RunRyder RC
WATCH
 4 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2      3     NEXT    >> ] 2773 views POST REPLY
HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › How much of a performance improvement does flybarless setup give you?
10-15-2010 02:03 AM  8 years agoPost 1
SpinergySpox

rrNovice

Green Bay, WI

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I’ll admit that I’ve always been a few steps behind the times. I like to see how popular new developments become before partaking. It seems as though many people are now buying flybarless helis or looking to convert their helis to flybarless setups.

Thus far, I’ve been pretty darn happy with the standard rotor heads--i.e. with flybars. Will a flybarless setup give me significant jump in performance? Or is there some other benefit to it?

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 02:47 AM  8 years agoPost 2
iHover

rrVeteran

Berne , NY

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I had an emergency auto I pulled off this weekend that I don’t think I would have made with a fly bared 600.
I was flying low about 5 ft. making a pass parallel to the runway. The runway is mowed of course but beyond its edge the weeds grow about waist high. I was a good 10 ft or so into the weeded area when the esc gave up the ghost. I made a nose in turn to put it down on the runway. I didn’t think it would have enough left after the turn to clear the weeds but it made it.

You had me at Hover

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 03:39 AM  8 years agoPost 3
BrainDrain_dx

rrKey Veteran

Wichita KS

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

its generally said 10-15% performance gain. My 450 seem more like a 50% improvement as flybarrless is just nutz. I dont even want to fly my flybarred 700 after flying my flybarless one. my flybared 700N is a slow turd now and this time last year it was the cats meow.

KDS Agile 7.2/5.5 Chase 360 - SkyHero Spyder/Spy/Little Spyder
Sponsored by my Visa

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 05:57 AM  8 years agoPost 4
Terrabit

rrElite Veteran

Seattle, WA - USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I refuse to comment on yet another fbl thread! Nope! No sir, not gonna do it. La la la la la la la can't hear you! The answer is NO because motorcycles don't have doors. Where's the tower? Where's the gun? Where's the tower? Where's the gun? Does my pee pee make me evil? How now brown cow? Scooby dooooo poooo's toooooo!

Sorry about that.

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 06:10 AM  8 years agoPost 5
RAK402

rrElite Veteran

Alhambra, CA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I got a very large improvement on the Trex 250.

More power, much more stability, much more control, and more pleasant to fly.

Team KBDD/Compass Team Manger/Experience RC/Team JR Americas/WR Field Rep

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 07:03 AM  8 years agoPost 6
Band1086

rrElite Veteran

Kennewick, Wa. USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Improved power due to less drag. Less weight due to cleaner mechanical setup. Also, much greater stability, and agility.
But remember, not all FBL systems are the same...

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 07:08 AM  8 years agoPost 7
Heliflyer69

rrVeteran

Northen Cali

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

SpinergySpox,
Ive been wondering the same thing. This is the first (is fbl better) thread ive read, so thx for making it

Roy

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 07:25 AM  8 years agoPost 8
Terrabit

rrElite Veteran

Seattle, WA - USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Improved power due to less drag. Less weight due to cleaner mechanical setup. Also, much greater stability, and agility.
But remember, not all FBL systems are the same...
Okay fine! Faster, easier and less expensive repairs too! Ever have to cut a 4mm flybar out of a wrecked head with a pair of sidecutters? NOT EASY!

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 11:50 AM  8 years agoPost 9
heli-cuzz

rrElite Veteran

Pittston, Pa. USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Here's how I look at it.

Flybarred heli flying was fun!
Flybarless heli flying IS MORE FUN !!!!

Fury 55 NIB Furion6 CGY750 fbl helicopter-Frenzy CGY750 fbl nitro-Frenzy fbl NOBAR90

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 04:44 PM  8 years agoPost 10
Rogman88

rrElite Veteran

West Monroe, LA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Ever have to cut a 4mm flybar out of a wrecked head with a pair of sidecutters
Only had to do it on my 450. And yes, it sucked. I can't imagine doing it on a 600!

Yep it's been a while since the last FBL/FB thread and the guy closed it prematurely. I'm glad we have a new one to keep us occupied!

In summary. I like the way it flies better than FB but am still on the fence as to whether its 10% better or 15% better. I don't like all the TT gear and aileron horn stripping and plugs backing out of the vbar that have happened. I now have aluminum horns have sticky tape on the vbar pluds and belt drive so we will see if all is well.

