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HomeAircraftHelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsTotal G › Setup/Flight reports
08-15-2010 10:59 PM  8 years agoPost 41
Felt

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Acworth, Ga

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Must be nice to be Dave williams..

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08-15-2010 11:11 PM  8 years agoPost 42
DWS6

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Newark,DE

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I don't understand what that is suppose to mean???

Dave Williams
Team Align

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08-16-2010 02:25 AM  8 years agoPost 43
Razz

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Louisville, KY

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I currently am flying an Outrage Velocity 50 with a Total G, DX7SE, 8717's on 8V, JR volt. reg.VR5203 for tail servo 8900, SWE 630 blades, radix 95 tails. I was having some issues with bouncing on elevator aggressive stops...I had removed all the expo in "flight tunning advanced" from 30%. I was using 5 to 10% in radio for elev. and ail. Well I installed a softer 'red' damper 80 D, and added the expo back to stock 30% in TG software.

The next flight was absolutely "grooving!" That heli so so responsive, yet smooth and precise...I'm now super happy with the TG. I'm still doing some minor roll and flip stop adjustments. Also the tail gain is set to 65% and it's the best tail I've ever had, super holding, never a wag, and super consisent piro's. can't wait to try the TG on the 700...Curtis did a lot of testing with that heli.

Brian Rasmussen
Louisville, KY

DX8, Ballistic FSO, Gaui X5, Warp 360, Vbar

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08-16-2010 02:48 PM  8 years agoPost 44
Felt

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Acworth, Ga

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Dave, I was being sarcastic. What I was saying is it must be nice to have Curtis helping you. Thanks for the info. Keep it coming!

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08-16-2010 03:07 PM  8 years agoPost 45
DWS6

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Newark,DE

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I got ya. It was a really good experience. My setups were good but when the man picks at your machine for things that can be improved it definitely taught me a lot. I completely underestimated how much load goes into your servos, especially FBL. I knew it was high but even the slightest bit of slop will cause weird interactions. My issue was mainly just sloppy 8717 servos, specifically elevator. Combine that with the horn having a slight amount of backlash in the teeth and then running them at 6.8v regulated instead of 8v all combined made it fly weird.

Dave Williams
Team Align

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08-17-2010 02:05 AM  8 years agoPost 46
Felt

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Acworth, Ga

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Would you suggest using metal horns?

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08-17-2010 02:16 AM  8 years agoPost 47
jakeg1999

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San Diego, CA

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It just depends where you want your weak link to be. I don't think the plastic horns will break under normal use. However I have had them strip due to a crash, which I am completely fine with, because if I had metal horns, I would have damaged something else. Personally I like the plastic horns on helis.

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08-17-2010 02:23 AM  8 years agoPost 48
DWS6

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Newark,DE

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No, I would not suggest metal horns just as jake just stated you will send the load into your $150 servo instead of the $4 horns. definitely stay plastic and just replace as needed.

Dave Williams
Team Align

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08-17-2010 03:13 AM  8 years agoPost 49
Felt

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Acworth, Ga

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Dave, How does the total G feel compared to the 3G?

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08-17-2010 03:28 PM  8 years agoPost 50
DWS6

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Newark,DE

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It's still a little to early to tell. There are differences but I need some time on the 700 then switch back to the 3G on the 600 again before I could give an accurate description.
Most of the flights I put on the TG have been short troubleshooting flights so now it's finally ready to fly.

Dave Williams
Team Align

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08-17-2010 07:44 PM  8 years agoPost 51
Felt

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Acworth, Ga

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Awesome, I cant wait to here your opinion.

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08-22-2010 05:49 AM  7 years agoPost 52
DWS6

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Newark,DE

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OK, well got 7 more flights on it today and it took 5 to get the elevator bounce under control. My buddy (floop) and I were bouncing between his 700 and mine which have identical setups but completely different flying characteristics even with identicaal expo value in the trans and software.

My cyclic ATV's are at 60% and are fast and very crisp off center. BUT I had a elevator bounce that has been driving me nuts. His machine is rock solid as far as the bounce goes but his controls felt soft off center and the machine felt lethargic until he upped the ATV to some value over 100% I think its in the ballpark of 115. I had to up my flip stops to 51 back and 54 forward to stop the bounce while his is all the way down to 29 with better results. His drift would start at 30 and mine at 55.
The only differnce in setup is I am on the outside holes in the align horns and his are on the inside. In my troubleshooting prior to today I did not notice any differences between inner and outer holes with the TG. Also note that even when my balls were on the inner holes it would still require high stops.

If you run your stops low the flip and roll rates will also be slow. there is definitely a corrilation here. When you run them higher without decreasing the ATV then the flip and roll speeds increase significantly. Alot like on other gyros when you up your tail gain by a lot the piro speed decreases. Kind of the same thing here.

Once you get it dialed in it flys very well. I still can get the FC gain higher and the stops fine tuned better but I ran out of fuel to continue testing today. Its getting close now that I understand how this thing works. It takes some tweaking in one area but that affects how another setting works so it just takes a bit of time. I think most people would be happy with the results out of the box but floop and I are pretty particular when it comes to flight feel.

