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06-01-2011 03:26 AM  9 years ago
BladeStrikes

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Shelby TWP,Mi

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Bob,
Read the last post here https://rc.runryder.com/t623415p1/ from Big-D and look at what I get to see fly this weekend .
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06-01-2011 03:44 AM  9 years ago
snjbird

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No way Bob, that is just different styles, Kyle pulls plenty of pitch, goes way faster, he has enough smack to keep you on the edge of your seat. Alan just favors low and near miss style 3D, were Kyle likes big and technical. Both pilots are top of their game, and both are flying great machines. You asked for a 6 minute flight, there it is.
The "drag race" video Proves that E wins a Drag race, nothing more, we already know Nitro has the FT race won hands down. That 120 video just proves that E has the raw power race down. A stock 700E vs the top of the range Super Nitro Heavy Weight, and the E knocked the n out in the first few second of the first round
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06-01-2011 03:48 AM  9 years ago
BladeStrikes

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Hay that "N",not "n" ..
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06-01-2011 03:55 AM  9 years ago
snjbird

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06-01-2011 06:40 AM  9 years ago
BobOD

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Both great pilots indeed but the AZ one looked to be generating more power. I've seen Kyle fly harder but not in that video. Not much to really argue about SNJ. You seem to have a good idea of it. But, there are those that would have you beleive that Nitros are weak pigs. I argue that they have pretty decent power and duration together. And take it a step further that if you powered the Nitro for shorter duration, you might just have the same raw power as electric....and still better duration. All the math, as sketchy as it is, leads to just that conclusion. Of course weight becomes an issue but I put a 91 in my 600 and with 4 minutes of fuel, it weighs similar to that of a performance setup 600e. And has the power of that 700N in the AZ video. I don't care who's heli can beat it. It surely is no weak pig. And you can always get a bigger electric motor and make sure you beat it. Of course we run right into the duration and or weight issues all over again. A lot of this becomes personal preference. I'm running 620's at 2400 RPM on a 600N quite comfortably. I don't care what's powering it, if it's holding the same RPM at the same pitch, the power is the same no matter how you calculate the power going into a motor. Smelly, noisey, dirty...yes. But I happen to like that about it.

And, I'll point out that if Tim Jones had started with 4-5 minutes of fuel, he would have beat that 700e from the beginning. Then the e didn't win anything. Honestly, the test was not thourough enough to prove anything conclusively....but it has to make you think that Nitros aren't necessarilly total pigs and that the claims some make are WAY exagerated.

Oh yeah, and BTW, I paid under $1000 for my 600. That includes a used RTF 600N and the new motor and muffler. Try to get a deal like that on a high performance 600e. That takes some mechanical effort and that may not be for everyone. That's fine...I'm not bragging about it. But, there are some that like to speak as though they are speaking for everyone. I would not be surprized at all if you didn't see more of such becomming off the shelf. Align, YS, OS...you listening? A 600 just doesn't come alive until above 2300. 55's don't seem to quite get you there.
Team POP Secret
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06-01-2011 11:58 AM  9 years ago
snjbird

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I can live with your whole post Bob, except this statement...

"And, I'll point out that if Tim Jones had started with 4-5 minutes of fuel, he would have beat that 700e from the beginning. Then the e didn't win anything"

The nitro's winning, or tying the third race had nothing to do with it being lighter, or warmed up, it only happened because of the "voltage sag" of the E... So I propose that the nitro stays as powerful as it was from 5 seconds, when it reached operating temp, till the end of the flight. The Electric heli had just lost it's edge. An ounce or two of fuel does not make that big of a difference, when we are talking about 2, 3 and 4 times thrust to weight ratio.

PS I bet money that the E heli had an aftermarket pinion, so it was not quite stock, and a BeastX too!

PS one more thing of note, Tim landed and idled for 30+ seconds twice, while the E stayed in the air.
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06-01-2011 01:27 PM  9 years ago
BobOD

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All good points and I think we are splitting hairs beyond that.

