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10-17-2010 04:28 AM  8 years agoPost 581
Dennis (RIP)

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Yes, for the love of God, please shut it down.

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10-17-2010 05:26 AM  8 years agoPost 582
outhouse

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I beg to differ

this is not a matter of who you talk to, this is a matter of who has researched more material with a open mind.

This is intellegence meets faith

this is reality expanding its grasp on humanity.

this is proof that christianity is fiction, ALL OF IT! and this counts all other religions as well.

christians can and do go after science but they cant go after history and anyone who really looks at history finds the truth

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10-17-2010 05:27 AM  8 years agoPost 583
outhouse

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LYING FOR THE CHURCH

The editing and formation of the Bible came from members of the early Christian Church. Since the fathers of the Church possessed the scriptoria and determined what would appear in the Bible, there occurred plenty of opportunity and motive to change, modify, or create texts that might bolster the position of the Church or the members of the Church themselves.

The orthodox Church also fought against competing Christian cults. Irenaeus, who determined the inclusion of the four (now canonical) gospels, wrote his infamous book, "Against the Heresies." According to Romer, "Irenaeus' great book not only became the yardstick of major heresies and their refutations, the starting-point of later inquisitions, but simply by saying what Christianity was not it also, in a curious inverted way, became a definition of the orthodox faith." [Romer] If a Jesus did exist, perhaps eyewitness writings got burnt along with them because of their heretical nature. We will never know.

In attempting to salvage the Bible the respected revisionist and scholar, Bruce Metzger has written extensively on the problems of the New Testament. In his book, "The Text of the New Testament-- Its Transmission, Corruption and Restoration, Metzger addresses: Errors arising from faulty eyesight; Errors arising from faulty hearing; Errors of the mind; Errors of judgment; Clearing up historical and geographical difficulties; and Alterations made because of doctrinal considerations. [Metzger]

The Church had such power over people, that to question the Church could result in death. Regardless of what the Church claimed, most people simply believed what their priests told them.

In letter LII To Nepotian, Jerome writes about his teacher, Gregory of Nazianzus when he asked him to explain a phrase in Luke, Nazianzus evaded his request by saying “I will tell you about it in church, and there, when all the people applaud me, you will be forced against your will to know what you do not know at all. For, if you alone remain silent, every one will put you down for a fool." Jerome responds with, "There is nothing so easy as by sheer volubility to deceive a common crowd or an uneducated congregation."

In the 5th century, John Chrysostom in his "Treatise on the Priesthood, Book 1," wrote, "And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived."

Ignatius Loyola of the 16th century wrote in his Spiritual Exercises: "To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it"

Martin Luther opined: "What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church … a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."

With such admission to accepting lies, the burning of heretical texts, Bible errors and alterations, how could any honest scholar take any book from the New Testament as absolute, much less using extraneous texts that support a Church's intransigent and biased position, as reliable evidence?

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10-17-2010 05:33 AM  8 years agoPost 584
outhouse

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THEN WHY THE MYTH OF JESUS?

Some people actually believe that just because so much voice and ink has spread the word of a character named Jesus throughout history, that this must mean that he actually lived. This argument simply does not hold. The number of people who believe or write about something or the professional degrees they hold say nothing at all about fact. Facts derive out of evidence, not from hearsay, not from hubris scholars, and certainly not from faithful believers. Regardless of the position or admiration held by a scholar, believer, or priest, if he or she cannot support a hypothesis with good evidence, then it can only remain a hypothesis.

While the possibility exists that an actual Jesus lived, a more likely possibility reveals that a mythology could have arrived totally out of earlier mythologies. Although we have no evidence for a historical Jesus, we certainly have many accounts for the mythologies of the Middle East and Egypt during the first century and before. Many of these stories appear similar to the Christ saviour story.

Just before and during the first century, the Jews had prophesied about an upcoming Messiah based on Jewish scripture. Their beliefs influenced many of their followers. We know that powerful beliefs can create self-fulfilling prophesies, and surely this proved just as true in ancient times. It served as a popular dream expressed in Hebrew Scripture for the promise of an "end-time" with a savior to lead them to the promised land. Indeed, Roman records show executions of several would-be Messiahs, (but not a single record mentions a Jesus). Many ancients believed that there could come a final war against the "Sons of Darkness"-- the Romans.

