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HomeOff Topics News & Politics › God Did Create Mankind.
04-20-2011 09:30 PM  7 years agoPost 5281
gforce2011

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Wow this is a first in this thread. A creationist who doesn't live in the U.S.
Did you see the video I posted a few pages ago?
Nope, i haven't seen it yet. And i am not the first creationist to post outside the U.S if u haven't noticed.
These are 'early scientists of the modern era, not 'early scientists'. You may be surprised to find that the worlds oldest 3 universities were founded in Islamic countries, well before any of the guys you mention were born. Obviously, next to nothing was known about natural laws in those days, so such fields of science did not exist. Have a look at my posts in this thread for more info.
The thread link which u posted has no relation/irrelevant whatsoever to what u are saying here.
You may be surprised to find that the worlds oldest 3 universities were founded in Islamic countries, well before any of the guys you mention were born. Obviously, next to nothing was known about natural laws in those days, so such fields of science did not exist.
i suggest you should take a look at the Qur'an first since u posted the link of the thread. However i would not support the burning of the Qur'an as it is not like christ to do that as it is not wise to agitate people of other faiths. In addition, it is not for us to judge or condemn their actions, let Christ be the judge.
When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." John 8:7

As Jesus has already warned us

Matt. 24:23-27 At that time if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or, `There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. "So if anyone tells you, `There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, `Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

see the gospel of john.

For your information, according to the Qur'an: "Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah. Those who follow him are merciful to one another, but ruthless to unbelievers" Surah 48:29
Typical Christian propaganda. If that statement was true, then freedom of religion would not have been allowed in most Islamic societies throughout history, like it has been. Muslims would just have killed all the infidels, right?
The statement is indeed true.
It was argued that the very idea that natural laws exist was blasphemous because it denied Allah's freedom to govern the universe as he saw fit. Indeed, Muslims who might challenge the Quran with scientific thinking were considered infidels and it was obligatory for all good Muslims to kill infidels.
Many passages in the Quran exhort Muslims to hate or kill or terrorize infidels (non-Muslims) wherever they find them. See Suras 2:190-193, 2:216, 2:244, 3:56, 3:151, 4:56, 4:74, 4:76, 4:89, 4:91, 4:95, 4:104, 5:51, 5:32-38, 7:96-99, 8:12-14, 8:39, 8:60, 8:65, 9:5, 9:14, 9:23-30, 9:38-41, 9:111, 9:123, 22:18-22, 25:52, 47:4, 47:35, 48:16, 48:29, 61:4, and 66:8-10.
(Note: English translators of the Quran sometimes try to soften the true Arabic meaning of some of these passages. For example, to "fight" really means to kill in Arabic.) There are various versions of the Quran online so you can look these passages up

In fact, in the Qur'an, Surah 29:46 - Muslims are told by Allah, not to question the authority of the scriptures of the Christians, saying, "And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one;

The Gospel of Jesus and Old Testament (Torah): "Guidance and Light"

- Surah 2:87 - And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent apostles after him one after another; and We gave Isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit,

- Surah 3:48 - And He (Isa/Jesus) will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat (Torah) and the Injeel (Christian Gospel).

- Surah 3:50 - And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat (Torah) and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden t you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.

- Surah 5:44 - "Surely We revealed the Taurat (Torah/Bible Old Testament) in which was guidance and light", with it the prophets who submitted themselves....

- Surah 5:46 - And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat (Jewish Torah) and We gave him the Injeel (Christian Gospels) in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).

- Surah 5.68 - Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord;

and many more...

http://www.faithfacts.org/world-rel...vs.-islam#quran
BS. Here's a quote from your site which conflicts with that position, and is worth a laugh too.

''The evidence for Darwinian evolution is so fragmentary that it would not command any respect at all, if it were not for the fact that the evolutionists have agreed in advance to exclude all thought of intelligent design.''
That's utter nonsense. Science has discovered that we evolved from simpler lifeforms. The Bible says that man was 'created' in God's image. There's a pretty big fundamental conflict right there.
Check out this site, http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/index.html
You will probably find many of the answers that you are seeking for.

One thing to add: Christians and Catholics are not perfect, and we will never be. There is only one, who was, and is, and is to come, and His name is Jesus.

You will always find fault with us ( we admit that we are sinners) but will never find any with God, Jesus, Holy Spirit and God' word.

Whoa, didn't realize the time, about 4am now.. gotta sleep guys

God bless,
Matt

For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. 2 Tim 1:7

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04-20-2011 10:12 PM  7 years agoPost 5282
outhouse

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welcome to the coversation Matt

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04-20-2011 10:55 PM  7 years agoPost 5283
outhouse

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Check out this site, http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/index.html
You will probably find many of the answers that you are seeking for.
there are no real answers at that site.

it is filled with blatant lies and pseudoscience by religious propagandist and the site should be avoided if one wants a real answer to a question.

you dont go to a religious backed site if you want answers for science, biology and history

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04-21-2011 12:53 AM  7 years agoPost 5284
Dusty1000

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Nope, i haven't seen it yet.
The Bishop of Oxford explains that the Church of England learned that the Bible isn't literally true in around 1830, and that the congregation had accepted this by 1870 or so. Because they recognise the fact that all life on earth evolved, what that means to them, is that ''God made the world so that it could make itself.'' Therefore like the rest of us, he is utterly amazed at all this creationist stuff coming out of America these days.
And i am not the first creationist to post outside the U.S if u haven't noticed.
I don't recall another. What is his/their username(s)?
The thread link which u posted has no relation/irrelevant whatsoever to what u are saying here.
There's actually quite a lot of info there relating to advances in science made in Islamic countries.
i suggest you should take a look at the Qur'an first since u posted the link of the thread.
The other thread also contains quite a lot of info on the contents of the Quran.
For your information, according to the Qur'an: "Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah. Those who follow him are merciful to one another, but ruthless to unbelievers" Surah 48:29
Except that's not what Surah 48:29 does say. If you google that 'translation' you'll only find it on anti-Islam propaganda sites such as the one you're getting your information from. The authorised translations are here:
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/
Many passages in the Quran exhort Muslims to hate or kill or terrorize infidels (non-Muslims) wherever they find them. See Suras 2:190-193...
This isn't the place to go through all of these verses, so I'll just address the first one here, although I have already done so in the other thread I provided a link to. If you take the verse in context with the rest of the chapter, you'll find it is clearly describing a defensive war, what actions (i.e. fight back) Muslims should take when they are attacked, and the conditions that they are allowed to take those actions under. If you look up the passages in context, you will find that they don't say what these anti-Islam sites pretend they do say.

You should ask yourself why, if they want to make a point about the Quran, why they would have to lie in order to do so.
In fact, in the Qur'an, Surah 29:46 - Muslims are told by Allah, not to question the authority of the scriptures of the Christians, saying, "And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one;
Nope, look up the verse for yourself and you'll find out what it actually does say.
- Surah 2:87.... and many more...
Look them up for yourself and you'll find out they don't say what your site says they say.

