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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Collective Management...how would you explain it to a noob.
10-15-2010 04:36 PM  8 years agoPost 1
Rogman88

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West Monroe, LA

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When I first got into heli's last year I'd heard the term collective management and incorrectly summized that you just didn't push the collective to the extreme so that you don't bog the blades. As I'm progressing and watching videos I see that's not entirely true. I wished I'd had someone explain to me what that was and the priciple behind it.

Here's my noob explanation: Imagine you are using your dremmel to shave down a piece of wood. If you hold the dremel head to hard against the wood the RPM's go down and it's not as effective at removing the unwanted wood. Now if you back off and bump the wood repeatedly keeping the rpms up on the dremel then you can remove the wood much quicker by using the energy built up in the fast rotating dremel head.

The blades of a heli are similar to the dremel head and if you bump the collective repeatedly you can use the energy stored up in the blades to rapidly propel the heli in the air while keeping the head speed up like during a rainbow with the pause in the middle that we see so often.

Any other simple analogies for noobs learning collective management?

High Voltage just works better

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10-15-2010 06:19 PM  8 years agoPost 2
BarracudaHockey

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Jacksonville FL

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Most engines will bog at 16 or 17 degrees of pitch, so if you're using cyclic and collective at the same time, good collective management (and really its energy management) is knowing when to back off one or the other (and which one to back off) to keep from bogging your head down.

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com

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10-15-2010 06:22 PM  8 years agoPost 3
Zaaaguy72

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MN

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Energy management is a very good term for it Barracuda.

Team Sanjel!

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10-15-2010 07:01 PM  8 years agoPost 4
oldfart

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Vancouver, Canada

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All motors have a limited amount of power. If the motor can turn a particular rotor at 2000 rpm, at a pitch of 12 degrees in an all out climb using collective only, while at full open throttle, then that is all the pitch it can pull without bogging.

So, if one has a collective curve of 12 degrees and cyclic pitch set for 7 degrees, then any combination of the two that adds up to more then 12, will cause the motor to start to bog. The higher the number of total pitch above 12 the more the bogging.

Simply because, even if your governor opens the throttle fully, the load presented to the motor will be more then it can handle at the rotor speed you have set to fly at, so it will bog.

For example, a collective of 5 and the full 7 of cyclic will be the limit (5 + 7 = 12). So if while flying a maneuver, your right stick is moved to ask for the full 7 degrees of cyclic, then you will only have 5 of collective available to move the left stick before bogging will start.

Of course, if you use just (7 & 7) then you soon be into the dreaded bog.

As most maneuvers do not require as much collective as most people initially think, they are properly flown with a lot of cyclic but far less collective then one will initially use. So the key is to back of on the left stick when cranked over on the right stick and vice-versa.

Phil

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10-15-2010 07:59 PM  8 years agoPost 5
Rogman88

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West Monroe, LA

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Great post Fart! I never thought of the relationship of cyclic and collective much. The combo of me hammering both sticks is why I've been compensating for my inadequaces with 12S and FBL. I have recently been paying more attention to my cyclics and not trying to hammer as much. I have found that moves, particularly piro based, don't need nearly as much cyclic (and collective for that matter) as I initially thought to make the heli do stuff.

High Voltage just works better

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10-15-2010 08:59 PM  8 years agoPost 6
LonR

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Macomb,Mi

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+1 oldfart .I run my pitch and cyclic just like you said,12 degrees of pitch and 7 degrees of cyclic on my Velocity 50.I can bang out some tictocs or be hard on the sticks with out bogging it and I don't have a OS55 or YS56,just a little YS50st .Most people think you need a OS55/YS56 to keep the heli from bogging or 13-14 degrees of pitch for 3D when you don't.Finding the sweet spot in your pitch range is the same as the motors sweet spot.Once you find it,you tell the heli what to do,not the other way around.

600LE,OS55,OS PowerBoost pipe,Align 610's,Spartan

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10-15-2010 09:27 PM  8 years agoPost 7
Richardmid1

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Leeds, England

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Why does this question keep coming up?! It doesn't matter to a 'noob' what it means. Noobs have enough to think about without worrying if their 'collective management' is set right! I guess it would mean something to you if you were doing 3D but a noob wouldn't be doing 3D! And if he was he would be doing this mystical 'collective management' thing automatically!

If your heli is falling out of the sky and crashing you need more practice not 'collective management'!

60% of the time, it works every time!

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10-15-2010 10:08 PM  8 years agoPost 8
oldfart

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Vancouver, Canada

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Yes, and that reminds me that I forgot to mention the additional load demands on the motor that will result from the use of rudder through maneuver....specially right rudder.