This then could very well have served as the ignition and flame for the future growth of Christianity. We know that the early Christians lived within pagan communities. Jewish scriptural beliefs coupled with the pagan myths of the time give sufficient information about how such a religion could have formed. Many of the Hellenistic and pagan myths parallel so closely to the alleged Jesus that to ignore its similarities means to ignore the mythological beliefs of history. Dozens of similar savior stories propagated the minds of humans long before the alleged life of Jesus. Virtually nothing about Jesus "the Christ" came to the Christians as original or new.

For example, the religion of Zoroaster, founded circa 628-551 B.C.E. in ancient Persia, roused mankind in the need for hating a devil, the belief of a paradise, last judgment and resurrection of the dead. Mithraism, an offshoot of Zoroastrianism probably influenced early Christianity. The Magi described in the New Testament appears as Zoroastrian priests. Note the word "paradise" came from the Persian pairidaeza.

Osiris, Hercules, Mithra, Hermes, Prometheus, Perseus and others compare to the Christian myth. According to Patrick Campbell of The Mythical Jesus, all served as pre-Christian sun gods, yet all allegedly had gods for fathers, virgins for mothers; had their births announced by stars; got born on the solstice around December 25th; had tyrants who tried to kill them in their infancy; met violent deaths; rose from the dead; and nearly all got worshiped by "wise men" and had allegedly fasted for forty days. [McKinsey, Chapter 5]

The pre-Christian cult of Mithra had a deity of light and truth, son of the Most High, fought against evil, presented the idea of the Logos. Pagan Mithraism mysteries had the burial in a rock tomb, resurrection, sacrament of bread & water (Eucharist), the marking on the forehead with a mystic mark, the symbol of the Rock, the Seven Spirits and seven stars, all before the advent of Christianity.

Even Justin Martyr recognized the analogies between Christianity and Paganism. To the Pagans, he wrote: "When we say that the Word, who is first born of God, was produced without sexual union, and that he, Jesus Christ, our teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven; we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter (Zeus)." [First Apology, ch. xxi]

Virtually all of the mythical accounts of a savior Jesus have parallels to past pagan mythologies which existed long before Christianity and from the Jewish scriptures that we now call the Old Testament. The accounts of these myths say nothing about historical reality, but they do say a lot about believers, how they believed, and how their beliefs spread.

In the book The Jesus Puzzle, the biblical scholar, Earl Doherty, presents not only a challenge to the existence of an historical Jesus but reveals that early pre-Gospel Christian documents show that the concept of Jesus sprang from non-historical spiritual beliefs of a Christ derived from Jewish scripture and Hellenized myths of savior gods. Nowhere do any of the New Testament epistle writers describe a human Jesus, including Paul. None of the epistles mention a Jesus from Nazareth, an earthly teacher, or as a human miracle worker. Nowhere do we find these writers quoting Jesus. Nowhere do we find them describing any details of Jesus' life on earth or his followers. Nowhere do we find the epistle writers even using the word "disciple" (they of course use the term "apostle" but the word simply means messenger, as Paul saw himself). Except for a few well known interpolations, Jesus always gets presented as a spiritual being that existed before all time with God, and that knowledge of Christ came directly from God or as a revelation from the word of scripture. Doherty writes, "Christian documents outside the Gospels, even at the end of the first century and beyond, show no evidence that any tradition about an earthly life and ministry of Jesus were in circulation."

Furthermore, the epistle to the Hebrews (8:4), makes it explicitly clear that the epistle writer did not believe in a historical Jesus: "If He [Jesus] had been on earth, He would not be a priest."

