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05-11-2011 05:52 AM  7 years agoPost 4341
BobOD

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New York- USA

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Here's one for you Band...

I have to give you guys this one. Electric is cheap indeed.

Seriously though, Rog's $104 packs for a Logo has me gnawing my greedy little fingernails. You'll have to let us know how they work out Rog? That's 6s right?

Team POP Secret

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05-11-2011 05:53 AM  7 years agoPost 4342
BobOD

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New York- USA

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Well, it has to be done if one is on the losing side, pulling out all the stops that is!
Shut up for crying out loud.

Team POP Secret

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05-11-2011 01:27 PM  7 years agoPost 4343
CX1

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Canada

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If this was just an e thread it would have ended on page 40!.

obviously Nitro is winning because it's still going!!

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05-11-2011 02:12 PM  7 years agoPost 4344
bkervaski

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Birmingham, AL, USA

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Nitro rules, electric is for girls and tree huggers.

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05-11-2011 02:39 PM  7 years agoPost 4345
Rogman88

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West Monroe, LA

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I love subtle little digs.
That's why I like you so much Bob!
Seriously though, Rog's $104 packs for a Logo has me gnawing my greedy little fingernails.
I've been flying some 6S 3000's on it that have about 50 cycles and are currently going strong. So the 6S 3600's should be good as well. Like Lon said, if they start to lose power, it's really no fun anymore. The good thing about 12S is that the amp draw is far less than 6S so you can get more milage out of your packs. Particularly in the 50+ cycle packs. I've got some worn out turnigy 6S 3000's that were on my Trex 600 ESP 12S that finally got to be no more fun at around 100 cycles. I crumpled them at 50 cycles in a "hard landing" when a vbar cyclic plug backed out. They still work for FFF and such, but my style of flying, no more fun

I figure on about 100 cycles out of turnigy's so I can live with a 1$ per flight opposed to the nitro alternative...

High Voltage just works better

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05-11-2011 02:55 PM  7 years agoPost 4346
Band1086

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Kennewick, Wa. USA

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How about this one guys, RC glow power has been around since the 40's or 50's, that's about 60+ years. It's seen some major improvements, not so much in efficiency, but in quality, longevity, and esp reliability, and power. Electric as an RC power source(on board battery) has been around since the Joker came out, maybe ten years or so ago, but with only nicads and such they weren't really viable. With the advent of the lipo(for helis) in '04(only 7 years ago) they started to become viable. Since then we've seen leaps and bounds of improvement in lipo tech, and of course ESC's and BL motors, to the point where electric tech beats glow tech in all categories except flight time.......for now. So, if we look at the trends it took approx. 50-60 years for glow to accomplish what it has and only 7-10 years for electric to pull ahead of it. In another 7-10 years of E improvement, glow may not even exist...or at least will only be flown for novelty sake. After all, it's almost there now!

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05-11-2011 03:13 PM  7 years agoPost 4347
Wave

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Illinois

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Correct...nitro is merely a novelty.

I am looking at resurecting my xcell pro for the sake of the novelty and quaint noise and smoke.

I expect the flights to be relaxing and low power. Definately good for that nostalgia, old school feel.

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05-11-2011 03:38 PM  7 years agoPost 4348
Rogman88

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West Monroe, LA

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glow may not even exist...or at least will only be flown for novelty sake.
I can see people having to mix their own nitro like the model deisel fuels one day. By then, electric will have been so much better than nitro, that even the nitro guys will have been converted. They may have little smoke machines and speakers to make the loud noises for the traditionalists...

High Voltage just works better

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05-11-2011 04:52 PM  7 years agoPost 4349
BobOD

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New York- USA

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OK, it sounds like it's time to dispel some more myths.

The specific density of the electrode materials in your batteries is about 160 mah/gram.
But, a typical 3600mah 12s pack weighs about 1200g. That's 36 mah/gram.
That means you are only operating at 22.5% efficiency.

Now add the esc and motor eff. loss and if you only fly your pack to 80% discharge, that puts your energy conversion efficiency to about 14%.

Sheesh, you'd think they'd do better than that after 40 years of development.

Team POP Secret

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05-11-2011 05:00 PM  7 years agoPost 4350
g_dmitry

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Edmonton, AB, Canada

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LOL. Then you should take into account the amount of oil and weight of the fuel tank too. So efficiency of nitro engine will come down from 10% to 7% LOL. Weight of the power system it self (and power source weight) has nothing to do with power system efficiency.

BUT, E storage efficiency will be increased and E will kick N one more time...

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05-11-2011 05:15 PM  7 years agoPost 4351
BobOD

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New York- USA

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The oil was accounted for. But, we are splitting hairs.

The main point is...it isn't what you thought eh?

