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HomeRC & Power✈️Aircraft🚁Helicoptere-Electric Battery-Charger-pSupply › Which charger for 12 s 5000mah???
05-06-2010 06:19 AM  9 years ago
Al Austria

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Sacramento, CA - USA

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Chill out Chris, I'm simply stating my views. There is no need to go into "ultra defensive mode" just because I don't agree with you.

Dr. Ben, I do not have the approriate balance harness for parallel charging, but this is not the method in question. I will try charging two similar, equally conditioned packs later today, both individually and synced and I will report back what I find.
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05-06-2010 06:19 AM  9 years ago
TJinGuy

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Socorro, NM - USA

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Sorry there Al but I am not in "ultra defensive mode", I just have a big problem with people spreading misinformation.
I will try charging two similar, equally conditioned packs later today, both individually and synced and I will report back what I find.
You actually believe that your charger will charge the packs to different voltages if they are not "sync" charged? Interesting.

---
Jacoub in truth you have several options and all will work fine. Some options cost more, some are quicker and some are simpler. In the end it doesn't matter which you choose as long as it works for you.

If I were to make a recommendation to you right now, I would recommend you buy an iCharger 106B+ and a good power supply (300W+ 15V). Then I would recommend you get familiar with parallel charging. Doing this will give you a charged flight pack (pair of 6s 5000 packs) in about an hour. Just make sure you learn how to do parallel charging properly.
- Chris

Team New Mexico
TJinTech
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05-06-2010 06:31 AM  9 years ago
Jacoub

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Kuwait

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TJinGuy
Thanks mate, and how about the balencer, for instance, when I am charging the 2X 6s 5000mah in parallel, each battry has his own balancer cable, and the charger just has one slot, so how can I balance them togather.

Cheers mate
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05-06-2010 06:42 AM  9 years ago
TJinGuy

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You connect both packs in parallel. That includes both the main discharged leads and the balance leads. Here check out my site for more info.

http://sites.google.com/site/tjingu...rallel-charging
- Chris

Team New Mexico
TJinTech
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05-06-2010 06:52 AM  9 years ago
Jacoub

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Kuwait

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TJinGuy
You are the maaaaaan, thanks so much,
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05-06-2010 07:11 AM  9 years ago
ESWLFSE

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Liberty Hill, TX

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Just scored a Duo 3.

Edit: Sold out from under me.
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05-07-2010 02:30 AM  9 years ago
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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Here's a question:

Let's assume you have two packs indpendently charged and match to the voltage of the weakest of the cell(s) in the pack. Let's say one pack matches at 4.20 across all 6 cells, and the other pack settles at 4.19 for all of them. Now lets assume that a Sync charged pack matches all the cells to 4.19 V for all 12 cells. Great. We're starting at theoretically the exact same voltage for all the cells. The thing I'd like to see justified with hard data is how this same starting voltage will in any way dictate the fact that the packs are still going to discharge at a rate consistent with the health of the cells in each pack. IOW, balance charge two packs indpendently and them run them on a 12S system. Record the terminal voltage of each pack. Then do the same with a Sync charger. Show me the improvement in the statistical variance in pack voltage at the end of a discharge following Syn charging. THEN show me how, if the final discharge voltage is more closely matched, WHY those numbers are better than if those packs are charged parallel charged.

Facts are facts. There will be little room for a pissing match if the numbers prove or disprove the assertions at hand.

Ben Minor
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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05-07-2010 03:13 AM  9 years ago
TJinGuy

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Socorro, NM - USA

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Let's assume you have two packs indpendently charged and match to the voltage of the weakest of the cell(s) in the pack. Let's say one pack matches at 4.20 across all 6 cells, and the other pack settles at 4.19 for all of them.
You are not getting balance charging. When you balance charge any lipo, all the cells are charged to 4.2V, not each other. During the charge process the chagrer tries to keep the cells at roughly the same voltage (depending on the charger and settings) but the only objective the charger has it to get them all to 4.2V.