Whatever the Quran does say about 'People of the Book' and 'unbelievers', it certainly isn't as bad as what the Bible says about anyone who isn't a Christian:

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Not forgetting of course that the law of the old testament still very much applies:

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
Check out this site, http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/index.html
You will probably find many of the answers that you are seeking for.
That looks like a link farm for creationist books on Amazon. I did have a look, but couldn't find anything on how creation supposedly occurred. I see it is an old earth creationist site.

Do you think that 'kinds' and people would just suddenly appear? As in, one minute there's no-one there, then the next minute a couple of adults appear out of nowhere - like in the Adam and Eve story?

Dusty

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04-21-2011 02:27 AM  7 years agoPost 5285
Fred Stone

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But how can you possibly bring into question the fact that Adam and Eve suddenly existed ! It's beyond comprehension.
A recent study suggested Eve had huge gazonkas and Adam had a nice smile (huge dick). Thank gawd, else I may have not existed and heliocentric theory may have been a myth.

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04-21-2011 03:13 AM  7 years agoPost 5286
helicopter

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Duster,
You, like dr house, are astonishing.
I'd be real careful about quoting Holy Scripture
when you have literally proven here by your writings
that you have no Idea what the Bible is all about.

I say that because the whole WORD is about the
Creation, the Fall, and the Redemption of Man
though an act of selfless sacrifice by God Himself
who came as a man to die in our place - offering any
who will but receive the GIFT, of Salvation from sin
and DEATH, by Grace through FAITH.

You don't get it.

The Miracle of Regeneration has not yet become
a reality in your soul.

You act like a smarty pants, but we see right through.

Tomorrow in Christendom, is Maunday Thursday. The DAY
Jesus was Crucified of the Cross of Calvary as atonement
for OUR SINS.

Coming in just 3 more days and nights is EASTER SUNDAY.

That's the DAY Jesus ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

Believing THIS is the only way to God and His Heaven.

Right now, today, with your espousal of knowledge, you
ain't going THERE.

Another, Hotter, place awaits.

IF you were to die tonight, where would your soul end up?

If you say you don't care, you truly are a moron.

If you say you are going to join your buddies and party
like hell in hell. You are an idiot.

Psalm 14:1 is for you. Get that Bible out and read that!

Stop looking at MAN.

Look UP!

Seek GOD with all your heart....

You just might find HIM.

(He's the little bearded guy on the Cross Who Died for you.)

BTW all this under the Biblical authority of the Godhead.

A Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

One last word from St. Paul just for you:

1 Corinthians 2:14
14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

Your spirit is DEAD because of SIN.

But in CHRIST all who believe will be made alive by
the Grace, Mercy, Justice of GOD, our Creator.

When you will Honor Him, HE will honor you: IN Christ.

This could be YOUR EASTER SUNDAY, at YOUR resurrection!

Please don't miss it.

I love gravity, it always keeps my feet planted when I fly!

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04-21-2011 03:35 AM  7 years agoPost 5287
outhouse

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auburn ca

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Duster,
You, like dr house, are astonishing.
thats enough out of you criminal

you have no room to talk

you started this whole mess

it needs to be addressed so we can bring religious people out of the dark and let them feast on knowledge they so proudly hide from.

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04-21-2011 04:04 AM  7 years agoPost 5288
helicopter

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dr house out, if you don't allow God to SAVE you,
you will flush thyself...

Here is what Christians Should Believe:

Orthodox Christianity, Essential Beliefs

Over the centuries, Christian leaders have agreed on certain elements that are key to the faith. While this is not necessarily all-inclusive, below is a list of the essential beliefs that are consistent with "being a Christian."

* There is one God. While there is only one God, he exists in three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Thus, these three manifestations of God exist in one divine being or essence.
* God, the Father, made everything that exists—visible and invisible—and continues to sustain it.
* Jesus Christ, is true man, and at the same time is of the same nature and essence as God the Father. As the Son of God he is truly divine. That Jesus was born of a virgin is supporting evidence of his dual nature of both man and God. He lived a perfect life while on earth, having come to suffer and die for mankind as a ransom for our sins. After he died on the cross and was buried, he came back to life on the third day after his death (was bodily resurrected), an event which had been predicted in the Bible.
* God, the Holy Spirit, is also true God and is to be worshipped and glorified as such. The Holy Spirit invites each person to partake of Christ’s blessings which are offered to us, and to experience a personal relationship with Christ. The Holy Spirit gives us the saving knowledge of Jesus, our Savior, so that we can trust and believe and rejoice in Him. The Holy Spirit also comforts, guides, and sustains us in the faith.
* God is perfectly holy and perfectly just. Mankind, from Adam on, has separated himself from God by sin and thus deserves death and eternity in hell. Nobody is good enough to meet God's standard of holiness.
* Salvation is the condition of being saved from sin, death, and God's wrath. Because Jesus lived a perfect life in our stead, by his crucifixion to take the punishment for our sins, and by overcoming death in his bodily resurrection—believers can confidently look forward to eternal life in heaven. Salvation is given by grace through a living faith in Christ; that is, it is a free gift from God to all who repent and trust in Christ as Savior and Master.
* Baptism is a means, an instrument of, or a sign of acceptance of God's grace.
* Jesus' own teaching and his attitude toward the total truthfulness and supreme authority of the Bible—God's inspired Word—make the Scriptures our final rule for faith and practice.
* All believers in Christ are members of one spiritual body, the Church.

Got Milk?

I love gravity, it always keeps my feet planted when I fly!

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04-21-2011 04:14 AM  7 years agoPost 5289
outhouse

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As the Son of God he is truly divine
he was a traveling hellenistic jewish teacher who was mentally ill.

he was only found to be divine when after 325 years AD, a bunch of religious whack jobs voted on just how divine he was. this is a fact. Man only decided how divine jebus was.

the jews who created the god figure have never thought of jebus as the fortold deity.

enjoy your fiction

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04-21-2011 04:25 AM  7 years agoPost 5290
GREYEAGLE

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Just Remeber
You are only ONE prayer away ! Door never closes - always home too!

Oh Yes Forgot - Keep the greasy side down .

greyeagle

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04-21-2011 05:34 AM  7 years agoPost 5291
outhouse

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Just Remeber

You are only ONE prayer away ! Door never closes - always home too!