Actually, it is good news for electric if anything. Always good to have room for improvement. Regardless that it took 40 years to get to 14% in something so simple as storing a little electricity. (just gotta throw in that dig any chance available. )

Team POP Secret

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05-11-2011 05:17 PM  7 years agoPost 4352
rexaholic

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United States

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E storage efficiency will be increased and E will kick N one more time...
Proof they already see it comming...maybe...

better to hedge your bets I guess

"Helis are proof that God loves us...Wind is proof that he also has a sense of humor!"

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05-11-2011 05:21 PM  7 years agoPost 4353
g_dmitry

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Edmonton, AB, Canada

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The oil was accounted for.
Nope. It was accounted only for energy amount calculation, but was not accounted for efficiency calculations. Dont forget about the weight of the fuel tank!

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-02...gy-density.html

600mah/g
Proof they already see it comming...maybe...
I am sure that OS just see how their sales goes down, and try to stay on the market.

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05-11-2011 05:40 PM  7 years agoPost 4354
Heli 770

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USA.

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???

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05-11-2011 06:29 PM  7 years agoPost 4355
BobOD

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New York- USA

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Nope, oil was included in the energy density calcs that Rex posted some pages ago.

BTW, there are other efficiency factors not being accounted for (in the motor for example). Interested?

I honestly don't see the point in digging in any further. It really is quite irrelevant. I was just trying to open some eyes is all....to the irrelevance that of things said on the e side.

So much more relevant - Nitro is just more manly.

Team POP Secret

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05-11-2011 06:36 PM  7 years agoPost 4356
g_dmitry

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Edmonton, AB, Canada

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Nope, oil was included in the energy density calcs that Rex posted some pages ago.
Power system efficiency and energy density of power source has nothing to do with each other. You lost in your own definitions LOL.

efficiency = energy out / energy in. This is not affected by density and weight of power source. I can put 10 times heavier battery with the same amount of mah, but my power system efficiency will be the same.

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05-11-2011 06:38 PM  7 years agoPost 4357
snjbird

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Kissimmee, Florida- USA

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Just to interject my 2c... I was out to the field yesterday, and today, flying my Logo. I normally bring a few helis, but I just wanted to work on getting comfortable with my new machine. I have the Logo setup to be able to fly at 2200, 2000, or 1900. I started out flying at 1900 just doing circuits and piro training. I was slowly raising the flight timer to get more flight time, as I was charging the flown packs, and seeing what the machine was doing as far as power consumption is concerned. I have 4 4400mAH 10S 40C packs for the Logo, so I was never waiting on a pack, I have 4 chargers, and a 2000 watt generator running. I have a WR super Hercules BEC, so no RX pack to charge, change or monitor!

In the end I had the timer set to 8:30, I would fly till the timer went off, then go to 2000 RPM and shoot autos for another 2ish minutes. The last pack that I charged was showing 38% left. Between yesterday and today I was able to do 10 flights a day. I learned to do inverted autos yesterday, and a practiced them the two hours I was out today!

So for what I was doing today and yesterday I am sure I could have run 20% or 15% fuel, but either would have cost me 18 or 20 bucks a gallon. If I had been flying a .90 20 flights is three gallons? A .50 I would have used around 2?

I started flying electric, a Trex 600CF, and soon moved to Nitro, for the extra flight time, and the cheaper cost... at the time TP and FP were the batteries to have 295.00 bucks a pop...
Now flying the Logo, and am pretty conflicted again, it is an awesome machine. The cost to gear up like I am is high, once you are all kitted out, then the main cost for a day at the field is a half a gallon of gas.

If my cheap 10S packs give me 100 flights; then the lipo cost per flight will be .88 cents I have about 20 cycles on each pack now, and they feel as fresh as day 1.

I would love to have "one of each" It would be cool to have a long line of all the coolest $hit, but that is not in the cards for me. So since I had to choose, the Logo was on my "lust list" for a long time, and the low cost of half decent lipos has made my choice easy to fund!

I hope all you guys can be as happy with your choices, as I am with mine right now!

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05-11-2011 07:42 PM  7 years agoPost 4358
BobOD

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New York- USA

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O.S. Engines making an O.S. Motor. How interesting.

You know, I happened to see a motor winding operation once. I recall a bunch of women winding and assembling a bunch of brushless motors. Kind of interesting but I enjoyed watching some guys machining engine blocks much more. That's just me though.

Team POP Secret

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05-11-2011 07:43 PM  7 years agoPost 4359
Rogman88

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West Monroe, LA

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I have 4 4400mAH 10S 40C packs for the Logo,
What brand are you using SNJ?
You know, I happened to see a motor winding operation once. I recall a bunch of women winding and assembling a bunch of brushless motors. Kind of interesting but I enjoyed watching some guys machining engine blocks much more. That's just me though.
Let me get this right...you enjoy watching guys more than watching women?

High Voltage just works better

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05-11-2011 07:53 PM  7 years agoPost 4360
snjbird

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Kissimmee, Florida- USA

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I put two Sky Lipo 5S 4400 40C together total pack weight with HS wires and plugs, 1150g...

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