:27 PM  9 years ago
BobOD

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I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings here so please put that aside.

Here is how it appears to me just looking at one of Rog's and several of Lon's vids.

Lon is clearly working on precision....and seems to be enjoying himself doing so.

Rog is bashing it around the sky and does not seem to be so concerned about precision....and enjoying himself doing so.

Lon appears to be the better pilot overall. Sorry Rog. I'm pretty aweful at the precision stuff myself even though that is what I find most impressive.
Rog's heli seems to have more power. (that seems higher RPM than you said BTW...anybody know how to pic that up from the vid?)
Lon's vids are a lot longer.

Quite impossible to determine which is better there. I think maybe it depends on personal preferences.
Team POP Secret
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06-02-2011 09:48 PM  9 years ago
snjbird

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Man I leave to go fly for just a couple of hours, and look what I missed! LOL
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06-02-2011 10:02 PM  9 years ago
Rogman88

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I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings here so please put that aside.
Since when did we start worrying about feelings this is EvN thread...

Yes I don't think the CC software is giving me correct data as far as rpm.

The issue is not skill. It's electric verses nitro. Lon has many more hours flight time than me and it's going to be a while before I catch up, if ever.

It's kind of hard to understand what Lons posts are saying sometimes. Like this for example
Watch the 2nd video that Rog posted then watch this one.
The second vid was with good batteries and unboggable. Then the sentence right after Lon post's his vid I see this.
You can clearly hear the 12S setup loosing RPM when loaded while the 6S setup keep's a consistant 2250rpm through the whole 4min flight,might loose 50rpm ..
My second vid didn't sound like it was losing rpm but the heli could take everything I threw at it and more as it was the good packs.

Then I see
Try reading before posting
and then...
I said bogging in the first video,not the 2nd...
So it gets confusing as to what we are actually arguing about. Which is fun too I guess.
High Voltage just works better
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06-02-2011 10:09 PM  9 years ago
BobOD

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He is saying that physics and electrical engineering are of no value, and that a 6S power system drawing 60 amps is clearly more efficient than a 12S power system drawing 30 amps for the same loading.
I honestly don't know the truth as I have not gone through the engineering of 12s vs 6s but I want to point something out.

Some basics
Power loss is a function of V x I.
So, if you double your voltage and cut your current in half, the result is the same.

So, just saying you cut the current in half does not automatically say you are more efficient. One could just as easily say you are doubling your voltage and therefore you are less efficient.

Yes, if you are talking about transmitting over very long power lines, higher V turns out more efficient but in the short distances in a heli...not necessarily.

I'm not saying it is one or the other as I have not looked carefully. Just that there are a lot of variables. Hysteresis, winding resistance, timing error...etc.

But, here's a simple example just to demonstrate. Just looking at the battery alone as that's the most simple to understand.
Which stresses the batteries more...two 6s packs in parallel producing 60 amps or two 6s packs in series producing 30 amps?
Answer...they are precisely the same. So, as far as the batteries are concerned, they are under the exact same condition in parallel as they are in series. The batteries have no way of knowing the difference in the connection and they will produce the same total output.

The loss in the wiring is negligible. It would make the series setup more efficient...but is quite negligible.
The ESC??? I'm not certain. Since it is switching through a higher voltage, and this is the most significant variable for loss in a j-fet (delta v) I would think the higher voltage would be less efficient.

Motor...for a higher voltage, it needs to be a higher impedance....but will draw less current. So far the efficiency should be pretty close. This has the most variables so it's hard to say without getting pretty deep.

Until I did look more closely into the engineering, I'd be worried that the higher voltage systems may just draw more power...not output it.

Anybody know where there might be good information on this...I've actually been curious about it.
Team POP Secret
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06-02-2011 10:21 PM  9 years ago
BladeStrikes

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rexxigpilot Lon
One of the maneuvers that I found requires tons of power even when done with good collective management is the funneling tic-toc. Lon, I believe you mentioned this maneuver in one of your previous post as well. Therefore, I assume you can do these with some acumen. Can you shoot a video of your 600N doing tight funnel tic-tocs? I am very curious to see if your 55 bogs in this maneuver.
Ive been doing them and my OS 55 doesn't bog .Here's some sloppy collective management one's at 5:30

Watch at YouTube

round the 3min mark,can't remember but I have better one's than these so i'll look later.

Watch at YouTube

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