Oh Yes Forgot - Keep the greasy side down

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04-21-2011 06:22 AM  7 years agoPost 5292
gforce2011

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The Bishop of Oxford explains that the Church of England learned that the Bible isn't literally true in around 1830, and that the congregation had accepted this by 1870 or so. Because they recognise the fact that all life on earth evolved, what that means to them, is that ''God made the world so that it could make itself.'' Therefore like the rest of us, he is utterly amazed at all this creationist stuff coming out of America these days.
Manuscript Evidence for the Bible
Reliability of the New Testament as Historical Documents

"Astounding" number of ancient manuscripts extant: 5,000 Greek manuscripts, 10,000 Latin and 9,000 other--totaling over 24,000 manuscript copies or portions of the New Testament. These are dated from 100 to 300 years after the originals. (There are no original manuscripts ["autographs"] extant, but the number and similarity of copies allows scholars to reconstruct the originals.)

Early fragments: John Ryland manuscript 130 A.D. in Egypt; Bodmer manuscript containing most of John's gospel 150-200 A.D.; Magdalen fragment from Mat. 26 believed by some to be within a few years of Jesus' death; Gospel fragments found among the Dead Sea Scrolls dated as early as 50 A.D.

Comparison with other ancient documents (available copies versus the originals):

Caesar—10 copies—1000 year gap

Tacitus—20 copies—1000 year gap

Plato—7 copies—1200 year gap

F. F. Bruce: "There is no body of ancient literature in the world which enjoys such a wealth of good attestation as the New Testament."

William F. Albright: "Thanks to the Qumran discoveries, the New Testament proves to be in fact what it was formerly believed to be: the teaching of Christ and his immediate followers circa.25 and circa. 80 AD."

Quotations from Early Church Fathers:

Clement of Rome (a disciple of the apostles) cited Matthew, John, and 1 Corinthians in 95 to 97 A.D. Ignatius (who knew the apostles well) referred to six Pauline Epistles in about 110. Polycarp (disciple of apostle John) quoted from all four Gospels, Acts, and most of Paul's Epistles from 110 to 150. Taitian's harmony of the Four Gospels completed in 160 A.D. Irenaeus (who apparently heard the apostles) quoted from Matthew, John, Acts, and 1 Corinthians in 160 A.D.

Of the four Gospels alone, there are 19,368 citations by the church fathers from the late first century on. Even if we had no manuscripts, virtually the entire New Testament could be reconstructed from these quotations. This argues powerfully that the Gospels were in existence before the end of the first century, while some eyewitnesses (including John) were still alive.

Primary Source Value

Testimony of the New Testament authors themselves: Luke 1:1-3, 3:1, John 21:24, Acts 26:24-26, 2 Peter 1:16, 1 John 1:3.

Both liberal and conservative scholars in recent years have moved to the view that ALL of the New Testament was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. (Liberal scholar John A. T. Robinson's book Redating the New Testament. Conservative scholar Kenneth Gentry's book Before Jesusalem Fell). One reason for their argument for early date for the New Testament is because there is no mention in the past tense of the devastating destruction of Jesusalem and the temple anywhere in the New Testament, and there is consistent mention of it still standing (even in the book of Revelation). Though the Gospels include prophecies of such a destruction, they are prophetic stock-in-trade. These prophesies lack any details that certainly would have been added if written after this important historical event.

Substantial other evidences of New Testament being written between 40 and 60 A.D. See Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics.

Reliability of the Old Testament

Jewish scholars performed "unbelievable" care in copying and preserving Scripture.

The Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in 1947 are dated from the third century B.C. to the first century A.D. These manuscripts predate by 1000 years the previous oldest manuscripts. They represent every Old Testament book except Esther (as well as non-biblical writings). There is word for word identity in more than 95% of the cases, and the 5% variation consists mostly of slips of the pen and spelling.

Archaeological and External Evidence for the Bible

Archeology consistently confirms the Bible!
Archaeology and the Old Testament

Ebla tablets—discovered in 1970s in Northern Syria. Documents written on clay tablets from around 2300 B.C. demonstrate that personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine. In use in Ebla was the name "Canaan," a name critics once said was not used at that time and was used incorrectly in the early chapters of the Bible. The tablets refer to all five "cities of the plain" mentioned in Genesis 14, previously assumed to have been mere legends.

Greater proportion of Egyptian words in the Pentateuch (first five books) than in rest of the Old Testament. Accurate Egyptian names: Potiphar (Gen.39), Zaphenath-Paneah (Joseph's Egyptian name, Gen. 41:45), Asenath (Gen.41:45), On (Gen. 41:45), Rameses (Gen. 47:11), Oithom (Exodus 1:11).

Finds in Egypt are consistent with the time, place, and other details of biblical accounts of the Israelites in Egypt. These include housing and tombs that could have been of the Israelites, as well as a villa and tomb that could have been Joseph's.

Confounding earlier skeptics, but confirming the Bible, an important discovery was made in Egypt in 1896. A tablet—the Merneptah Stela—was found that mentions Israel. (Merneptah was the pharaoh that ruled Egypt in 1212-1202 B.C.) The context of the stela indicates that Israel was a significant entity in the late 13th century B.C.

The Hittites were once thought to be a biblical legend, until their capital and records were discovered in Turkey.

Crucial find in Nuzi (northeastern Iraq), an entire cache of Hittite legal documents from 1400 B.C. Confirms many details of Genesis, Deuteronomy, such as: (a) siring of legitimate children through handmaidens, (b) oral deathbed will as binding, (c) the power to sell one's birthright for relatively trivial property (Jacob & Esau), (d) need for family idols, such as Rachel stole from Laban, to secure inheritance, (e) form of the covenant in Deuteronomy exactly matches the form of suzerainty treaties between Hittite emperors and vassal kings.

Walls of Jericho—discovery in 1930s by John Garstang. The walls fell suddenly, and outwardly (unique), so Israelites could clamber over the ruins into the city (Joshua 6:20).

In 1986, scholars identified an ancient seal belonging to Baruch, son of Neriah, a scribe who recorded the prophecies of Jeremiah (Jer. 45:11).

In 1990, Harvard researchers unearthed a silver-plated bronze calf figurine reminiscent of the huge golden calf mentioned in the book of Exodus.

In 1993, archaeologists uncovered a 9th century B.C. inscription at Tel Dan. The words carved into a chunk of basalt refer to the "House of David" and the "King of Israel." And the Bible's version of Israelite history after the reign of David's son, Solomon, is believed to be based on historical fact because it is corroborated by independent account of Egyptian and Assyrian inscriptions.

It was once claimed there was no Assyrian king named Sargon as recorded in Isaiah 20:1, because this name was not known in any other record. Then, Sargon's palace was discovered in Iraq. The very event mentioned in Isaiah 20, his capture of Ashdod, was recorded in the palace walls! Even more, fragments of a stela (a poetic eulogy) memorializing the victory were found at Ashdod itself.

Another king who was in doubt was Belshazzar, king of Babylon, named in Daniel 5. The last king of Babylon was Nabonidus according to recorded history. Tablet was found showing that Belshazzar was Nabonidus' son.

The ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah have been discovered southeast of the Dead Sea. Evidence at the site seems consistent with the biblical account: "Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." The destruction debris was about 3 feet thick and buildings were burned from fires that started on the rooftops. Geologist Frederick Clapp theorizes that that pressure from an earthquake could have spewed out sulfur-laden bitumen (similar to asphalt) known to be in the area through the fault line upon which the cities rest. The dense smoke reported by Abraham is consistent with a fire from such material, which could have ignited by a spark or ground fire.

Archaeology and the New Testament

The New Testament mentions specific individuals, places, and various official titles of local authorities, confirmed by recent archeology. Luke sites exact titles of officials. (Titles varied from city to city so they are easily checked for accuracy.) Lysanias the Tetrarch in Abilene (Luke 3:1)—verified by inscription dated 14-29 A.D. Erastus, city treasurer of Corinth (Romans 16:23)—verified by pavement inscription. Gallio—proconsul of Achaia (Greece) in A.D. 51 (Acts 18:12). Politarchs ("city ruler" in Thessalonica (Acts 17:6). Chief Man of the Island on Malta (Acts 28:7). Stone Pavement at Pilate's headquarters (John 19:13)—discovered recently. Pool at Bethesda— discovered in 1888. Many examples of silver shrines to Artemis found (Acts 19:28). Inscription confirms the title of the city as "Temple Warden of Artemis". Account of Paul's sea voyage in Acts is "one of the most instructive documents for the knowledge of ancient seamanship."

Census of Luke 1. Census began under Augustus approximately every 14 years: 23-22 B.C., 9-8 B.C., 6 A.D. There is evidence of enrollment in 11-8 B.C. in Egyptian papyri.

Problem: Historian Josephus puts Quirinius as governor in Syria at 6 A.D. Solution: Recent inscription confirms that Quirinius served as governor in 7 B. C. (in extraordinary, military capacity).

Problem: Herod's kingdom was not part of the Roman Empire at the time, so there would not have been a census. Solution: it was a client kingdom. Augustus treated Herod as subject (Josephus). Parallel—a census took place in the client kingdom of Antiochus in eastern Asia Minor under Tiberius.

Enrollment in hometown? Confirmed by edict of Vibius Maximus, Roman prefect of Egypt, in 104 A.D. "...it is necessary for all who are for any cause whatsoever way from their administrative divisions to return home to comply with the customary ordinance of enrollment."

Opinion of Sir William Ramsay, one of the outstanding Near Eastern archeologists: "Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy; he is possessed of the true historic sense; he fixes his mind on the idea and plan that rules in the evolution of history, and proportions the scale of his treatment to the importance of each incident. He seizes the important and critical events and shows their true nature at greater length...In short, this author should be placed among the very greatest of historians."

Diggers recently uncovered an ossuary (repository for bones) with the inscription "Joseph Son of Caiaphas." This marked the first archaeological evidence that the high priest Caiaphas was a real person. According to the gospels, Caiaphas presided at the Sanhedrin's trial of Jesus.

External References to Jesus and the Christian Church.

Josephus. Born to priestly family in A.D. 37. Commanded Jewish troops in Galilee during rebellion. Surrendered, and earned favor of Emperor Vespasian. Wrote 20 books of Antiquities of the Jews. Refers to John the Baptist (killed by Herod) and to James, the brother of Jesus (condemned to death by stoning by the Sanhedrin). He referred to Jesus in his Antiquities 18:63. The standard text of Josephus reads as follows:

"About this time lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was the achiever of extraordinary deeds and was a teacher of those who accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When he was indicted by the principal men among us and Pilate condemned him to be crucified, those who had come to love him originally did not cease to do so; for he appeared to them on the third day restored to life, as the prophets of the Deity had foretold these and countless other marvelous things about him, and the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day." (Josephus—The Essential Works, P. L. Maier ed./trans.).

Although this passage is so worded in the Josephus manuscripts as early as the third-century church historian Eusebius, scholars have long suspected a Christian interpolation, since Josephus could hardly have believed Jesus to be the Messiah or in his resurrection and have remained, as he did, a non-Christian Jew. In 1972, however, Professor Schlomo Pines of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem announced his discovery of a different manuscript tradition of Josephus’s writings in the tenth-century Melkite historian Agapius, which reads as follows:

"At this time there was a wise man called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. Many people among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have reported wonders. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day."

Here, clearly, is language that a Jew could have written without conversion to Christianity. (Schlomo Pines, An Arabic Version of the Testimonium Flavianum and its Implications [Jerusalem: Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities, 1971.])

According to Dr. Paul Maier, professor of ancient history, "Scholars fall into three basic camps regarding Antiquities 18:63: 1) The original passage is entirely authentic—a minority position; 2) it is entirely a Christian forgery—a much smaller minority position; and 3) it contains Christian interpolations in what was Josephus’s original, authentic material about Jesus—the large majority position today, particularly in view of the Agapian text (immediately above) which shows no signs of interpolation. Josephus must have mentioned Jesus in authentic core material at 18:63 since this passage is present in all Greek manuscripts of Josephus, and the Agapian version accords well with his grammar and vocabulary elsewhere. Moreover, Jesus is portrayed as a 'wise man' [sophos aner], a phrase not used by Christians but employed by Josephus for such personalities as David and Solomon in the Hebrew Bible. Furthermore, his claim that Jesus won over “many of the Greeks” is not substantiated in the New Testament, and thus hardly a Christian interpolation but rather something that Josephus would have noted in his own day. Finally, the fact that the second reference to Jesus at Antiquities 20:200, which follows, merely calls him the Christos [Messiah] without further explanation suggests that a previous, fuller identification had already taken place. Had Jesus appeared for the first time at the later point in Josephus’s record, he would most probably have introduced a phrase like “…brother of a certain Jesus, who was called the Christ.”

Early Gentile writers, referred to by Christian apologists in 2nd century.

Thallus—wrote a history of Greece and Asia Minor in A.D. 52. Julius Africanus (221 AD), commenting on Thallus, said: "Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away the darkness [during the crucifixion] as an eclipse of the sun—unreasonably, as it seems to me [since the Passover took place during a full moon.]"

Official Roman records of the census, and Pontius Pilate's official report to the Emperor. Justin Martyr wrote his "Defense of Christianity" to Emperor Antonius Pius, referred him to Pilate's report, preserved in the archives. Tertullian, writing to Roman officials, writes with confidence that records of the Luke 1 census can still be found.

Roman historians
Tacitus—Greatest Roman historian, born 52 A.D., wrote a history of the reign of Nero in 110 A.D. "...Christus, from whom they got their name, had been executed by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate when Tiberias was emperor; and the pernicious superstition was checked for a short time only to break out afresh, not only in Judea, the home of the plague, but in Rome itself, .. " (Annals 15:44)

Suetonius—AD. 120. In his Life of Claudius: "As the Jews were making disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome."

