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HomeContestAircraftHelicopterAerobatic FAI F3C F3N Contest › Gordie Meads rules change proposal for AMA classes ( working notes version)
05-13-2011 12:54 PM  7 years agoPost 261
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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That's a good way to look at it Chris. The playing field will never be more level than in the first events when everyone is relatively new to set of maneuvers. Some will always have more skill than others, but it makes a difference when you do have to enter as a newcomer to a class when the other members of said class haven't yet already practiced it literally about 500 times.

Thanks for your feedback.

Ben Minor

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

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05-13-2011 02:59 PM  7 years agoPost 262
joec

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VA

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Just to "clarify" my opinion.

I have always stated that the current proposals for CI were going in the wrong direction... that is harder. I personally feel that we run the risk of turning people away by making CI harder.... CI should be an introduction to contest flying.

As for CII and CIII.... I agreed that the maneuvers should change, but again, not harder. I personally do NOT believe that the AMA Classes should be a "stepping stone" to FAI. I do not believe that just because FAI changes that the Classes should change. Now I know other may not agree with me on this... but that's my opinion. But I do support the maneuvers changing.
I do not accept the argument that we need these current changes to "increase" or even "maintain" participation. Personally, I do not see these maneuvers having any net effect on participation. And not to drag this thread down the "what do we need to do to save our sport" road, but the ONLY thing that has increased participation in this sport, was having a "fun test" at IRCHA, complete with cool prizes and heli give aways.

If you want to save our sport... then start a grassroots campaign and host local events like we do in VA and the CPAC does in Ohio. Heck, I remember a thread recently of someone wanting to fly contests on the West Coast. Without attracting and supporting new participants, and offering "local" events for them to go to, then the same 30 guys will continue to play this sport alone. And without running a high profile contest flying introduction at IRCHA (not NATS, IRCHA), participation will continue to suffer.

And finally, I am a little disappointed that these new maneuvers have taken so long to adopt. Now I understand that this NOT anyone's direct fault (it seems the bureaucracy and process within the AMA is to blame), but I would have thought if they weren't adopted by Jan 1, then we would have continued flying the old schedules for the 2011 contest season. I personally don't like seeing the maneuvers change basically 2 months before NATS, especially when there are so many people that don't read this forum.

Just my .02

Joe

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05-13-2011 03:16 PM  7 years agoPost 263
WreckRman2

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Orlando, FL

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While most of us encourage and enjoy new stuff if when this post was created it stated that this proposal could and WOULD take up to 9 months to implement I feel the acceptance of it would have been much less.

And I agree with Joe that one would have thought that if not adopted by Jan 1st then they would have to wait another year. Now we are half way through the month of May and we are still hearing hang in there, it's coming.

All the information on the AMA website shows the 2011 schedules the same as last year. Confusion, confusion... expecially if someone doesn't read these forums and has no clue if there are possible changes coming.

And don't worry... I didn't suggest you move to FAI because I already know you tried that and it didn't work out.

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05-13-2011 06:54 PM  7 years agoPost 264
Santiago P

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South West, Ohio

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I have always stated that the current proposals for CI were going in the wrong direction... that is harder. I personally feel that we run the risk of turning people away by making CI harder.... CI should be an introduction to contest flying.
Joe makes a valid point here, but this is not only isolated to AMA/F3c helicoper Comp, I have seen the same in pylon racing, my other crazy sandbox. BUT Entry level never meant beginners level.

In pylon, the sportsman class is defined as simple cheap Q500 dimensions, affordable engine normally a TT40, one prop and sometimes RPM litmiting.
IT IS ENTRY LEVEL RACING, NOT BEGINERS RACING. If you cannot control these planks at up to 135mph ground speeds, you will make a mess on the course. We do not shoo away folks that cannot hold a perfect racing line or bobble up and down on the course as long as they can fly safely.

