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HomeOff Topics › Nitro vs. Electric
01-02-2011 04:01 AM  7 years agoPost 2021
Andy.Kim

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Seattle, WA

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FWIW,

There are only a few lipo manufacturers in China. Those packs are then rebranded under the various brand name and generic names that you are all aware of.

I'm a big believer in that you get what you pay for and when it comes to certain things I have nothing but the best. I bought nothing but Flight Powers but those packs couldn't reach 100 cycles. I know others that had the same problem with Flight Power as well.

After my experience (thousands of dollars) with "brand name" lipos and becoming aware that there's only 3-4 lipo manufacturers I am quite content with having "generic" brands. I'm currently using Spyder packs. Dave @ Progressive RC used to test chargers and lipos for other companies prior to his business. I have one of those quality lipos that's been rebranded under a different name. I save money without sacrificing my desire for power

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01-02-2011 04:07 AM  7 years agoPost 2022
philip 01

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ft worth

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you guys are hardcore. in more ways than one.

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01-02-2011 04:19 AM  7 years agoPost 2023
BobOD

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New York- USA

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you guys are hardcore. in more ways than one.
If you mean cement for brains....yeah, that fits me pretty good.

Team POP Secret

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01-02-2011 04:53 AM  7 years agoPost 2024
Band1086

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Kennewick, Wa. USA

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Had a good time flyin' today even though it started out at 15 degrees and ended up at 26 by late afternoon...
Band,
Give me your stats on your best e-setup. 600 class if you have that.
Heli model
cell count
mah
head speed
flight duration
mah put back in
motor used
AUW
Type of flying
Bob,
I've had 2 600 12S setups, I'll give both because my latest is really untested yet(just put it together).

First set up:
TR 600E FB
12S
2X 3000's outrage XP's
2400-2500
4 mins max
2400ma put back in
Actro 32-3 outrunner
about 8.5 lbs. if I recall correctly
Mostly drag racing, it was fast

Second and newest setup
TR 600E FBL V-Bar 5.0 RJX head
12S
2X 3300ma Voltz 35C
right now I have it set at 2200 HS, but that could change very easily
flight duration untested as of yet
put back...unknown yet
Kontronics Pyro 700-52
8 lbs. 3 oz.
3D similar to Mrkt's vid. However, I don't like the 600's as much as the 700's. Just like the 700 sized helis better than anything else. That's why I didn't fly the first 600 very much.

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01-02-2011 06:26 AM  7 years agoPost 2025
BobOD

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New York- USA

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What blades. I'd like to get disk loading in there.

OK, here's what we got.

12 cells
3000 Pack mah
2400 Charge mah
80% pack usage
2450 RPM
3864 AUW (g)
4 Duartion min
85% eff

45.6 v
137 Whr
2052 Watts Ave Bat Consumption
1744 Watts Ave at motor shaft
2.3 HP Ave at motor shaft

0.45 Ave power to weight (w/g)

You averaged 2.3hp for that flight. That's pretty good and would not be beat by a 55 equiped heli...not for average power for sure. The performance might on the nitro with it's tank somewhat depleted as it would gain a weight advantage but I'd put my bets on your electric.

The 91 I'm building would absolutely SMOKE it. And, I'm not chest beating or brow licking ...I am quite certain of this. But, I have more to do to show. My power to weight goal is 0.7 w/g. 0.6 is already a guarantee.

Team POP Secret

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01-02-2011 06:47 AM  7 years agoPost 2026
Band1086

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Kennewick, Wa. USA

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600mm blades
It may look that way on paper to you, but in the real world I think you'll find your mistaken...

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01-02-2011 07:10 AM  7 years agoPost 2027
BobOD

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New York- USA

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I might.
Which is why I like to check things in the real world.

Team POP Secret

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01-02-2011 07:18 AM  7 years agoPost 2028
Eco8gator

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Palm Beach, FL

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Bob...man your going to be displeased but an electric 600 will absolutely shame your 90 powered machine 600. I keep telling you that but you keep trying to dig into something that isn't worth exploring.

Regardless the only way you learn is to do and see the result.

I know a local guy right now that has exactly what your making. Ive personally flown it and its powerful but its not electric powerful. The ability to provide torque quickly is a huge advantage for electrics.

I know electric 50's on 10s that you can apply 14 deg of pitch right off the deck with minimal motor RPM lag. So powerful that in certain cases the motor shaft will sheer off.