Pliny the Younger—Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, wrote the emperor in A.D. 112 about the sect of Christians, who were in "the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day, before it was light, when they sang an anthem to Christ as God."

There are also prophetic and statistical evidence which proves why the Bible is Trustworthy (M. A. P. S.)
I don't recall another. What is his/their username(s)?
G Steyn...I don't quite understand why u are asking this question. Does it matter?
There's actually quite a lot of info there relating to advances in science made in Islamic countries.
advances ? when i google advances in science made in Islamic countries, all i see is why has muslim world made no contribution to science, why does muslim world lag in science, etc. Why was there an significant decline in scientific achievement sometime after the fifteenth century and why were there no scientific and industrial revolutions in the Islamic world?
Except that's not what Surah 48:29 does say. If you google that 'translation' you'll only find it on anti-Islam propaganda sites such as the one you're getting your information from. The authorised translations are here:
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/
29. Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves. You see them bowing falling down prostrate, seeking reward from Allah and acceptance. The mark of them is on their faces from the traces of prostration. This is their description in the Tawrah. But their description in the Injil (Arabic name for the original Gospel of Jesus) is like a seed which sends forth its shoot, then makes it strong, and becomes thick and it stands straight on its stem, delighting the sowers, that He may enrage the disbelievers with them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward

taken from your site :
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/pri...sts.asp?TID=783

That is what the Surah 48:29 say exactly. Taken from the authorized translations which u posted the link.
This isn't the place to go through all of these verses, so I'll just address the first one here, although I have already done so in the other thread I provided a link to. If you take the verse in context with the rest of the chapter, you'll find it is clearly describing a defensive war, what actions (i.e. fight back) Muslims should take when they are attacked, and the conditions that they are allowed to take those actions under. If you look up the passages in context, you will find that they don't say what these anti-Islam sites pretend they do say.

You should ask yourself why, if they want to make a point about the Quran, why they would have to lie in order to do so.
What do u mean by this isn't the place to go through? Are u trying hide the facts? And they are not lying, as the bible states:

Leviticus 19:11, "Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another."

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour" (Exodus 20:16)
Psalms 31:6, "I have hated them that regard lying vanities: but I trust in the LORD."

Psalms 31:18, "Let the lying lips be put to silence;"

Psalms 40:4, "Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies."

Psalms 52:2-4, "Thy tongue deviseth mischiefs; like a sharp razor, working deceitfully. Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah. Thou lovest all devouring words, O thou deceitful tongue."

Psalms 58:3, "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Psalms 59:12, "For the sin of their mouth and the words of their lips let them even be taken in their pride: and for cursing and lying which they speak."

Psalms 62:3-4, "… ye shall be slain all of you…they delight in lies: they bless with their mouth, but they curse inwardly."

Psalms 63:11, "...the mouth of them that speak lies shall be stopped."

Psalms 101:7, "He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight."

Psalms 109:2, "For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue."

Psalms 119:29, "Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously."

Psalms 119:69, "The proud have forged a lie against me: but I will keep thy precepts with my whole heart."

Psalms 119:163, "I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love."

Psalms 120:2, "Deliver my soul, O LORD, from lying lips, and from a deceitful tongue."

Proverbs 6:16-19, "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

Proverbs 8:7, "For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips."

Proverbs 10:18, "He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool."

Proverbs 12:19, "The lip of truth shall be established for ever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment."

Proverbs 12:22, "Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight."

Proverbs 13:5, "A righteous man hateth lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh to shame."

Proverbs 14:5, "A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies."

Proverbs 14:25, "A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful witness speaketh lies."

Proverbs 17:4, "A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; and a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue."

Proverbs 17:7, "Excellent speech becometh not a fool: much less do lying lips a prince."

Proverbs 19:5, "A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape."

Proverbs 19:9, "A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish."

Proverbs 19:22, "The desire of a man is his kindness: and a poor man is better than a liar."

Proverbs 21:6, "The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death."

Proverbs 26:28, "A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin."

Proverbs 29:12, "If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked."

Proverbs 30:6, "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."

Proverbs 30:8, "Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:"
Look them up for yourself and you'll find out they don't say what your site says they say.

Whatever the Quran does say about 'People of the Book' and 'unbelievers', it certainly isn't as bad as what the Bible says about anyone who isn't a Christian:

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
The exact verse:
that scoundrels among you are leading their fellow citizens astray by saying, ‘Let us go worship other gods’—gods you have not known before. 14 In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find that the report is true and such a detestable act has been committed among you, 15 you must attack that town and completely destroy[a] all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. 16 Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the open square and burn it. Burn the entire town as a burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. 17 Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a large nation, just as he swore to your ancestors.

18 “The Lord your God will be merciful only if you listen to his voice and keep all his commands that I am giving you today, doing what pleases him.

The book of Isaiah is from the Old testament and the New testament is Jesus. The Old Testament lays the foundation for the teachings and events found in the New Testament. The New Testament is only completely understood when it is seen as a fulfillment of the events, characters, laws, sacrificial system, covenants, and promises of the Old Testament

the Old Testament lays the foundation for, and was meant to prepare the Israelites for, the coming of the Messiah who would sacrifice Himself for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). The New Testament shares the life of Jesus Christ and then looks back on what He did and how we are to respond to His gift of eternal life and live our lives in gratitude for all He has done for us (Romans 12). Both testaments reveal the same holy, merciful, and righteous God who must condemn sin but who desires to bring to Himself a fallen human race of sinners through the forgiveness only possible through Christ's atoning sacrifice. In both testaments, God reveals Himself to us and how we are to come to Him through Jesus Christ. In both testaments, we find all we need for eternal life and godly living (2 Timothy 3:15-17).

For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. 2 Tim 1:7

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04-21-2011 06:23 AM  7 years agoPost 5293
gforce2011

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I agree that Most Muslims in my country are exceptionally gracious and peace-loving people. For example, Muslims point to Sura 2:256 which claims there is no compulsion in religion (compulsion), or to Sura 29:46 which says not to dispute with People of the Book (Jews and Christians) unless they do wrong. Also, Sura 41:34 which instructs that one should respond to evil with doing good deeds to the evil doer.

However, anyone who wants to commit violence has perfect justification for doing so from the Quran. While violence in the Quran is sometimes for self-defense; at other times it is open-ended.

Many passages in the Quran exhort Muslims to hate or kill or terrorize infidels (non-Muslims) wherever they find them. See Suras 2:190-193, 2:216, 2:244, 3:56, 3:151, 4:56, 4:74, 4:76, 4:89, 4:91, 4:95, 4:104, 5:51, 5:32-38, 7:96-99, 8:12-14, 8:39, 8:60, 8:65, 9:5, 9:14, 9:23-30, 9:38-41, 9:111, 9:123, 22:18-22, 25:52, 47:4, 47:35, 48:16, 48:29, 61:4, and 66:8-10. (Note: English translators of the Quran sometimes try to soften the true Arabic meaning of some of these passages. For example, to "fight" really means to kill in Arabic.) There are various versions of the Quran online so you can look these passages up. Here is a link that has some of the things that Muhammad himself said in his own words: Prophet of Doom.