High Voltage just works better

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 09:43 PM  8 years agoPost 11
Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Depends whos flying it. If the same person were to fly the same heli flybarred then flybarless back to back the people watching probably would be able to tell the difference (if ide setup the flybarred heli anyway!)

60% of the time, it works every time!

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 10:09 PM  8 years agoPost 12
jones007

rrApprentice

Monterey, CA - USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Improved power due to less drag. Less weight due to cleaner mechanical setup. Also, much greater stability, and agility.
But remember, not all FBL systems are the same...
However, don't forget the increased control latency due to electrical sensors, filters, calculations, signals sent to servos, servo response, as opposed to the instant response on a mechanical flybar. Control latency always leads to increased drag, and eventually instability.

The question is - do the reductions in drag due to the removal of the flybar, as well as the loss in total mass outweigh the losses incurred by having a slower control system?

I have read countless posts in countless threads on many forums, where supporters of flybarless systems preach the superior efficiency of FBL, but I have yet to see experimental evidence to back it up. I'm not saying that I know the answer, I'm just wondering how so many people are convincing themselves of these reported performance benefits in what appears to be a vacuum of quantitative data.

There's some other potential negatives - in particular during auto-rotations, and if you search, you'll find some posts on this. The FBL electronics will try to enforce commanded cyclic performance during an auto, regardless of how much energy is bled out of the system to do it, and will mask the slowing response of the head as the headspeed diminishes, as the system will just ask for more cyclic to get the commanded response. With a flybar, the pilot will definitely be aware of the loss in headspeed due to the slowing control response. I suspect that this will show up in the percentage of successful head-stop autos by FBL and FB setups. If I had to guess, I would say that FB would win this one.

Also consider the increased wear and tear on the cyclic servos, which now get beat-up like a tail servo, but with much higher loads.

--Kevin

Trex 700N, Trex 600ESP, Trex 500, Trex 450Pro

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 10:27 PM  8 years agoPost 13
Terrabit

rrElite Veteran

Seattle, WA - USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

However, don't forget the increased control latency due to electrical sensors, filters, calculations, signals sent to servos, servo response, as opposed to the instant response on a mechanical flybar. Control latency always leads to increased drag, and eventually instability.

The question is - do the reductions in drag due to the removal of the flybar, as well as the loss in total mass outweigh the losses incurred by having a slower control system?

I have read countless posts in countless threads on many forums, where supporters of flybarless systems preach the superior efficiency of FBL, but I have yet to see experimental evidence to back it up. I'm not saying that I know the answer, I'm just wondering how so many people are convincing themselves of these reported performance benefits in what appears to be a vacuum of quantitative data.

There's some other potential negatives - in particular during auto-rotations, and if you search, you'll find some posts on this. The FBL electronics will try to enforce commanded cyclic performance during an auto, regardless of how much energy is bled out of the system to do it, and will mask the slowing response of the head as the headspeed diminishes, as the system will just ask for more cyclic to get the commanded response. With a flybar, the pilot will definitely be aware of the loss in headspeed due to the slowing control response. I suspect that this will show up in the percentage of successful head-stop autos by FBL and FB setups. If I had to guess, I would say that FB would win this one.

Also consider the increased wear and tear on the cyclic servos, which now get beat-up like a tail servo, but with much higher loads.
Spoken like someone who has NEVER flown a fbl heli. No one who has flown two identicle helis, one fb and one fbl, would question the increase in power. When you figure out a way to measure the difference, maybe you'll drop this absurd denial. And, the increase in flight time is VERY quantifiable.

As far as the latency question goes, where is your quantifiable evidence? Show me some numbers mr nay sayer! And the difference between fb and fbl in autos is that fbl looses almost NONE of its cyclic authority as the blades spin down. Again, I think if you had ANY experience with fbl you would know this.

With the wear and tear, again, where is your data? For someone who challenges the validity of other peole's first hand experience based on "quantifiable data" you have zero of your own. Bring it!

Personally, I don't give a damn what you fly, if you fly or what you think. Whatever gets you off - that's what you should do.

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 10:41 PM  8 years agoPost 14
jones007

rrApprentice

Monterey, CA - USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Spoken like someone who has NEVER flown a fbl heli. No one who has flown two identicle helis, one fb and one fbl, would question the increase in power. When you figure out a way to measure the difference, maybe you'll drop this absurd denial. And, the increase in flight time is VERY quantifiable.
I'll believe the data when I see it. If you have the flybar head, log some comparable flights with both setups, and post the data. You're right, I don't have a FBL setup, so I can't do this myself without investing a lot in technology that I'm not sure I want a piece of.