Did the Christians copy (or steal) the pagan ideas directly into their own faith? Not necessarily. They may have gotten many of their beliefs through syncretism or through independent hero archetype worship, innate to human story telling. If gotten through syncretism, pagans could very well have have influenced the first Christians, especially the ideas of resurrection, beliefs about good and evil, and virgin births. In my opinion, this appears the most likely, considering the close parallel of these beliefs to pre-Christian pagan beliefs. If gotten through independent means, it still says nothing about Christian originality because we know that pagans had beliefs about resurrected gods, long before Christianity existed. The hero archetypes still exist in our story telling today. As one personal example, as a boy I used to read and collect Superman comics. It never occurred to me at the time to see Superman as a Christ-figure, or any other savior story. Yet, if you analyze Superman and Jesus stories, they have uncanny similarities. In fact the move Superman Returns explicitly tells the Superman story through a savior's point of view without once mentioning Jesus, yet Christians would innately know the connection. Other movies like Star Wars, Phenomenon, K-PAX, The Matrix, etc. also covertly tell savior stories. So whether the first Christians borrowed or independently came up with a savior story makes no difference whatsoever. The point here only aims to illustrate that Christians did not originate the savior story.

The early historical documents can prove nothing about an actual Jesus but they do show an evolution of belief derived from varied and diverse concepts of Christianity, starting from a purely spiritual form of Christ to a human figure who embodied that spirit, as portrayed in the Gospels. The New Testament stories appears as an eclectic hodgepodge of Jewish, Hellenized and pagan stories compiled by pietistic believers to appeal to an audience for their particular religious times.

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10-17-2010 05:39 AM  8 years agoPost 585
Dennis (RIP)

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Please shut this thread down.

We have a resident Anti Christ.

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10-17-2010 06:02 AM  8 years agoPost 586
outhouse

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thats right run!

run! as fast as you can from the truth!

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10-17-2010 06:03 AM  8 years agoPost 587
outhouse

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NON-CHRISTIAN SOURCES

Virtually all other claims of Jesus come from sources outside of Christian writings. Devastating to the claims of Christians, however, comes from the fact that all of these accounts come from authors who lived after the alleged life of Jesus. Since they did not live during the time of the hypothetical Jesus, none of their accounts serve as eyewitness evidence.

Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, lived as the earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus. Although many scholars think that Josephus' short accounts of Jesus (in Antiquities) came from interpolations perpetrated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius), Josephus' birth in 37 C.E. (well after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus), puts him out of range of an eyewitness account. Moreover, he wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E., after the first gospels got written! Therefore, even if his accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his information could only serve as hearsay.

Pliny the Younger (born: 62 C.E.) His letter about the Christians only shows that he got his information from Christian believers themselves. Regardless, his birth date puts him out of range as an eyewitness account.

Tacitus, the Roman historian's birth year at 64 C.E., puts him well after the alleged life of Jesus. He gives a brief mention of a "Christus" in his Annals (Book XV, Sec. 44), which he wrote around 109 C.E. He gives no source for his material. Although many have disputed the authenticity of Tacitus' mention of Jesus, the very fact that his birth happened after the alleged Jesus and wrote the Annals during the formation of Christianity, shows that his writing can only provide us with hearsay accounts.

Suetonius, a Roman historian, born in 69 C.E., mentions a "Chrestus," a common name. Apologists assume that "Chrestus" means "Christ" (a disputable claim). But even if Seutonius had meant "Christ," it still says nothing about an earthly Jesus. Just like all the others, Suetonius' birth occurred well after the purported Jesus. Again, only hearsay.

Talmud: Amazingly some Christians use brief portions of the Talmud, (a collection of Jewish civil a religious law, including commentaries on the Torah), as evidence for Jesus. They claim that Yeshu in the Talmud refers to Jesus. However, this Yeshu, according to scholars depicts a disciple of Jehoshua Ben-Perachia at least a century before the alleged Christian Jesus or it may refer to Yeshu ben Pandera, a teacher of the 2nd centuy CE. Regardless of how one interprets this, the Palestinian Talmud didn't come into existence until the 3rd and 5th century C.E., and the Babylonian Talmud between the 3rd and 6th century C.E., at least two centuries after the alleged crucifixion. At best it can only serve as a controversial Christian or Jewish legend; it cannot possibly serve as evidence for a historical Jesus.

Christian apologists mostly use the above sources for their "evidence" of Jesus because they believe they represent the best outside sources. All other sources (Christian and non-Christian) come from even less reliable sources, some of which include: Mara Bar-Serapion (circa 73 C.E.), Ignatius (50 - 98? C.E.), Polycarp (69 - 155 C.E.), Clement of Rome (? - circa 160 C.E.), Justin Martyr (100 - 165 C.E.), Lucian (circa 125 - 180 C.E.), Tertullian (160 - ? C.E.), Clement of Alexandria (? - 215 C.E.), Origen (185 - 232 C.E.), Hippolytus (? - 236 C.E.), and Cyprian (? - 254 C.E.). As you can see, all these people lived well after the alleged death of Jesus. Not one of them provides an eyewitness account, all of them simply spout hearsay.