There are dozens of violent prescriptive statements like those above in the Quran. Osama bin Laden in the now famous videotape discovered in Afghanistan in late 2001 is quoted as saying, "I was ordered to fight the people until they say there is no god but Allah, and his prophet Muhammad." These words echo language in the Quran itself. Such calls to violence are not mere distortions of the Quran by extreme radicals who twist the Quran for their violent ends; violence is an intergral part of Islam. Violence is Muslim doctrine. Just as many Christians are ignorant of what is actually in the Bible, many Muslims are not aware of such passages in the Quran.

Unbelievers in Islam receive persistent chastisement in the Quran. They are described as the "worst beasts in God's sight" (Sura 8:7). Muslims are instructed not to obey unbelievers (Sura 33:1) nor to make friends with them (Suras 58:14-15, 60:1, and 60:13 ). These commands open up numerous questions about the duty of Muslims who live in non-Muslim countries or work for a non-Muslim boss. Here is a link to a list of such passages: Unbelievers.

After the attempted attack by the so-called "Christmas Day (2009) Underwear Bomber" several news outlets asked how a nice Muslim boy from a wealthy family could have perpetrated such an attack. Like all Islamic terrorists, the answer comes in the above passages right out of the Quran.

But the Quran is not the only basis for violence in Islam. The example of Muhammad himself laid the foundation for violence via his deeds and commands, which are found in the hadiths. Eleven percent of the pages of the Bukhari Hadiths mention Holy War (jihad). Military jihad is a traditional and authentic part of Islam.

There are two meanings for jihad. One meaning is a personal spiritual aspect to kill sinful desires. It also means to use violence to spread the faith. Muslims are taught that those who fight and die in a jihad have their sins forgiven, and they are rewarded with a sensual and luxurious life in paradise. In fact, this is the only way they can be certain of going to heaven! See Suras 3:157-158, 3:169-171, 3:194-195, 4:74, 4:94-97, 22:58-59, 52:17-23, 56:10-38. Also see Bukhari 4:63, 72, 80, 85, 137, 175, 216, 266. So the killing of non-Muslims offers the religion's highest reward.

Another example of the violence in Islam is the way it deals with a thief. Sura 5:38 says, "And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut of their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise." Muslims do this even to their children. If a child were to steal out of hunger, a true Muslim would not show compassion and feed the child; they would sever his hand at his wrist to drive home the lessons of Allah.

Muhammad first claimed to have a vision from God in the year 610 AD. The first 13 years of his ministry were marked by peaceful preaching in the city of Mecca. During this period Muhammad seems to have been a well-meaning man who sought to oppose paganism and evil in his day.

However, in the year 623 he became a political leader in the city of Medina. With his political power came a new aggressive behavior. He attacked pagan caravans and used the sword to spread his religion.

Muhammad personally led or orchestrated 66 bloody invasions. Muhammad assassinated many of his opponents during his lifetime. One particularly famous event was his battle against the Quraiza Jews, where women and children were sold into slavery, and hundreds of captured men were executed. Even some of his own people were horrified. See Quraiza Slaughter.

There is a principle in Islam of "abrogation." This means that when there is a contradiction in the Quran, the later verses cancel out, or at least modify, earlier verses. Since the warring verses came during the Muhammad's later Medina period, they matter more than the earlier peacemaking ones. (The Suras in the Quran are in order from the longest to the shortest rather than in chronological order.)

According to Jihad Watch, "The Quran's commandments to Muslims to wage war in the name of Allah against non-Muslims are unmistakable. They are, furthermore, absolutely authoritative as they were revealed late in the Prophet's career and so cancel and replace earlier instructions to act peaceably. Without knowledge of the principle of abrogation, Westerners will continue to misread the Quran and misdiagnose Islam as a 'religion of peace'."

More on abrogation later.

The tradition of violence in Islam, which started with Muhammad, continues to this day. There is worldwide evidence that some Muslims kill or otherwise persecute people solely for being non-Muslims. This is well documented in Nigeria, Algeria, Sudan (where modern slavery is documented), Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and Malaysia.

According to the organization the Voice of the Martyrs (website http://www.persecution.com or search for Voice of the Martyrs) 160,000 Christians are killed annually because of their faith—the vast majority being killed by Muslims. If Islam claims to be a religion of peace, why is there so much oppression in every Muslim country?

Islam is anti-semitic. This is well-document—see Anti-semitism. In the audio tape series listed at the end of this essay, Abdul Saleeb quotes from a PBS Frontline documentary called "Saudi Time Bomb?" According to the program, Saudi Arabian Ministry of Education textbooks contained, as of the year 2000, a most disturbing teaching. The teaching, which is from the hadiths (Bukhari 4:176-177) as taught by Muhammad himself, is required instruction for all middle school children in Saudi Arabia. The teaching which is entitled "The Victory of Muslims Over Jews," says:

"The last hour won't come before the Muslims would fight the Jews, and the Muslims will kill them. So Jews would hide behind rocks and trees. Then the rocks and trees would call, 'Oh, Muslim. Oh, Servant of God. There is a Jew behind me. Come and kill him.' "

Included with the text is a list of principles, including the following:

"Jews and Christians are the enemies of believers. They will never approve of the Muslims. Beware of them."

Yes, the Bible has its share of violence as well, particularly in the Old Testament. For example, God instructs the Israelites coming out of Egypt to take over the land of Canaan and kill all of the inhabitants. However, there is a clear difference from Quranic violence.

The Bible makes it clear that the Canaanite society deserved it as it was thoroughly polluted by their wretchedly evil practices, including the horror of child sacrifice. (Deuteronomy 9:1-6, 12:29-31, 18:9-14; 1 Kings 14:24; 2 Chronicles 33:1-9; Ezra 9:11) Thus God used the Israelites to administer specific justice, just as he later used other societies to administer justice against the Israelites (book of Jeremiah). For more on this, see How Can a Loving God Order People Killed elsewhere on our website.

Instances such as this in the Bible are each a particular limited circumstance in time, for a particular purpose established by God. But in the Quran, we encounter general commands to kill and destroy the enemies of Islam that are applicable for all times and places and people groups.

