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10-13-2010 11:31 PM  8 years agoPost 101
Flying Brian

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St. Clairsville, Ohio

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People that blame the "Union" are very mislead!! What union, as there are so many different unions?

"I just don't Listen" "

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10-14-2010 07:23 AM  8 years agoPost 102
shawmcky

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Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

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For ordinary folks worldwide
a lot of good things came from unions,just that some became corrupted and turned into political monsters.Many of the good things that they were responsible for have been forgotten.

Team- unbiased opinion.K.I.S.S principle upheld here

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10-14-2010 07:28 AM  8 years agoPost 103
GimbalFan (RIP)

rrProfessor

Big Coppitt Key, FL

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For ordinary folks worldwide a lot of good things came from unions,just that some became corrupted and turned into political monsters.Many of the good things that they were responsible for have been forgotten.
Well said.

op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t

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10-14-2010 07:49 AM  8 years agoPost 104
TheWoodCrafter

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Costa Mesa, Ca.

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Many of the good things that they were responsible for have been forgotten.
Many of thoughs things are not needed today either. Government and competition has changed that. Yet unions are still a powerful force.

Look at the automobile industry.

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10-14-2010 11:57 AM  8 years agoPost 105
billybob

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Torrance, CA

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Many of thoughs things are not needed today either.
o" realy,like what!? corporate corruption is more now than ever, if there was ever a time that workers needed representation it's now. corparations are shipping jobs overseas and undermining what made this country great in the name of filling thier pockets,not all are bad... there are a few exceptions, but they are the few.
Government and competition has changed that. Yet unions are still a powerful force.
corporate america is the the government, and the laws are made to suit them, example...NAFTA. there's no competion

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10-14-2010 02:36 PM  8 years agoPost 106
fla heli boy

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cape coral, florida

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yeah, but unions (not ALL) are a big part of the reason jobs ARE going overseas. Corporate greed, yep, it's there. But union greed and corruption is the twisted sister here.

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10-14-2010 02:52 PM  8 years agoPost 107
billybob

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Torrance, CA

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some union leaders(at the international level) are indeed greedy, however since the dues collected by the union comes from the workers pay, shipping jobs out of this country means less money for the union so it realy does'nt benefit them to outsource. i would agree that there are those at high levels accepting genorous "contributions" from corparate leaders to "sway' contracts, but it's nothing compared to what the corparate/company leaders are raking in screwing over middle class america.

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10-14-2010 03:57 PM  8 years agoPost 108
fla heli boy

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cape coral, florida

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all true. I wonder when corporations became so greedy. I know they've always been at some level, but it just seems that it's getting progressively worse. No pride in our country and no worries about the people that produce and make them profitable. I think this is just global business rearing it's ugly head. One world order doe not mean the Chinese will soon be making our wages, it means we will be making Chinese wages before you know it. It's the nature of the beast.

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10-14-2010 07:47 PM  8 years agoPost 109
TheWoodCrafter

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Costa Mesa, Ca.

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Quote
Many of thoughs things are not needed today either.

o" realy,like what!? corparate corruption is more now than ever, if there was ever a time that workers needed representation it's now. corparations are shipping jobs overseas and undermining what made this country great in the name of filling thier pockets, there are a few exceptions, but they are the few.

Quote
Government and competition has changed that. Yet unions are still a powerful force.

corparate america is the the government, and the laws are made to suit them, example...NAFTA. there's no competion

Next D
billybob

You seem to be very pro-union. You must belong to a union.
I have never depended on a union for my job.

First - unions were stared to protect workers during the coal mining and factory sweat shop days. Where people were dying from the working conditions. That problem is gone today, hence, government regulations.
Second - unions protected employees by providing benefits, insurance, retirement, etc. Today if an employer doesn't provide that, you go to one that does and today government provides social security. That wasn't around when unions started.
Third - unions provided jobs for the un-employable, the un-educated. And today protects the jobs of the under-performing.

It is unfortunate that today it seems that unions are there for themselves. A lot of unions provide lots of jobs for non-producing members in the offices with jobs to maintain itself. Big waste of your money. Today unions are overpricing themselves.

Like I said, look at the U.S. car industry. The union labor was so high that the companies could not compete in the world and filed bankruptcy to get out from under the union contracts.

The only reason manufacturing jobs are going overseas is cost.
Unions have contributed to this whether they wanted to or not.

I know one of the biggest budget problems that my state, California, has is the overly paid unions that are sucking the state dry. Teachers unions, state workers union, correctional officer unions, etc. Some of these union members are making more retired than when they did work because of union contracts, hardy seems fair does it?
The public pays for this and I am tired of paying for it.