As you can see, apologist Christians embarrass themselves when they unwittingly or deceptively violate the rules of historiography by using after-the-event writings as evidence for the event itself. Not one of these writers gives a source or backs up his claims with evidential material about Jesus. Although we can provide numerous reasons why the Christian and non-Christian sources prove spurious, and argue endlessly about them, we can cut to the chase by simply determining the dates of the documents and the birth dates of the authors. It doesn't matter what these people wrote about Jesus, an author who writes after the alleged happening and gives no detectable sources for his material can only give example of hearsay. All of these anachronistic writings about Jesus could easily have come from the beliefs and stories from Christian believers themselves. And as we know from myth, superstition, and faith, beliefs do not require facts or evidence for their propagation and circulation. Thus we have only beliefs about Jesus' existence, and nothing more.

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10-17-2010 06:20 AM  8 years agoPost 588
outhouse

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you dont believe evolution! thats not because there is a lack of evidence or the theory is not solid enough to convince you.

its because you cant think for yourself, the black fictional book tells you what to think and for the life of you, you cant imagine reality in different eyes.

you dont know the first thing about your own religion you want it vague but proclaim because of ignornace, science has made this gigantic mistake about evolution and science has it all wrong.

creationism is fiction

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10-17-2010 06:24 AM  8 years agoPost 589
steve9534

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Nonsense
The official Roman historian, Josephus, writes of Jesus. The Bible has writen accounts from at least 6 different eyewitnesses. If Pliny wrote of Him in 62, it can only be because He lived before that time, and made enough of an impression on those who saw Him that there was already a group known as Christians, Same for the others you mentioned. How many sources and references does there need to be to convince? "Scholars" can explain away anything, one needs to look for what's true. Jesus life is as well documented as any event of ancient history. steve.

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10-17-2010 06:31 AM  8 years agoPost 590
outhouse

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you owe your very life to science!

from the medicine we use to the latest equipment science has developed to save your life in a emergency.

science will save your life not a mythical god!

your current Everyday life is surrounded by science and its accomplishments!

god doesnt save lives he never has, now a doctor I see them saving lives due to science by the thousands. I havnt seen your god save a pile of dog dung.

You want science, you need science! until science as a whole which backs evolution %100 its not up for debate! all because men wrote a fictional book 2000+ years ago with stolen ideas.

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10-17-2010 06:37 AM  8 years agoPost 591
outhouse

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The official Roman historian, Josephus, writes of Jesus
do your history Steve, josephus and Pliny were born after jesuses myth was supposed to be dead/died.
Jesus life is as well documented
no steve, not one person when the myth was supposed to be alive wrote about him. Not one scribe, there is no record during his supposed life period of any sort found anywhere. it doesnt exist. surely a man so important as the bible states someone would have recorded something. it just flat doesnt exist

only after his death and the creation of christianity does the myth begin

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10-17-2010 06:45 AM  8 years agoPost 592
outhouse

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Biblical scholar L. Michael White, not himself a Jesus-myth theorist, writes that, so far as is known, Jesus did not write anything, nor did anyone who had personal knowledge of him. There is no archeological evidence of his existence. There are no contemporaneous accounts of his life or death: no eyewitness accounts, or any other kind of first-hand record. All the accounts of Jesus come from decades or centuries later; the gospels themselves all come from later times, though they may contain earlier sources or oral traditions. White writes that the earliest writings that survive are the letters of Paul of Tarsus, and they were written 20–30 years after the dates given for Jesus's death. Paul was not a companion of Jesus; nor does he ever claim to have seen Jesus.

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10-17-2010 06:50 AM  8 years agoPost 593
outhouse

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It is a significant fact that the more the mythicist (nonhistoricity of Jesus Christ) school is criticised, the stronger does it emerge. That the theologians and churchmen will attempt to retain the alleged historic foundation to the bitter end, is to be expected; but that Rationalist scholars should exhibit ill feeling towards their colleagues who maintain that Jesus is a myth, is rather disappointing.