Same with helicopters, Sportsman is entry level competition, not beginners pilot class.
Come on, at last year Nats the top four, and I KNOW YOU GUYS were capable of flying class III schedule, but you had the choice to fly anything since you were new to Comp, and smartly flew C1, unlike me, an idiot, who went for III because I flew it 18yrs ago . Hey, I'm having fun!

I compete with helis to challenge myself. I race pylon to kick butt and have fun. But I rather have a race where I squeeze ever inch and mph an lose by a foot than one were I lap everyone while cruising.

Time will tell if Sportsman schedule is too tough or just right. Practice makes perfect. Give it a try, you'll like it.

Santiago "chago" Panzardi
AMA1220

BTW, Dave "Altima", James, Andy P and Dave S, I am extremely proud of your accomplishment. A Class 1 battle were you swap winning rounds was worthy of a National Contest. Proud to be a friend to all of you.

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05-14-2011 03:15 AM  7 years agoPost 265
GM1

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Tallahassee, Florida US

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Hello
Hi Guys,
I'm in Huntsville Alabama for the HHF Contest this weekend. (May 14-15) Where are you?
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.

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05-14-2011 03:26 AM  7 years agoPost 266
WreckRman2

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Orlando, FL

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We're all still trying to decide what schedule to practice...

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David Smith
407.937.9556

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05-24-2011 09:59 PM  7 years agoPost 267
gwright

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Champaign Il

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I think there is an error in this maneuver as written, unless you want a tiny little 3M circle. You're at 2 meters in the hover, then I think you meant "performs a climbing ½ vertical circle to a height of 7 meters",.. not "climb to a height of 5 meters", which would mean a 3m dia circle. Should probably clarify the descending half circle as 5 meters also "descending 1/2 circle to hover at 2M above central helipad"rather than "to the central helipad"

29.3.2 Circle with 360 Degree Pirouette
Model takes off vertically and climbs to 2 meters, pauses, moves backward and performs a climbing ½ vertical circle to a height of 5 meters, pauses, performs a 360 degree pirouette, pauses, moves forward and performs a descending ½ circle to the central helipad, pauses, descends vertically to land on the central helipad

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05-25-2011 02:37 PM  7 years agoPost 268
Santiago P

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South West, Ohio

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taken from: http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/...pert_2011-1.pdf

You are correct, it should read "5m Dia" added instead of "to a height of 5m" to be consisent in size with the other manuevers. The picture shows is 5m dia.

chago

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05-25-2011 04:37 PM  7 years agoPost 269
Phaedrus

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S. Orange County, California

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The written and pictoral depiction differ as well regarding the direction. The picture shows the heli moving forward from the hover position. The written description says to move backwards first, which to me means towards the tail.

AMA Leader Member
Go FASST, or Go Home!!
Team Futaba

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05-25-2011 05:07 PM  7 years agoPost 270
George Matthews

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N.W. Ohio

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So could these kinds of oversights be a contributing reason for the delay of the adoption of the new set of maneuverer's?

George Matthews

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05-25-2011 05:15 PM  7 years agoPost 271
Santiago P

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South West, Ohio

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The written description says to move backwards first, which to me means towards the tail.
Good catch.
So could these kinds of oversights be a contributing reason for the delay of the adoption of the new set of maneuverer's?
Is not necessarily a delay, but part of the procedure before publication, they sit for a period after voted on, to get annotations and corrections before they get published according to Greg @ AMA

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05-25-2011 05:39 PM  7 years agoPost 272
ErichF

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Sutton, NH

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I brought up the direction error to Gordie at the Melbourne Event, so he knows about it.

Erich

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05-25-2011 06:44 PM  7 years agoPost 273
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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So could these kinds of oversights be a contributing reason for the delay of the adoption of the new set of maneuverer's?
Nope. Wording issues such as this which do not fundamentally change the spirit or intent of the maneuver would not cause any member of the board to delay execution of the process.

The maneuvers were posted on the AMA website for the specified month for comment.

At the end of that month they went to the board for the second vote with the reply deadline being May 28, 2011. Thus the results of that vote should be up in just a few days. Given the results of the first vote, I see no reason to anticipate anything other than passage.