I'm absolutely not stating that I think FB is better than FBL or the other way around - in truth I'm agnostic on the matter, as I haven't seen anything to convince me one way or the other.

--Kevin

Trex 700N, Trex 600ESP, Trex 500, Trex 450Pro

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 10:45 PM  8 years agoPost 15
Terrabit

rrElite Veteran

Seattle, WA - USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

So ... you're talking out the side of your neck challenging the first hand experience of countless others? Whatever dude! Keep living in your little illusion.

Your little point is less than useless. If you don't know what you're talking about, why bother trying to convince someone you're right? I'm certain you could find better ways to utilize your time.

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 10:56 PM  8 years agoPost 16
jones007

rrApprentice

Monterey, CA - USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

My point is that I don't own the hardware to measure the performance in a reasonably scientific way, but I'm sure that many people who post here, that converted a FB heli to a FBL heli do, and I'm asking one of them to capture a few data sets and share.

If you look around on the other forums, you'll find similar requests by me and others, and to-date, I have not found anyone willing to take the time to record and post the data, so all we see are claims like yours that if we try it, we'll know. We'll that would be fine if I didn't have to invest $500+ dollars to give it a whirl, I just thought that someone that already owned all the necessary hardware would be willing to do this. If it's not you, fine. I'm not trying to piss people off, I just want to know the truth. It's not like I'm questioning your religion or something. ;-)

--Kevin

Trex 700N, Trex 600ESP, Trex 500, Trex 450Pro

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 10:58 PM  8 years agoPost 17
Terrabit

rrElite Veteran

Seattle, WA - USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I have flown several identicle helis, nitro and electric, with and without a flybar. HUGE difference in power and feel. I don't see my self doing it again as that would require the purchase of a gyro at minimum, not to mention the time and effort. And I'm obviously already convinced.
We'll that would be fine if I didn't have to invest $500+ dollars to give it a whirl
Yet another myth! Quality head conversions are readily available for little, or if you're industrious, no cost. The electronics run from a couple hundred to $500, from which you can subtract the cost of whatever gyro you would have used with a fb setup.

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 11:01 PM  8 years agoPost 18
DougsRC

rrProfessor

Mass.

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Your little point is less than useless. If you don't know what you're talking about, why bother trying to convince someone you're right? I'm certain you could find better ways to utilize your time.
Tough crowd Let's see if we can make this hobby---- less Fun

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 11:04 PM  8 years agoPost 19
Band1086

rrElite Veteran

Kennewick, Wa. USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Control latency always leads to increased drag, and eventually instability.
That statement among others you've made seems absurd. Where is your quantitative data to back that up? You made this statement like it's absolute fact...evidence please? You seem to be speaking based on rumors and second or third hand information. That definitely makes for misinformation for people for people who are actually trying to learn on these forums

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-15-2010 11:05 PM  8 years agoPost 20
Terrabit

rrElite Veteran

Seattle, WA - USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Tough crowd Let's see if we can make this hobby---- less Fun
I may have been a bit terse in my response. I appologize. Misinformation ticks me off. And there is no shortage of it. I'll go back to cracking jokes because that is more fun ... for me anyway.

Peace out!

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
WATCH
 4 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2      3     NEXT    >> ] 2773 views POST REPLY
HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › How much of a performance improvement does flybarless setup give you?
 Print TOPIC  Make Suggestion 

 13  Topic Subscribe

Friday, December 14 - 7:55 pm - Copyright © 2000-2018 RunRyder   EMAILEnable Cookies

The RC discussion world needs to consolidate. RR is now one choice for that. Its software is cutting edge. It hosts on-topic advertising. Help RR increase traffic buy making suggestions, posting in RR's new areas (sites) and by spreading the word.

The RunRyder Difference

• Category system to allow Rep/Vendor postings.
• Classifieds with sold (hidden) category.
• Classifieds with separate view new.
• Answer PMs offsite via email reply.
• Member gallery photos with advanced scripting.
• Gallery photo viewer integrated into postings.
• Highly refined search with advanced back end.
• Hosts its own high end fast response servers.
• Hosts thousands of HD event coverage videos.
• Rewrote entire code base with latest technology.
• No off-topic (annoying) click bait advertising.
Login Here
 New Subscriptions 
 Buddies Online