Here is an example of a 12s 50 that would completely own you in any type of performance measure. You don't need equations for this one just your ears

Watch at YouTube

Enjoy
C

Xera Motors
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Minicopter
Thunder Power

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01-02-2011 07:25 AM  7 years agoPost 2029
Band1086

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Kennewick, Wa. USA

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Yeah, they are so radical the power is just stupid...

The 700's are even worse if set up that way because of the air the big blades can grab.

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01-02-2011 07:28 AM  7 years agoPost 2030
Andy.Kim

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Seattle, WA

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Very impressed by that video

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01-02-2011 07:29 AM  7 years agoPost 2031
wc_wickedclown (RIP)

rrProfessor

long beach calif

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just use gasoline 3 bucks a gallon

Watch at YouTube

10 min flight time and 1500 dollars cheaper then a elec the same size lol

Watch at YouTube

Insha Allah made in america

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01-02-2011 07:31 AM  7 years agoPost 2032
LonR

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Macomb,Mi

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Very impressed by that video
Yeah until the plastic LEGO broke and ejected the bomb LOL.

600LE,OS55,OS PowerBoost pipe,Align 610's,Spartan

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01-02-2011 07:35 AM  7 years agoPost 2033
BobOD

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New York- USA

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Eco8,
You may be missing the symantics I've been playing a bit here. Not sure if you have read all these posts. Probably not. There are a lot.

Note, I am talking average power throughout a flight. Yes, I have a Logo...know what it can do (mine don't fall apart though. ....sorry, this is the jab thread.). But , to me, the expression is a combination of power and duration. I do not expect what I am building to be able to handle the impulse power of electrics but it sure seems as though it is possible to come very close. But it is easy to see that it will have overall average power...that can already be seen in a 55...at least in my eyes. What I'm doing is very simple really. I'm taking a nitro that clearly distributes more energy over a longer period and shifting it more towards what the electrics can do....a little less energy over a very short amount of time.

Anyway, I would love to hear some information on this 91 you refer to. Was it able to fully load the motor? Won't you share? Telling me it cannot be done is futile because I've yet to see someone that has done it in a way that would satisfy my curiosity.

Anyway, not to worry, it is not a waste of time. This is my "play time" project and it will not disapoint me at all.

OH, and one more thing...if nobody did any calculating at some point, you wouldn't be flying anything. :P

Team POP Secret

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01-02-2011 07:51 AM  7 years agoPost 2034
Eco8gator

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Palm Beach, FL

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He didn't strap down the battery. There is a post about it on RR. The Logo was fine until the battery ejected.

Regardless you guys are funny. What secret is there. I used to own an OS70 TREX 600 and I fly with a guy that has a YS91 in a TREX 600. Hell I have video of that too in my archive Again before the 55 came out the 50 wasnt cutting it so 90s where an option to explore for me. I wanted almost electric power but nitro duration. Can I fully load the motor...I don't know. All I know is the sound that it made which was the following....you'd hear the engine load(HS would drop to a point but not go back up...gove ran out of room I guess) and then get to a constant tone and it would stay that way until you let off full pitch...this is with over 13 deg of pitch.

A powerful electric would not bog at all.

But who cares about average power during a flight...electrics regulate the power accordingly to maintain HS. Nitro's do pretty much the same thing as long as there is a governor. Average power doesn't mean anything...power available during a period of demand is what actually count.

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Minicopter
Thunder Power

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01-02-2011 08:10 AM  7 years agoPost 2035
BobOD

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New York- USA

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I know,I was kidding about the battery falling out. :P
Average power doesn't mean anything
You mean it doesn't mean anything to you...don't you? I'm sorry to point this out but you should not assume that what you enjoy is the same as all others. The best video I have seen posted in this very thread is a nitro machine. It gave very good power continuously over a nice long flight with a pilot that clearly had the skills to take full advantage. Jerking a heli around has gotten boring to me...been around long enough. And I was completely an electric fan for 10 years having left nitro behind at least that many ago.

I'm still an electrics fan...but right now...nitro excites me again.

As far as the trouble you had with the 600/91, I will see if I can get that worked out. Sounds like a classic case of not operating in the best RPM range of the motor...but without information, it's hard to say for sure.