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10-17-2010 10:45 AM  8 years agoPost 594
Spitfire1

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Im sure its already clear where I stand on religion, but I think our science is sadly lacking, I accept evolution may be correct but would not be surprised if in 10 - 20 years we realize it was actually a complete crok if sh*t.

As for science, we used to use leeches and bleed people out to cure illness, now we pump terminaly ill cancer patients full of chemicals and bombard them with radiation, and how many times has it cured cancer? how many times has it given some person an extra lousy 12 months instead of the 3 they would of had without the treatment?, and then how many of the so called "remissions" have made it past 5 years only for it to come back again worse than before?

All of the rubbish we do know about the physics of the universe is useless, where not going have lightspeed technology any time soon so why bother.

Those string theory, big bang blackhole guys would be better put to work finding a way to prevent cancer, extending lifespan and ultimately finding a way to prolong life indefinately, religion will never disapear, but in a world where death only comes in the form of a tragic accident and is not a certainty as it is now, I would suggest only a very small percentage would still choose to believe in religion, solve more pressing issues like cancer and 80 yr lifespans first then start worrying about the universe later.

Athiests frustration toward religion is in as much as, how can these people believe this stuff that to me seems so nonsensical?, surely they must be crazy and out of there minds??

My take on it is that the reason 99% of religious people choose to have faith is quite simple, it is the overwhealming fear of death and the unknown, and its also quite understandable that people do so, I would think its only the other 1% who are actually crackpots in the true sense..

So to me personaly, the philosophical question is not so much one of why do these crazy religious people believe in something that to me seems completely irrational, but why is it that I and other athiests like myself do not.

I think its a very important note to make, that if you go by the statistical numbers, its we as atheists who are the crazy ones, I would suggest the actual percentage of true non believers such as myself is likely to be much smaller than is even actually documented, its that to an athiest that is as much a puzzle as is why people believe in faith, why so many do and so few of us dont.

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10-17-2010 01:48 PM  8 years agoPost 595
greenboot

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Have you ever noticed the atheists don't go knocking on doors trying to sell their ideas? I'm tired of the churches that send people to my house on recruiting missions.

Tom

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10-17-2010 05:21 PM  8 years agoPost 596
Rev

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God
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

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10-17-2010 05:24 PM  8 years agoPost 597
Rev

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God
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

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10-17-2010 05:31 PM  8 years agoPost 598
Aaron29

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..

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10-17-2010 05:43 PM  8 years agoPost 599
outhouse

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There no proof at all the jesus lived but they believe in him whole hearted enough to kill for there beliefs

spitfire theres actually more then enough proof about evolution and it gets stronger every month with new discoverys.

Every new discovery made ties evolution into its strong foundation. In the next 20 years it is evolution that will be common taught knowledge in our schools. not a 2000 year old pac of lies.

just wondering bud, if your athiest and dont believe in evolution. Where did man come from?

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10-17-2010 05:57 PM  8 years agoPost 600
outhouse

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now we pump terminaly ill cancer patients full of chemicals and bombard them with radiation, and how many times has it cured cancer?
on patients that are terminal they are doing research trying to find out how to save more lives.

many, many people are saved now compared to the past. If you think you can give up the fight and just let people suffer you may be crazy. Cancer survivors are in the millions my friend and every year there trying to save more.

Despite your claims you cant knock science, when your heart fails and you go in for a stint or a bypass, that is science saving your life. We have a guy coming back to work after a year of kemo due to cancer and it was in his lymph nodes which is usually terminal. he owes his life to science not a god. My dad had a stroke and heart attack at 55, science saved his life and he made it another 10 years before cancer took him. early detectionis key.

heart disease is a killer and science is saving millions that a mythical god never did.

you cant deny that science has increased the quality of all of our lives over the past 40 years.
All of the rubbish we do know about the physics of the universe is useless, where not going have lightspeed technology any time soon so why bother
what did you do? wake up on the wrong side of the bed

why bother? we dont quit because we cant take big steps. we take the small ones until we get there.

science effects us all on a daily basis wether uyou believe in or not.

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