While there is indeed violence in the Bible, one thing is certain—Jesus had a non-violent message. While some people have betrayed the peaceful message of Jesus in history, the teachings of Jesus have a consistent tone of peace, service, love, and humility. Jesus is the Prince of Peace. He never told us to kill anyone, and he disdained violence. His followers echoed this command for peace. Just a few of the numerous New Testament passages that can be cited are: Matthew 5:1-12, 5:43-44, 9:36, 19:30, 26:50-52; Mark 9:35; Luke 6:27-36, 9:54-55, 10:30-37, 22:49-51, 23:32-34; John 10:7-18, 13:1-17; Galatians 5:22-23; Philippians 2:6-8; 1 Thessalonians 5:15, and 1 Peter 3:8-9. We encourage you to read these moving passages now, and then consider what the world would be like if everyone practiced the teachings of Jesus.

With the coming of Christ to bear God's judgment, the warfare of God's people as described in the Old Testament was converted to spiritual warfare in the New Testament (Ephesians 6:10-18). In their present warfare, Christians are commanded not to curse, but to bless their personal enemies, overcoming all evil wiith good (Romans 12:17-21).

Jesus and Muhammad

There is a significant difference between the founders of the two religions. Muhammad was a sinner. In Suras 40:55, 47:19, and 48:1-2, Allah tells Muhammad to ask for forgiveness for his sins (translated frailties in some translations.) Certain sins of his are mentioned in Bukhari 1:234 and 8:794-796, which include cutting off people's limbs, burning out their eyes, and making them die of thirst. Other mention of his sins are found in Bukhari 1:19, 711, 781, 3:582, 4:319, 7:1, 8:319.

Arthur Jeffery summarizes the biography of the prophet Muhammad by Ibn Ishaq as follows: "He organizes assassinations and wholesale massacres. His career as tyrant of Medina is that of a robber chief, whose political economy consists in securing and dividing plunder."

Jerry Rassamni, author of From Jihad to Jesus, asks a reasonable question to Muslims—"If Islam's prophet, who is purported to be the model of purity for Muslims, was not in a perfect state of perfection [mutma'inaah], then what hope do other Muslims have in achieving the stage of perfection?" He further asks, "Shouldn't the fruits of a prophet of the Almighty be mercy, benevolence, and brotherhood instead of cold-blooded murder?"

Jesus, on the other hand was without sin (Acts 10:38; 1 Peter 1:19, 2:21-24; 1 John 2:1, 3:5). Even his enemies, those who betrayed and crucified him, acknowledged his perfect life (Matthew 27:3-4; Luke 23:14-15). This is an important theme in the Bible, but as we have previously mentioned, it is also confirmed in Islamic teaching (Bukhari 4:506).

Jesus lived the perfect life for us all. This gives meaning to his claim to divinity since no one else has ever achieved perfection. And his sacrificial death for our sins becomes even more poignant. The Bible says that Jesus gave his life that others may live in a very spiritual and real sense.

Modern Islam is generally considered to be free of racism. However Muhammad himself owned slaves, including a black slave named Anjasha (Bukhari 3:711, 6:435, 8:182, 8:221, 9:368, etc.). For more information, see http://www.answering-islam.org and search for "slaves." Of note, the only place where slavery is practiced today is in Islamic countries.

Slavery was common practice in the ancient world. Indeed, the Bible seems to acknowledge it as common practice. But Christianity teaches that all people are created equal (Genesis 1:27; Galatians 3:28). And the Bible specifically condemns the slave trade (1 Timothy 1:9-11).

Consider Jesus, the sinless prophet. In contrast to Muhammad,

Jesus:

was never forgiven because he had no sin,
killed no travelers in cold blood,
never told us to kill anybody,
was not prejudiced against classes of people,
did not own slaves,
did not succumb to the devil and was not bewitched (Matthew 4; Luke 4)
had high moral standards (never said forcible sex was OK),
promised to pay the penalty for your sins,
suffered and died for you and me,
has no tomb for he rose from the dead, and
is the Prince of Peace.

Muhammad by his own admission was merely a mortal man (Sura 18:110), and never performed a single miracle (Suras 3:183-184, 17:90-95, Bukhari 6:504, 9:379). The Quran itself acknowledges that Muhammad's opponents challenged him with, "Why is not an angel sent down to him?" to settle the matter of his prophethood (Sura 6:8-9). But Muhammad could not deliver. Yet Jesus performed numerous miracles before many witnesses (Mark 7:37; John 10:38, et. al.) Jesus' miracles are even confirmed in the Quran (Sura 5:110-113).

Muhammad said of himself that he could do nothing for you (Sura 11:31), but only Jesus can forgive your sins (1 John 2:1-2). (For more on miracle claims, see Geisler/Saleeb, indexed on page 335).

In addition to being powerful, Muhammad was wealthy (Bukhari 3:495), which brings into question his true motive. But Jesus was a lowly itinerant rabbi whose motive is not in question. Jesus' status is important because he could relate to the common person of any time:

He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and familiar with suffering...Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows...He was pierced for our transgression, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed...We all like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53).

We do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. (Hebrews 4:15).

Jesus' influence came not from wealth or political power, but from his words and actions that challenged people's very concept of truth (Mark 1:27; John 18:38). He said,

I am the way, the truth, and the life. (John 14:6)

Let's consider further the subject of prophecies. One thing that has convinced many of the true identity of Jesus is the evidence from fulfilled prophecies. Jesus fulfilled over 200 prophecies and implications, many made hundreds of years before his birth. While some of the prophecies are subtle, many are precise—including his place of birth, and the details of his life and death. We have listed a few of these on our website. Jesus even predicted his own death and resurrection (Matthew 16:21; Acts 10:40, etc.)!

The interested reader may want to take the time to look up these prophecies and the details of their fulfillment. It is hard to get the color and richness of Christianity without understanding this aspect of it.

Abdul Saleeb, who converted to Christianity from Islam, says the two primary things that convinced him that Jesus is more than just a prophet were first, the character of Jesus, and second, Jesus' amazing fulfillment of prophecy. This element of prophecy, which is such an important part of Christianity, has no parallel in any other religion. Jesus is the focus and fulcrum of all of history.

Why would you be a follower of Muhammad—or anyone else—when you could be a follower of Jesus, the Savior of the World?

For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. 2 Tim 1:7

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04-21-2011 06:28 AM  7 years agoPost 5294
gforce2011

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For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. 2 Tim 1:7

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04-21-2011 09:49 AM  7 years agoPost 5295
sks

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exactly WTF is going on
the producers leave the set and now some extras and actors run amok!!!

Listen, helicopter, for one thing, stop posting crap. You too gforce2011 - we don't have any lines for you at all.

and Grey, you should be rehearsing. We want you in a suit - not a bunny costume. The wardrobe department is going to get a bollocking.

outhouse, what's the matter with these actors, it's as if they're trying to make a comedy.

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04-21-2011 12:04 PM  7 years agoPost 5296
Dusty1000

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Manuscript Evidence for the Bible
Reliability of the New Testament as Historical Documents
What does any of this have to do with what the Bishop of Oxford said?
G Steyn...I don't quite understand why u are asking this question. Does it matter?
He only made one post which said nothing about creationism. Just because you're a Christian doesn't mean that you think God created mankind. The Bishop of Oxford is a good example of such a Christian.