I still think there was a time for unions and for the most part that time has pasted.

Thanks, TheWoodCrafter

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10-14-2010 08:17 PM  8 years agoPost 110
billybob

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Torrance, CA

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You seem to be very pro-union. You must belong to a union.
I have never depended on a union for my job.
you seem to be very anti union, you must not belong to one.
First - unions were stared to protect workers during the coal mining and factory sweat shop days. Where people were dying from the working conditions.
true
Second - unions protected employees by providing benefits, insurance, retirement, etc. Today if an employer doesn't provide that, you go to one that does and today government provides social security. That wasn't around when unions started.
wich non union employees would not have if the unions had not fought for these things. "go some where else that does" you kidding, corporations are trying to get rid of these things. you going to retire on your big whopping social security alone?
Third - unions provided jobs for the un-employable, the un-educated. And today protects the jobs of the under-performing.
depends on wich line of work. teachers,pilots,aircraft mechanics and others alike, i would hardley say are uneducated. the union does help some get jobs with no college or certifications,but they are in positions that don't require it and it's better they sweep the floor and get paid something than sit on unemployment wich YOU'RE paying for, especialy in your state.
The only reason manufacturing jobs are going overseas is cost.
not that costs are too high, but that ceo's want a bigger bonus.
I know one of the biggest budget problems that my state, California, has is the overly paid unions that are sucking the state dry. Teachers unions, state workers union, correctional officer unions, etc. Some of these union members are making more retired than when they did work because of union contracts, hardy seems fair does it?
The public pays for this and I am tired of paying for it.
the problem with your state is that it's run by idiots...and they are mostly non union,they are to busy pandering to the illegals, tree huggers and butt pirates

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10-15-2010 12:10 AM  8 years agoPost 111
Flying Brian

rrElite Veteran

St. Clairsville, Ohio

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I have never depended on a union for my job
Some people are just so wrong minded nowadays..

"I just don't Listen" "

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10-15-2010 01:21 AM  8 years agoPost 112
TheWoodCrafter

rrKey Veteran

Costa Mesa, Ca.

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Something I forgot to mention and something most people will not admit to is that unions are sort of legalized extortion.

"You can't work here till you pay my boys off and keep paying them off every month." "no money, no work"

If not legalized extortion it is a localized monopoly where again "no money, no work" and as the employer you can't hire anyone that is not a member. It eliminates ALL competition.

Thanks, TheWoodCrafter

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10-15-2010 02:53 AM  8 years agoPost 113
billybob

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Torrance, CA

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same could be said for the IRS

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10-15-2010 06:56 AM  8 years agoPost 114
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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corparate corruption is more now than ever, if there was ever a time that workers needed representation it's now. corparations are shipping jobs overseas and undermining what made this country great in the name of filling thier pockets, there are a few exceptions, but they are the few.
No, for the most part, corporations are not corrupt, nor are their CEOs, board members, stockholders, or employees. Most every small business in America is a corporation. You are simply stating that anyone who is in business for themselves, and who has incorporated, is corrupt. That is a foolish argument made out of lack of understanding what a corporation IS, what it DOES, and why it exists.

Jobs that are being "shipped overseas" are being done so because the corporation cannot afford to have the work done "on shore" simply because of the burdensome tax laws and regulations that corporations are subject to. The corporation does not exist simply to fill the pockets of the CEO. The corporation exists to make a profit and distribute it to its stockholders. Stockholders are ordinary people. If you have any form of retirement fund, whether it be a 401K, mutual fund, pension plan, (government, corporate, or union). You are a stockholder. If you own any form of insurance (car, liability, homeowner's, renter's...), YOU are a stockholder. You own stock in those very corporations which you seem to despise.

Corporations are not evil. Though you are a union worker, without corporations such as GM, Ford, Chrysler, there would be no work for people who belong to the United Auto Workers to do. Without those corporations, the jobs simply wouldn't exist. Without Airline corporations, there would be no need for pilots, mechanics, baggage handlers, airport maintenance workers...

If there were no corporations to buy and sell manufactured goods, there would be no real need for over-the-road truckers, or rail-roads.

Without corporations, unions would be useless. Unions don't create jobs. When was the last time a union financed the build of a jumbo jet, pharmaceutical, or interstate highway? The jobs come from the corporations -- even those highway construction jobs. The jobs DON'T come from the union. The jobs don't even come from the government. The jobs come from the corporation, small or large.

When was the last time the unions financed houses for developers? Corporations, small and large actually finance the projects, and that is where the jobs come from.