Team POP Secret

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01-02-2011 09:56 AM  7 years agoPost 2036
LonR

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Macomb,Mi

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As far as the trouble you had with the 600/91, I will see if I can get that worked out. Sounds like a classic case of not operating in the best RPM range of the motor...but without information, it's hard to say for sure.
Thats about it because the video he posted that he claimed has a OS 70 in was a slug and not setup right.I just watched his video again and wonder if that was even a OS 70 because the video was JUST uploaded the day he started trashing your project.It bogged doing tictocs so if it even was a OS 70,the owner needs to set it up right and stop taking advice from people that can't.
Heres more threads if you wanna read them and this is what a BB 600N sounds like with no bog unlike the video he posted which was total garbage.This guy might not be a awesome 3D pilot but he was hammering the sticks and kept the heli loaded the whole time.The OS 70SZ-H with 22T pinion runs the same way but gets 7 mins of flight time
https://rc.runryder.com/t559502p1/
https://rc.runryder.com/t395186p1/

EDITED::Eco8gator,im willing to bet thats you in the Black Diamond video because I just noticed its from your channel .What did you say "dump them OS 55 and stick a bigblock in it" ,now thats some police work there buddy because your BUSTED .

This is the video from the first link and its a YS 91st,not the stronger YS 91SR like you have.I love what the guy in the video says.

Watch at YouTube

600LE,OS55,OS PowerBoost pipe,Align 610's,Spartan

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01-02-2011 10:25 AM  7 years agoPost 2037
LonR

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Macomb,Mi

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Bob,you have to love how Eco8gator claims he can drain the tank on a proper setup 600N with a OS70 thats BETTER on fuel than a 90.Check out the flight time on this 600N with a 90 in it.The guy keep dogging your project like he knows what he talking about when he clearly doesn't.Like I said,a 600N with a 90 thats setup right will get around 5:30 mins of flight time..

Watch at YouTube

600LE,OS55,OS PowerBoost pipe,Align 610's,Spartan

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01-02-2011 03:09 PM  7 years agoPost 2038
Eco8gator

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Palm Beach, FL

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Just so you know that was a flybarless 600 with a 90. You also have to understand the story behind the story. We got that 90 on RR dirt cheap...like just over 100 bucks with a pipe. Would we actually dump the 55 over it...nope...fly's with the same authority and the entire airframe is lighter so you don't need 620 blades not to mention the machine flys longer. BTW, look at the date of the FF...the 55 had just come out still wasn't really an option that we felt was proven...until later

That's the machine I'm talking about locally too I've flown it too(quite a few times) and know exactly what you can do with it. It feels heavier than a heli with a 55, and flys for less time on a tank of gas.

Again I owned an OS70. You see how all my machine and machines around me run. Wasn't it you that had the Velocity 50 that sounded like it was going to fall out of the sky because it bogged so much. I cant give you too much grief on that one since it was a YS50 and other than being reliable it doesn't put out the punch.

The project is going to work out...never said it wouldn't. Again videos prove it will the helis are flying aren't they?

And here is one important piece of info. The gear ratio you see in the vid is stock. No fiddling no nothing. Mounted and go just make sure its centered.

Xera Motors
ProBar
Minicopter
Thunder Power

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01-02-2011 04:54 PM  7 years agoPost 2039
BobOD

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New York- USA

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Well, I don't really want to turn this into a flame war...again...not my intent at all. It's not about this one did this or that wrong. If you're faving fun...you're doing it right and that's good enough for me.

Now LonR, just looking at that last video, I have to admit that it doesn't look any more impressive than many "long duration" elec videos I've seen. In fact, not even any more so than a 55. But, it looked like the motor wasn't working hard at all. I mean, if you see a 90 in a 700 machine, right away you can tell it is being worked and getting a LOT more poneys out of it. This is what I am after. In fact, the first thing I realized before I even bought the motor is that if I used any gearing from the 600 and set it up the way I intend, a gear strip would be guaranteed every flight.

Next step was to get the gears. I checked Infinity...nothing suitable for my needs. So, I made my own....I'm lucky enough to have that ability.

I also keep thinking someone must have done this??? There are a lot of people in this world...you know? But, then again, I hope I don't find that now. I'm enjoying the adventure.

Team POP Secret

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01-02-2011 05:27 PM  7 years agoPost 2040
Eco8gator

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Palm Beach, FL

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You won't strip the stock gears with the 90 nitro engine.

And your right 90's do look more powerful but I'm pretty sure that has to do more so with disk loading that actual power available. That's the issue with the 600 with a 90 in it. Wait till you weight it you'll be surprised. One thing to consider is how much bite your blades have even if the power is avilable....you can only apply so much pitch before the blade stalls.

The engine comes down cold after a flight and its not being worked, it gets loaded to a point and pulls from there.

Xera Motors
ProBar
Minicopter
Thunder Power

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