Does this thread matter? It's a point of interest that all the arguments for creationism have come from Americans, until you came along.
advances ? when i google advances in science made in Islamic countries, all i see is why has muslim world made no contribution to science, why does muslim world lag in science, etc. Why was there an significant decline in scientific achievement sometime after the fifteenth century and why were there no scientific and industrial revolutions in the Islamic world?
I have already answered all of this in the other thread that I previously directed you to. You'll find answers to some of your questions here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
That is what the Surah 48:29 say exactly. Taken from the authorized translations which u posted the link.
Nope, your link leads to the forums on that site. Here is what the authorised translation does say:

29. Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.

That's not quite the same as what you originally claimed, is it?
For your information, according to the Qur'an: "Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah. Those who follow him are merciful to one another, but ruthless to unbelievers" Surah 48:29
What do u mean by this isn't the place to go through?
I mean it has nothing to do with this thread. That's why I directed you to the other thread in the first place.
Are u trying hide the facts? And they are not lying, as the bible states:
I hope you can see how illogical it is to say that the Quran must be wrong because the Bible says so.
Many passages in the Quran exhort Muslims to hate or kill or terrorize infidels (non-Muslims) wherever they find them. See Suras 2:190-193...
You have already copied and pasted this in a previous post. This is part of the problem when you copy and paste stuff from other sites, rather than giving us your own opinion.

I've already explained that the passage above describes a defensive war. Look it up and you'll see for yourself. In fact, I'll do it for you here as you've already failed to do so:

190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

Can you see how the fighting described is defensive and not offensive?
There are dozens of violent prescriptive statements like those above in the Quran
Are you saying that Muslims shouldn't fight back when attacked? The middle east was a violent place in those days, it's little wonder that lots of violence is described in the Quran.

I'm quite happy to discuss this further with you, but you should be prepared to answer questions in your own words. Anyway, like I have said, this subject matter is off topic for this thread. Perhaps you might want to post in the thread where this was already being discussed, or start a new thread?

Unless you support the idea that it was Allah who created mankind, I really don't see the relevance the Quran has here, but like I say, I am perfectly willing to discuss it further. What I would suggest is that you pick one verse or chapter at a time, and explain, in your own words, why you find it objectionable. That way we can have an actual discussion. We could copy and paste stuff all day long. I really don't see the point.

So, back to the Bible.
The book of Isaiah is from the Old testament and the New testament is Jesus. The Old Testament lays the foundation for the teachings and events found in the New Testament. The New Testament is only completely understood when it is seen as a fulfillment of the events, characters, laws, sacrificial system, covenants, and promises of the Old Testament
The New Testament specifically states:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

Have heaven and earth passed away? Of course not, therefore every part of every letter of the law of the OT, still applies.

Dusty

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04-21-2011 12:17 PM  7 years agoPost 5297
Dusty1000

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Duster,
You, like dr house, are astonishing.
I'd be real careful about quoting Holy Scripture
when you have literally proven here by your writings
that you have no Idea what the Bible is all about.
Then it should be a simple job for an 'expert' such as yourself, to answer simple questions relating to the Bible. The fact that you cannot, speaks volumes about how limited your understanding of it is. Even if you could recite the Bible off by heart, that would not mean that you understood the meaning of what it says.

Dusty

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04-21-2011 01:07 PM  7 years agoPost 5298
sks

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Dusty, you forget: acting is not about truth, it's about appearances and trying to convince those around you that you are such and such a character.

helicopter does it so well, which is why he started this thread to show off to people like Thomas and Dennis. Grey joined in trying to post in his style too, which is why you see them as colleagues in the film. I get a feeling that Dennis is not his type.

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04-21-2011 05:32 PM  7 years agoPost 5299
outhouse

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dude you dont know enough about what your quoting, to copy and paste false information only makes you look ignorant.

your biting off more then you can chew.
New Testament. These are dated from 100 to 300 years after the originals. (There are no original manuscripts ["autographs"] extant, but the number and similarity of copies allows scholars to reconstruct the originals.)
wrong

early works of mark are attributed to 30 ish AD not 100 AD

marks name was just attributed to the gospel as the others were attributed as well, to all unknown works.

they cannot reconstruct original works in any sense because the source material has been lost.

most opf the gospels are a compilation with known forgerys and additions.

you may want to look into the Q hypothesis as most scholars follow it.
This argues powerfully that the Gospels were in existence before the end of the first century
we know the gospels were in existence before 100 AD, that is not even up for debate. Johns gospel may have been finished around 90 AD
while some eyewitnesses (including John) were still alive.
first John was illiterate, and like the other gospels it is unknown if he wrote that piece.

that gospel was written over a long period and were not even sure if it was one author or a group of authors living in the area at the time.

there are no eyewitness accounts in the NT at all

such a important figure, but not one of about 48 scholars that lived in that area at that time wrote about him. not one word
Both liberal and conservative scholars in recent years have moved to the view that ALL of the New Testament was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
this is false possibly just a lie
Ebla tablets—discovered in 1970s in Northern Syria. Documents written on clay tablets from around 2300 B.C. demonstrate that personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine. In use in Ebla was the name "Canaan," a name critics once said was not used at that time and was used incorrectly in the early chapters of the Bible. The tablets refer to all five "cities of the plain" mentioned in Genesis 14, previously assumed to have been mere legends.
these are Sumerian cuneiform you know nothing about

scholars however know ancient hebrews stole fables and storys from the Sumerian culture before it collapsed
Finds in Egypt are consistent with the time, place, and other details of biblical accounts of the Israelites in Egypt.
wrong again

we already know ancient hebrews stole fables from egypt

what you fail to realize is that ancient hebrews started as a culture around 1250 BC, before that there was no such thing as hebrews.

the first 5 books of the OT were started around 1000 BC

these ancient semetic speaking people all came from sumerian and egyptian backgrounds bringing the local cultures religions with them.

as they became a culture all their own, they needed a religion of there own so they CREATED THEIR OWN RELIGION 250 years after their culture started.

these first fables were all told from oral tradition

oral tradition can be very accurate if told within said culture, almost word for word in some cases. if you have done the work which it is very obvious you have done NONE! you would know when you have cross culture and cross religion oral tradion is not accurate at all as there is no reason to keep someone elses fables original as there is no punishment for doing so. in ancient cultures if you wanted to change the religion you would face death.

anyway its obvious you dont know squat about the real history and your not even making a good parrot at this point

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04-21-2011 05:35 PM  7 years agoPost 5300
outhouse

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You have already copied and pasted this in a previous post. This is part of the problem when you copy and paste stuff from other sites, rather than giving us your own opinion.
true Dusty

this guy just copies junk he knowns nothing about

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