Using this in conjunction with collective and cyclic will also need management to balance the three relative to the power available.

Phil

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10-15-2010 10:13 PM  8 years agoPost 9
ncostes

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Va, US

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Thanks for the good explanation Phil.

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10-15-2010 10:15 PM  8 years agoPost 10
dialarotor

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Traverse City, Michigan

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Spokety spokety spokety instead of boogety boogety boogety
Jam the left stick to the 12 O'clock position. If your circular rotor disc all of a sudden looks like a wagon wheel with spokes, that is too much pitch or you need more nitro or a bigger engine

RapRexSynLogo Pilot

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10-16-2010 12:43 AM  8 years agoPost 11
WATCH-THIS!

rrVeteran

NW Michigan. Rotor Rebels

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^^ Is that how it's done ^^ I use 10:30 so the tail moves too

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10-16-2010 03:04 AM  8 years agoPost 12
Rogman88

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West Monroe, LA

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Why does this question keep coming up?
For the reason stated in the opening sentence. Hint...It is frequently misunderstood. For example, I had heard the term but had incorrectly summarized what it was.
It doesn't matter to a 'noob' what it means. Noobs have enough to think about without worrying if their 'collective management' is set right!
Actually few noobs will not know this, but we shouldn't shelter them from being exposed to the knowledge because one day they may need it. I've been flying for a year and a half and not given much thought to rechecking collective/cyclic pitch. I am glad that it was mentioned. My initial intent was for when "collective management" was searched on this forum that noobs would have an explanation of it verses the many threads where someone tells someone else that "they need better collective management" but never actually explained what it was.
If your heli is falling out of the sky and crashing you need more practice not 'collective management'!
Nobody is talking about crashing, just aspects of collective management that may be beneficial to others...forgive me Richard for asking but did someone poo poo in your cereal this morning?

Roger

High Voltage just works better

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10-16-2010 03:39 AM  8 years agoPost 13
crflyer

rrApprentice

Maine

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Well said Rodger

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10-16-2010 04:25 AM  8 years agoPost 14
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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So then the trick with collective management is to bump the collective to full for just a moment and then drop it back? I like to do that anyways because it makes the blade "pop" sound, but I've always assumed it was going to destroy something and was not particularly good for the helicopter.

Avant RC
Scorpion Power Systems
Thunder Power RC
Kontronik Drives

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10-16-2010 04:34 AM  8 years agoPost 15
LonR

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Macomb,Mi

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You can make the blades pop all day with 11 degrees of pitch,its a mix of cyclic and snapping pitch at the same time..

600LE,OS55,OS PowerBoost pipe,Align 610's,Spartan

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10-16-2010 11:27 AM  8 years agoPost 16
WATCH-THIS!

rrVeteran

NW Michigan. Rotor Rebels

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Stick banging management

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10-17-2010 10:33 PM  8 years agoPost 17
Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

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It still cant be taught no matter how many times its explained. It comes naturally as you progress and it wont speed the learning curve up by understanding it.

60% of the time, it works every time!

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10-17-2010 11:25 PM  8 years agoPost 18
fastflyer20

rrKey Veteran

N. Tonawanda, NY

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OS50 - why does it keep bogging?

12S electric - collective management, what is that?

In all seriousness, I am much more impressed with someone flying the daylights out of a OS/YS50 than a 55/56 or electric.

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10-18-2010 10:39 AM  8 years agoPost 19
Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

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Here here fastflyer!

If you are bogging an OS50 then it is not tuned correctly.

My theory about the need for a 55/56 is where you fly i.e. high temperatures and/or high altitude. No need for a 55 here in the UK!

60% of the time, it works every time!

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10-18-2010 09:15 PM  8 years agoPost 20
Rogman88

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West Monroe, LA

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So then the trick with collective management is to bump the collective to full for just a moment and then drop it back?
You are absolutely correct. The quick "pop" takes the energy from the blades and uses it to spin/flip/send the helicopter another direction and then when you go back to neutral (or close to it) you allow the energy to be built back up into the blades with the increased RPM. You make quick withdrawls from the account and allow the money to build back up so to speak. If you make too big of a withdrawl then the blades bog and bad stuff happens
It still cant be taught no matter how many times its explained. It comes naturally as you progress and it wont speed the learning curve up by understanding it.
Nobody likes to taste poo poo in their cereal in the morning...I feel your pain Richard. We just shouldn't provide any references to enhancing skill performance as it is just a waste of time
Kinda like telling people that they've got to catch more fish. But don't tell them how to work the bait or how to rig it up. Great philosophy

Roger

High Voltage just works better

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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Collective Management...how would you explain it to a noob.
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