Actually, it was mentioned that Tim had a custom gear made. And, I made the pinion for my 600 (using a Mod1 main gear from the 700). Not off the shelf indeed. Yes, it might not be available for most but a technology is not incapable because we are unwilling to go after it. I've done it, and I imagine others have and more will probably follow.
I don't ever plan on making these gears for sale....I just don't have the equipment to make them efficiently, but, over the years, I have made more than a few for people just as a favor. Some people I don't even know directly (friend of a friend kind of thing). So the interest to tinker is out there and there are people in this hobby always looking to explore.
Thus I stated my beleif, it's easier with electric....which does not mean it is not worthwhile for Nitro. Just takes more effort...which is a part of the hobby I happen to enjoy.

Bob
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06-01-2011 01:52 PM  9 years ago
Rogman88

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I think it is equally possable that something different all together sweeps them both away.
I would bet that it involves moving electrons...not exploding liquid...
High Voltage just works better
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06-01-2011 02:43 PM  9 years ago
Wave

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Illinois

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it's easier with electric
Precisely the reason most guys like electric.

Simple, no drama, repeatable performance, that lets you concentrate on flying.

Time is valuable, so why waste it on tuning, tinkering, and cleaning an oily dirty mess ?
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06-01-2011 03:13 PM  9 years ago
rexxigpilot

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So Bob, when are we going to see that video of your 90 powered 600? There's an open challenge not met. You keep talking about it like it is the second coming! Let's see it. If it does exist, it likely flies so poorly it may not be worth watching. I guess you agree or you would have posted a video of it by now.

I'm amazed at your ability to suspend the truth in your posts. You now claim that Tim's YS120 powered machine beat the stock electric?! That's just plain delusional. Even Tim admitted he lost the contest. Watch the video again.

And now you say that Kyle Dahl's 6.17 minute flight on his Logo 600 was NOT more powerful than ASJ's 7.67 minute flight on the Align 700n. BTW, it's Alan Szabo, Jr., not Alan Zabo. AZ is Arizona.

I turned the sound off while watching both flights. That nitro model looked like slow motion video compared to Dahl's flight. I'm just simply amazed at how distorted you see things. Oh wait, I know, you were just stirring the pot, carry on.

I'm just mess'n with ya there Bob But seriously, turn it down on the nitro fantasy a bit. Some of the newer members may think you are actually serious with your posts.
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06-01-2011 03:17 PM  9 years ago
naked painter

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I'm lucky to fly both e and n.

My conclusion is that I'd prefer to have 8 mins of nitro flight to the 4 mins I'm getting on my two electrics.

However I can get away with flying electrics in areas that I wouldn't contemplate flying my nitro....
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06-01-2011 04:58 PM  9 years ago
rexxigpilot

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naked painter, I would not accept 4 minute flights either. That's why I fly a large electric with plenty of battery capacity. My switch to mostly electric came about after getting a Logo 600. Before that I had the T-Rex 600E as my only large electric. It was the first mainstream large electric and I got it as soon as it came out. It was very disappointing power wise; however, flight times were great at around 8.5 minutes. I think Align was shooting for flight time instead of performance - bad decision. It just was not much fun to fly until I put an aftermarket motor in it. Flight times dropped to around 5 minutes, but it sure was more fun to fly.

Then I got the Logo. It had everything...power, flight time and reliability. I could just charge and fly all day long. My Align and other nitro helis have never been very reliable. Always something to fix.

I blame most of the maintenance problems on the internal combustion engines and some on quality control. Nitro maintenance/repair issues will always be a problem as long as vibration and oil residue exist. These things will never get better with nitro. The engine is just one massive vibrating destruction device in an RC heli. Long term reliability and nitro appear to be mutually exclusive.

Sure, there is the Wankel engine, but they make such little torque that they are not suited to the high delta loading that goes on with an RC heli. Torque is king in this situation. Nitro just can't hold torque with changes in rotational speed.