It tracks unbelievably well especially when you get the FC gain up high. It feels like you have to fly it off the line its on otherwise it will never move. This is weird to me because if your hauling a$$ through a hurricane it feels like it will just keep coming at you and you have to keep pulling in more and more elevator to break the line. The tail is better then the 3G but it still will whip in a piro tail slide once the model gets close to terminal velocity. Otherwise it feels great. You can run the gain very high (107% in the trans) around 94% in the software and it feels good. I noticed something that was unusual to me with this gyro. Typically when the gain gets too high a gyro will wag in sideways flight or in a fast funnel but this thing will fight your inputs in piro manuevers before the tail gain gets that high. If you do piro flips it will feel like the tail is stalling thoughout the piro. Back it down a few percent and its smooth and holds like a rock. I was around 115% when it would do this. At 60-70% of other gyro gains the TG tail will hold but its soft so run it higher.

Overall I like it but its not as easy as a 3G is out of the box. I have flown several V-bars and they all have felt just a bit behind my inputs. After a few minutes you forget about that and it will begin to fly normal but the 3G and the Total G feel more like a flybar in regards to response off center and the TG will track a line a little better the the 3G. Tail on a v-Bar is still unmatched, even in pro tailslides it cant get anymore consistant then the V-Bar

I like the simplicity of the 3G. Its just Plug and Play and it works where with the TG I am somewhere around 3 gallons worth of fuel spent tweaking. I have never owned a v-bar just flew others so cant really comment to much on all of its flight tendencies. I thick all 3 units are good. But they all fly differently and have their own individual draw backs.

Dave Williams
Team Align

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08-22-2010 06:08 AM  7 years agoPost 53
HeliVIG

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Hearne, TX USA

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The Bounce on elevator is almost always either slop in the controls or binding in the controls. The other thing that is less common but can cause inconsistent results on the stops is blade grip thrust bearings being rough. In general on a 700 numbers very close to default on the stops should work well. On the other machine, feeling slow and needing more control throw sounds like too low of an FC Gain. Around what gains are you guys running? It is also very important that the total G is mounted very solid. We often strap it down tight. Any ability to move on stops will give strange results.

It

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08-22-2010 06:46 AM  7 years agoPost 54
DWS6

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Newark,DE

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Curtis,

My gain was at 52 and his was at 58. My heli is the one we were troubleshooting at IRCHA and you let me borrow your servos. We greased my trust bearing at IRCHA too. Both TG are single layer tape across entire bottom and strapped.

Even after I swapped the sloppy horn we found and re-did the setup with the balls on the outside holes. I was able to back my throws to 32 ail and elev and 40 on pitch I think this is where I ended up. I still had the bounce on hard cyclic and pitch combinations mainly backwards not forward. So I continued to increase it until I found the drift point then backed it off. That seemed to do it. 51 is were the stop is now for back and 54 for forward. ail are 33.

Dave Williams
Team Align

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08-22-2010 02:40 PM  7 years agoPost 55
HeliVIG

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Hearne, TX USA

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Did you fly it with my servos. The way your was flying originally was quite strange. I thought we had found the cause. But from the numbers you are describing it sounds like we missed something?
There must be something binding in the controls.

Are you still running it straight voltage, etc like we had at IRCHA?

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08-22-2010 03:14 PM  7 years agoPost 56
DWS6

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Newark,DE

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Yes, your servos are still in it, straight 2s voltage. We were getting ail to elevator interactions which I believe you fixed as I don't see that anymore. The bounce never completely stopped though. What is odd to me is how much higher my stops coast threshold is. It all the way up to 55 before the coast starts.

I don't see binding. At least I cant find it. Everything seems smooth.

Dave Williams
Team Align

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08-22-2010 03:36 PM  7 years agoPost 57
HeliVIG

rrApprentice

Hearne, TX USA

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The Bounce is an indication that the system is reacting too slow for what the flight control is trying to do. That bounce is a lot like tail oscillations with a tail gyro. It says something specific about the system. It is possible that the FC gain is just too high. If your control ratios are relatively high then the mechanical gain is high. So the actual gain number you need in the total G would be lower. You might try going down 5 or 10 units on the gain and see if the bounce goes away.

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08-22-2010 03:59 PM  7 years agoPost 58
DWS6

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Newark,DE

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Ok I did notice that when I had the gain at 42 in the software that it was reduced dramatically but felt unlocked. I think your on to something there.

What kinds of things can I do to reduce mechanical gain? Move in on the servo horns, and what else?

Dave Williams
Team Align

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08-22-2010 06:52 PM  7 years agoPost 59
HeliVIG

rrApprentice

Hearne, TX USA

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You want to move the servos as much as possible to get the 14 +- on the cyclic. So shorter wheels. Shorter ball position on the T arms and further out balls on the grips all give you better resolution. But I could see if you go too short on the servo wheels you will start to get nonlinear response on the controls. Which wheels do you have on the servos? And how far ou on the wheels are the balls?

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08-22-2010 07:02 PM  7 years agoPost 60
DWS6

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Newark,DE

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When you flew it, it had holes drilled at 24mm spacing so 12mm from center which would be the same as the Align inner holes. I am now using standard align wheels because of the sloppy elevator horn, which are 30mm spaced or 15mm from center

Dave Williams
Team Align

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HomeAircraftHelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsTotal G › Setup/Flight reports
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