If you see 4.19V on a cell then that is normal. No charger can charge a cell to an exact 4.2V resting voltage without exceeding 4.2V during the charge. This is due to the load the charger places on the battery. Most chargers these days are set to fast charge packs and so they stop charging anywhere from .1A to .5A. The higher the current when the stop, the larger the voltage drop the cells "settle" to. Most of the time the cells should settle to between 4.18V and 4.19V. Changing the charge style and current cut off will achieve a higher resting voltage but at the expense of time.
- Chris

Team New Mexico
TJinTech
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05-07-2010 04:38 AM  9 years ago
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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I also asked this question via PM, but it's good here as well. If the charger terminates with several cells at 4.19V just before the charge terminates and assuming the charger is tapering down to about 300 ma, at that point is the cell effectively back at resting voltage? Since I suspect that is what you're saying, then I was just misinterpreting resting voltage versus how well the cells are matching when the current is much higher.

Al, you're going to have to go back and reexplain/justify the difference between a pack balanced charged to 4.2V/cell and then allowed to settle to whatever the volt/cell and a sync charged pack in terms of the difference in voltage of the packs right off of charge and at the end of a cycle.

Good discussion......

Ben Minor
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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05-07-2010 06:15 PM  9 years ago
Flying Tivo

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Monterrey,NL,Mexico

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Eos Duo III
We would have to get into chemistry and their properties to properly address you with hard cold facts. Most of us at the hobby level wont have the answere for you. What i understand of Sync charging is that the chemistry of the batteries on each individual cells are subjected to equal charging properties(amps,watts,volts, time, etc..). If you allways use the packs together(charge/discharge) and never mixed them up. They will behave chemically the same(internal resistance), and they will deteriorate almost identically, thus giving you a more predictable power source for your heli. Unless you are a very bad welder, the discharge of 2 6S packs in series would offer no diffrent resistance to discharge and very predictable you will end with 2 6S packs equally discharged. This is the advantage i see on the sync charging, it will prevent from overdischarging a single pack due to diffrent internal resistance.

If the prices of the 5S and 6S 5000mAh, would be cheaper, then i would probably not care much, but at those prices, you really need to take care of them.

This are not cold hard facts, but just my 2 cents.

Felipe
If life throws at you lemons......Squirt some lemon juice in the eye of your enemy!!!!
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05-07-2010 06:47 PM  9 years ago
Dr.Ben

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Are you saying the sync charging can control the development of a mismatch in internal resistance of the cells? How? It's not at all uncommon for economy Chinese packs to have at least several mOhms (right units?) different from the others int he trio when the packs are still very fresh. How will sync charging change that?

Also, I'm not yet understanding how sync charging has any control over how the packs will discharge. You can syn charge to your heart's content, but if these economy packs have cells with IR differences straight from the factory, the charger can't fix that and it can't keep the pack with cells with higher IR's from discharging unequally as compared to the mate of the 12S combo.

When you've checked your packs at the end of a flight following long term use of sync charging over the life of the packs, what is the greatest difference in individual cell voltage you've seen?

I'm really not looking for PhD explanation here, but I AM looking for a supported argument that extends beyond a paraphrasing of the average Hyperion advertisement.

Ben Minor
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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05-07-2010 10:20 PM  9 years ago
Flying Tivo

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Monterrey,NL,Mexico

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Example
The Internal resistance of a cell is due to the chemistry, and its not allways the same as from factory. If you start with a fresh china made pack that has X Ohms and another pack with Y Ohms. If you start Sync charging them, after a few cycles they will start to equalize as the charger pumps a certain amount of watts constantly. If one cell takes them in easily and another slower, the balancer takes additional current and pumps it to the lower cell or cells. After a few charges the internal resistance will lower on the other cells as you keep cycling them.

In my case i have never seen more than 1 volt diffrence from one pack to another after 80% discharge. I have a Jive80HV with an Xcera motor.
About 90% of the times the voltage is the same on both packs.

On another note, if you buy high quality cells, they are matched on internal resistance from factory, but not the chepoo ones!!!

This is my experience, but i may be wrong!