This leads us back to electric power. Torque is there when you need it. You actually gain torque as you lose RPM's from the full load point. Nitro's days are numbered as a mainstream power system for RC aircraft. Even OS has figured that out as witnessed by their transition to manufacturing of electric motors.

If you like nitro because it's nostalgic, that's cool. But please don't delude yourself into thinking it is a superior power system compared to electric.
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06-01-2011 05:13 PM  9 years ago
twest38

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Maryland

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Me, personally, being new to the hobby,I would much rather pop an electric motor in a heli and charge a battery and fly than with fussing with a nitro engine.
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06-01-2011 06:11 PM  9 years ago
BobOD

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You now claim that Tim's YS120 powered machine beat the stock electric?! That's just plain delusional.
Define what winning is. Probably different to you and me.
To me, something with a bunch more flight time and can have a climb rate anywhere near the other is the clear winner.

Oops, AZ. LOL. I guess I was worried about being pinked if I was calling him AS.

As for my helis, I have a Trex600N which outpowers my Logo600e. Actually not...same power. Both 2400RPM, 14 degrees and no bog...but the Nitro does that power longer....and I construe that as more power. Could the Logo600e be changed to out-do it in some way? Certainly. 2500-2600 and 15-16 degrees??? Bigger motor/ batteries??? Or perhaps reduce the MAH and therefore weight. Lots of possibilities I suppose but I'm just not really interested. I'm quite happy with both just the way they are. So, keep trying to convince me otherwise if you please but no-one is getting very far with that. Not even close actually. In fact, I've swung from being a complete and total e-guy to this all the while I've been here. Kind of interesting eh?

Koodos to all you Nitro/Both guys out there....and thanks....freaking cool ride
Team POP Secret
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06-01-2011 06:24 PM  9 years ago
BladeStrikes

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My Align and other nitro helis have never been very reliable. Always something to fix.

I blame most of the maintenance problems on the internal combustion engines and some on quality control. Nitro maintenance/repair issues will always be a problem as long as vibration and oil residue exist. These things will never get better with nitro. The engine is just one massive vibrating destruction device in an RC heli. Long term reliability and nitro appear to be mutually exclusive.
Suck's about your luck but I fly my Align nitro every single day without issues.In one month electric cost me more $$ than my nitro's have close to 4 year's now so let's not try making electric's sound problem free because their far from it.Only nitro's I seen have vibe issue's are one's not tunned rightJust shows that noone will have the same experience..
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06-01-2011 06:25 PM  9 years ago
BobOD

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I turned the sound off while watching both flights. That nitro model looked like slow motion video compared to Dahl's flight. I
I have done the same and I don't agree. I do find it interesting that you apparently agree, then, that the sound adds to the impression of power. Just one more thing I happen to like about Nitro. I agree, this is NOT how everyone would see it. In fact, I already admitted...this is NOT how my wife, nor most of her girlfriends see it.
Team POP Secret
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06-01-2011 07:36 PM  9 years ago
Ronald Thomas

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You now claim that Tim's YS120 powered machine beat the stock electric?! That's just plain delusional.
Bob tends to make up theories and twist facts to make his conclusions work for him Don't worry, it is not you
Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!
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06-01-2011 08:33 PM  9 years ago
BobOD

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You now claim that Tim's YS120 powered machine beat the stock electric?! That's just plain delusional.
Bob tends to make up theories and twist facts to make his conclusions work for him Don't worry, it is not you
To me, something with a bunch more flight time and can have a climb rate anywhere near the other is the clear winner.

What's made up?
Team POP Secret
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06-01-2011 08:42 PM  9 years ago
Ronald Thomas

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To me, something with a bunch more flight time and can have a climb rate anywhere near the other is the clear winner.

What's made up?
Nuff said
Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!
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06-01-2011 08:50 PM  9 years ago
Rogman88

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Trex600N which outpowers my Logo600e.
I'd like to see that!
High Voltage just works better
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