Those nasty, horrible, rotten, money-grubbing CEOs actually invest much of their money in useless stuff -- charities, businesses that hire normal, everyday people, endowments for art, education and science. The evil corporations have also been known to support countless community, national, and world-wide causes, in the form of monetary grants, donations, good works of faith by their employees.

Those evil corporations hire people like you and me. They pay me a decent salary. I pay taxes out of that salary. The corporation who hired me pays taxes on the federal, state, and local level to fund all levels of government service. No corporations, no salaries, no taxes, no nothing.

Hospitals, most Doctor's offices, Dentists, Chiropractors, Podiatrists, Oncologists -- yep, part of some form of corporation. They are evil, better not use any of their services.

Teachers. Public schools are NOT corporations. Teachers, therefore, are not employed by corporations. Teachers are employed by state and local governments who operate the public school system. Since teachers are government employees, against WHOM is the union protecting them? Why are these people unionized? Who is exploiting them? By the way. Public schools are run by the Government. Public schools, in general, in the United States are turning out graduates who in no way, shape, or form, are literate enough to compete with others in today's economy. It is no secret that our government-run public schools are failing. Yet the National Education Association (large union) is fighting to keep average, every day people from having the choice of an education in private schools (run by Corporations, by the way) as a way of keeping itself alive. So many people are forced to accept sub-standard education offered by a government run system, and backed by one of the largest unions in the country. School choice is simply not an option for most.

What we get out of our public schools is people who can't spell, write, read, do simple math, or speak/write cogent thoughts. We get people who don't understand our government, why it's there, and what it's purpose is. We get people who believe that the corporation is evil and don't have a clue about why they exist, or what they actually do. We get people who hate this country, and wonder why we should ever want to control the influx of people across our borders. We get people who want to give up their freedom and independence for the promise of hope and change.

State and local government employees are not employed by corporations, but rather by the government. Who is exploiting THEM, and from whom must they be protected? Why are these people unionized? Just how happy are YOU with the services provided by your local government? Do you really enjoy going down to the DMV for a driver's license, or to register your car? Ever had to deal with a government worker in a county court-house, city hall, or city run water department? Ever wonder why it's so hard to get rid of an inept government worker?

Evil oil companies create jobs while they also produce the fuel that keeps the economy running.

Corporate America is NOT the Government. If you were to actually read and understand the US Constitution, you would find out that YOU are the government. You send representatives from your own districts to form the House and the Senate, and YOU elect the President. But those representatives work for YOU.
undermining what made this country great in the name of filling thier pockets
Unions are not what made this country great. What made this country great is the idea that the individual is free to succeed or fail on his own, without needing to depend on others. Rugged individualism is the rock that this country was built on, and on what this country thrives.

What IS undermining the country today is the idea that many people have been taught that someone else owes them a living. Too many people now believe that the government owes them healthcare, welfare, housing, and basic everyday items.

Corporations built the car you drive, the beer you drink, the house you live in, the farms that produce the food you eat, and the energy you have to keep warm in winter, cool in summer. Corporations built your I-pod, I-pad, personal computer, television, Wii, helicopter kit, radio control system, OS 55 Hyper, Outrage muffler, rotor blades, fuel, and batteries. Corporations developed every bit of medical equipment and medicine currently used in the modern world to keep you alive, comfortable, and relatively pain and disease free. Corporations make the toilet paper you... ...well, use.

Corporations build the weapons and goods used by our military to keep you safe, free, and capable of voicing your opinion as you do.

Corporations produce every bit of stuff you use on a daily basis. Yet you despise them. NONE of those products or services were developed, marketed, financed, and produced by unions. NONE. Zero, Zilch, Nada.

Contrary to popular belief, Corporations do NOT exist to pay your medical bills, to provide people with work, to educate people, to make you happy and fulfilled.

Corporations exist to make money for their owners and their shareholders (don't forget, if you have a retirement fund, pension plan, or insurance -- YOU are a shareholder, like it or not). It's kind of cool that in order to make that happen, they end up actually employing people and offering benefits to accomplish that goal.
the union does help some get jobs with no college or certifications,but they are in positions that don't require it and it's better they sweep the floor and get paid something than sit on unemployment wich YOU'RE paying for
That's encouraging. Note that the unions don't actually PROVIDE those jobs you mention, they only help one GET them. The job itself happens to be one offered by a CORPORATION. As for that unemployment I'm paying for, that is coming out of my TAXES which come out of my SALARY, which is paid by a... ...CORPORATION.