Felipe
If life throws at you lemons......Squirt some lemon juice in the eye of your enemy!!!!
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05-07-2010 10:33 PM  9 years ago
TJinGuy

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Socorro, NM - USA

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If you start Sync charging them, after a few cycles they will start to equalize as the charger pumps a certain amount of watts constantly. If one cell takes them in easily and another slower, the balancer takes additional current and pumps it to the lower cell or cells. After a few charges the internal resistance will lower on the other cells as you keep cycling them.
That is not accurate.
In my case i have never seen more than 1 volt diffrence from one pack to another after 80% discharge. I have a Jive80HV with an Xcera motor. About 90% of the times the voltage is the same on both packs.
Of course they are the same voltage, they are the same model of lipo, are the same age, have the same history and they are discharged together. That has no connection to the way you charge.
On another note, if you buy high quality cells, they are matched on internal resistance from factory, but not the chepoo ones!!!
The cells are characterized individually and then like cells are placed together to make packs. That has no connection to the way you charge.

Again you are placing too much on "sync" charging. The charger is simply balancing the packs together and nothing else. This method of charging has no impact on the packs, it simply makes it so you can charge 2 packs as 1. Parallel charging gives you the same results using any charger.
- Chris

Team New Mexico
TJinTech
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05-08-2010 03:39 AM  9 years ago
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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I checked the voltage on all 4 sets of my 6S 5000 economy packs post discharge tonight. Each set of two has been kept as a pair and each 6S pack charged indpendently on a 106B+ charger. One set has has over 45 cycles on it. The maximum voltage disparity between the packs I measured was about 0.075 V. Does that sound acceptable?

Felipe, are your packs consistently coming off discharge with each pack's voltage closer than 0.05V to the other, which was what I saw in at several of my packs? When you say "same voltage", are you stating the post discharge voltage is the same out to 1/100th of a volt 90% of the time?

Ben Minor
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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05-08-2010 03:53 AM  9 years ago
Ace Dude

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USA

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When charging two packs in sync mode the charger can see the individual voltage of every cell in the two packs being sync charged. When charging in parallel the charger does not have the ability to monitor each cell in the pack as it sees all the cells in parallel as a single voltage.  
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05-08-2010 04:02 AM  9 years ago
Jacoub

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Kuwait

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Oooooopssss, so I don't have any other way, I should by Due 3 charger
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05-08-2010 04:38 AM  9 years ago
Ace Dude

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USA

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The nice thing about a true dual port charger is that you can charge two different cell count packs (e.g., 4s and 6s) at the same time.  
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05-08-2010 04:49 AM  9 years ago
TJinGuy

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Socorro, NM - USA

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When charging two packs in sync mode the charger can see the individual voltage of every cell in the two packs being sync charged. When charging in parallel the charger does not have the ability to monitor each cell in the pack as it sees all the cells in parallel as a single voltage.
The nice thing about a true dual port charger is that you can charge two different cell count packs (e.g., 4s and 6s) at the same time.
You are right Ace, those are some of the benefits of a dual port charger or 2 separate chargers. Of course sync mode has nothing to do with it, it is just that the charger can charge 2 packs.
- Chris

Team New Mexico
TJinTech
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05-08-2010 05:02 AM  9 years ago
Ace Dude

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USA

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Sync mode means the charger is actively monitoring the charge progress of two electrically separate packs as one large pack. This is not the case when using two separate physical chargers.  
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05-08-2010 05:51 AM  9 years ago
fenderstrat

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Aston,Pa

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If you allways use the packs together(charge/discharge) and never mixed them up. They will behave chemically the same(internal resistance), and they will deteriorate almost identically
I have found this to be the case with my lipos run in series and I do not own a Hyperion charger.this will happen regardless as long as you keep the packs as one "set".Especially if you start with both packs brand new.

Discharging(flying) matches the packs more than charging.when charging you are charging the cells to 4.2V and trying to keep them at the same rate,thats all.When you are flying the packs, the way you fly is going to determine how the packs form together as certain cells will drop in V at certain times and other cells will compensate,this give and take over many cycles is what forms the bond between the packs,as all cells work together to hold V for your particular style..my 2C anyway
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HomeRC & Power✈️Aircraft🚁Helicoptere-Electric Battery-Charger-pSupply › Which charger for 12 s 5000mah???
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