The only hold up earlier in the late winter/early spring was while Tobias was graciously doing the drawings.

Ben Minor

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

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05-30-2011 02:32 AM  7 years agoPost 274
rapidity

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ohio

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Put 12 flights on today trying to fly the new C2 maneuvers. Every one of them seemed to be a challenge. A lot more skill required then the c1 maneuvers of last year.

Loop w/roll. Seems very unnatural to me. Was really barking the blades bad pulling out of the 2nd 1/2 loop. I take it the upright part of the roll is the center of the maneuver? We have to fly past the center line before pulling the 1st 1/2 loop?

Pull back. My 701/251 blew out on me 2x. Think I'm getting to much speed backwards when pushing into the 2nd upline.

Pushover. I take it this is to have a rounded 1/2 loop top and not just straight up and flop straight down? This one has a lot of pucker factor if your upline isn't sufficient.

4 second roll. Covers a lot of ground, big maneuver.

1st time I've really tried flying them, just my observations. Should be an interesting summer.

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05-30-2011 02:40 AM  7 years agoPost 275
ErichF

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Sutton, NH

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Loop with roll on top, yes upright segment is centered at top.

Pull-backs...as soon as heli coasts to a stop vertical, pop that collective positive and come off it right away, then push full down elevator to make the forward flip crisp. Phase collective during the flip to maintain a straight trajectory backwards to nose down. You should be ending with a bit of negative collective to prevent the "smiley face". Stop with a pop of positive collective and go back to center immediately so as not to affect your down line.

Push over is a forward flip, not a radius. Anticipate the stop of the heli upwards, and lead with forward elevator while at zero collective.

4 Second roll should be changed to 3 second. 1 second is a long time to knife edge a heli and not have any altitude loss.

Erich

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05-30-2011 02:48 AM  7 years agoPost 276
rapidity

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ohio

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Pull back I was going to neutral, letting it tail slide, then feeding pos pitch while pushing neg elev to get the 2nd upline. I'll have to work on that. It was blowing out on me just as it was starting to climb backwards, but then I had a lot of speed.

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05-30-2011 03:41 AM  7 years agoPost 277
Santiago P

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South West, Ohio

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Pull-backs...as soon as heli coasts to a stop vertical, pop that collective positive and come off it right away, then push full down elevator to make the forward flip crisp. Phase collective during the flip to maintain a straight trajectory backwards to nose down. You should be ending with a bit of negative collective to prevent the "smiley face". Stop with a pop of positive collective and go back to center immediately so as not to affect your down line.
Erich
The pull back on expert is diferent than in C III (advance). We go in a horizontal straight line flipping, backwards, the one in expert looks like the FAI ones with the "smilie faces", as in a backwards 1/2 loop.

Why they call both things "pull backs" is beyond me, call them backward jiggle wiggles for all I care.

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05-30-2011 03:47 AM  7 years agoPost 278
ErichF

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Sutton, NH

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OK, my bad...so they are supposed to do a 1/2 radius backwards loop?

Erich

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05-31-2011 04:22 AM  7 years agoPost 279
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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Bob,

Regardless of the fine print of the maneuver, if you were blowing out the tail either you got into the collective to hard and too fast or, more likely, the tail got off center. HH gyros being the fly-by-wire devices that they are will do everything they can to hold the tail in place. If the tail gets offline, the gyro immediately pushes a bunch of pitch into the t/r, stalling it in short order. You can hear it about to happen when the motor lugs down. If you keep the tail truly straight and in line, it's quite hard to blow it out even in an extended tail slide as our 3D brethren prove constantly.

Ben Minor

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

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05-31-2011 11:46 AM  7 years agoPost 280
rapidity

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ohio

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Prob got the tail off center, I'll try not making it so big, so I can keep a better eye on my alignment.

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HomeContestAircraftHelicopterAerobatic FAI F3C F3N Contest › Gordie Meads rules change proposal for AMA classes ( working notes version)
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