Before you start tearing down the corporation, take a few minutes to think about what you WOULD have, were there none in existence. Somehow, living in a cave, hunting wild animals with a stick or rock just doesn't sound too appealing to me. Maybe to you, but not me.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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10-15-2010 12:27 PM  8 years agoPost 115
billybob

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Torrance, CA

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No, for the most part, corporations are not corrupt, nor are their CEOs, board members, stockholders, or employees. Most every small business in America is a corporation. You are simply stating that anyone who is in business for themselves, and who has incorporated, is corrupt. That is a foolish argument made out of lack of understanding what a corporation IS, what it DOES, and why it exists.
it would be impossible to list off every corporation that exsists in the world, so for this discussion, i'm talking about major corporation(i said there were exceptions,read the whole thread) not mom and pop "corporations" selling ice cream out the back of a minivan. "corporations" yes it's broad.

Ok, to sum this up for you so you can understand, this is how it goes.

the problem is not the business itself but how it is managed. WHY would company excecutives be receiving bonuses when the company is LOSING money while workers get laid off and take pay cuts????
in the "good ole day" if a major company filed for bankruptcy, the leaders were shunned, BUT now if a company does this the leader is rewarded with a bonusfor "sheparding" the business through bankruptcy and then given a golden parachute while workers get the pink slip and pay cuts.
cost of labor too high??? for the most part there has been no wage increase across the board in years, but some how the costs have become to high???.(excuse to outsource, more money for the "leaders"

you seem to support shipping jobs out of this country,should we have all of the working class out of work and living on welfare that YOUR paying for, how the hell is the economy ever going to improve if people can't work and spend to get the economy going????please explain how offshoring jobs is good for this country
Corporations are not evil. Though you are a union worker, without corporations such as GM, Ford, Chrysler, there would be no work for people who belong to the United Auto Workers to do. Without those corporations, the jobs simply wouldn't exist. Without Airline corporations, there would be no need for pilots, mechanics, baggage handlers, airport maintenance workers...
ummm, the workers are the company. what would happen if managemant did not show up for a day...NOTHING, planes will still fly,get loaded,fixed, cars will still get assembled and so on. what would happen if the workers did not show up...SHUT DOWN. like i said its not the physical corporation itself but who's "running it", they are the leaders and should set the example
The jobs DON'T come from the union. The jobs don't even come from the government. The jobs come from the corporation, small or large.
yes somebody decides to start a buisness then they NEED people to work to do the the jobs for the company to exsist and grow, nobody is disputing that. the day that leaders of some companies look at workers as thier equal and not thier underling's is the day things may start to turn around.
the way it's supposed to go. a companies number one asset is it's employees...so... if you take care of them then you will have happy PRODUCTIVE ones, wich means, you'll have happy returning customers, wich means the company will make money, wich makes happy sharehoders, happy sharehoders must mean mamagement is doing there job right and then they get thier bonus wich they would then deserve because they did thier job wich is to MANAGE the company.
unfortunately things for the most part are the complete reverse of that, and THAT is the problem...Excecutives first then the shareholders, then the customer and lastly the employee. that is what my main beef is.

you say "with out corporations to finance, market...bla,bla,bla" there would be "no jobs" with out workers to do the jobs where would the coporation be??? in an ideal world both would take care of each other, but its just oneside taking care of itself. as far as charities and alike...TAX WRIGHT OFF for the most. between that and tax breaks for getting rid of jobs here they pay very little tax, now don't get me wrong, i'm not a obama suppoter but there needs to be a fair balance, but that just does not exsist right now.

you disagree with the unions helping to make this country?...after world war 2 the economy thrived in this country by the middle class workers making decent wages and so on, wich the unions fought for and built this economy. the auto indutry exploded and drove large parts of the economy, they were built by those scummy union workers... yes middle class is what made up a large part america
and lots were organized.

the world is a mess and it took "white collar,college educted leaders" to get us there. you can thank the bankers/law makers for getting us here...they're not union, but a CORPORATION

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10-15-2010 07:15 PM  8 years agoPost 116
TheWoodCrafter

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Costa Mesa, Ca.

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WOW, dkshema, you must work for a corporation.

Well said.

A lot of un-informed people like to blame corporations for there problems.

Thanks, TheWoodCrafter

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10-15-2010 09:15 PM  8 years agoPost 117
billybob

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Torrance, CA

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You must be one of the uniformed. I'm going to go take my four hour lunch now, thank you for subsidizing it,couldn't do it with out you

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10-15-2010 09:21 PM  8 years agoPost 118
TheWoodCrafter

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Costa Mesa, Ca.

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No, I wasn't referring to me.

Thanks, TheWoodCrafter

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10-16-2010 02:08 AM  8 years agoPost 119
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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No, not even the majority of large corporations are corrupt. Your statement is nothing more than a political talking point that cannot be substantiated to any degree.

Of course, we all know that the leadership of all unions are as pure as the wind driven snow. We've NEVER heard of any corruption ever going on within the union leadership, have we?

The majority of corporations ARE small businesses, mom and pop shops. Yes, there are the multinational, monster corporations, but for the most part, they are law abiding and run in an ethical manner.

Only a corporation can be managed poorly, by evil, twisted, people, it would seem according to your diatribe. Unions on the other hand are charitable organizations run by upstanding, honest, moral people who would never lie, cheat, or steal.

Those terrible, evil managers who do nothing toward making the company successful -- why even HAVE managers, CEOs, boards of directors? The business obviously runs itself, and the workers all know exactly what to do, how to do it, and the managers just sit in their big fancy offices, smoke cigars, and plot as to how they are going to oppress their employees. No one actually figures out the business plan, how to execute it, how to manage the money that makes the corporation successful, or figures out how to invest in capital equipment, buy it, make sure it's utilized to the best of its ability. The managers have no idea how to make sure that at the end of each pay period there is actually money to pay the salaries, taxes, benefits, and other fees. All that just happens in a business, doesn't it? Those buildings that the corporations work out of, the fleets of vehicles they operate, that just happens because the managers do nothing.

To turn your question back at you, why do unions even NEED their own management? Is the leadership of the UAW necessary? Is the leadership of the IBEW needed? Why do unions HAVE a management structure? Who represents the rank and file to make sure the union management isn't screwing them over? What would happen to the union if ITs leaders didn't show up? If you answer is "nothing", then why have them?

Is it that in a union, all are equal, but some are more equal than others?

You hear a lot about the "fat cat" CEO who gets the big bonus -- mostly because class-envy is easily used to pit groups of people against one another. But you rarely hear about the owner of the company who usually pays himself last, and all of his employees first, and quite often, gets paid little or nothing at all, especially in times where the economy is doing poorly. The owner, if he DOES end up making a profit, has to then turn a large portion of it over to the government. And since he is "rich", he gets to pay more taxes to support those who don't pay taxes at all.

If the big boss didn't get his giant bonus, exactly how does that affect YOU? It doesn't. But it's real easy to be envious of that big bonus and fool yourself into thinking he did nothing to deserve it. It's easy to imagine that he does nothing to earn that bonus. Jealousy and envy really don't buy YOU anything.

If that manager DOES shepherd his company through bankruptcy, or poor economic conditions, but in the end manages to actually save the company, he deserves a bonus. Would you rather he not succeed and have to shut down the entire operation?

Again, the only reason corporations exist is to make a profit to be shared by the owner and his shareholders. It is NOT the responsibility of the corporation to provide jobs, benefits, health-care, day-care, or touchy-feely exercises to make you feel good.

Workers are the company. Well, without the company, there is no need for workers. Most employees don't own the company, most employees can simply quit and find another job. If the managers don't come to work, the corporation ceases to function. The jobs are lost. Don't kid yourself thinking that you run the company simply because you work for it.

If the managers don't come to work, who buys the airplanes, the buildings, the capital equipment, who negotiates contracts for goods and services to keep the company running? Who makes sure the company stays solvent so it can continue to meet payroll?

You can have the happiest, most satisfied workers in the world, that is no guarantee that the corporation will be in existence tomorrow.

Why do I seem to support "shipping jobs out of the country" simply because I stated a fact? Businesses go where the economics offer them the opportunity to grow and prosper. If the tax burden forces a company to go off-shore, it would be suicide for it not to. Again, the corporation's purpose is to make a profit that can be returned to its owners and its shareholders. If a company cannot compete because its labor costs are ten times that of its nearest competitor, how do you propose solving that problem?

You've also been sucked into "class warfare". You talk about the working class. The middle class, the lower class, the upper class.

Odd how the guy who starts a business, works it 24 hours a day, seven days a week, for years, never gets to take a vacation break, struggles to keep it afloat amongst a very anti-business climate isn't seen as being part of the "working class".

Most people who are successful WORK at it daily. Success is made, not found. It's easy to divide people into the "haves" and the "have nots" so you can try to divide them and manipulate them.

If you are tired of being one of the "working class" then go start your own business. After all, according to your theory, if you own the business, you don't have to work ever again. You can stay home and rake in the dough while all those lower class slobs bring you money to line your pockets. I should have thought of that myself a long time ago.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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10-16-2010 02:24 AM  8 years agoPost 120
TurboRacer

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FL

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I just went back to work after a nice two year vacation!! Lots of travel, fishing, and riding dirt bikes

Back to the grind!

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