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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › From sim to real live flying
04-30-2010 07:49 PM  8 years agoPost 1
ssmith512

rrKey Veteran

Indianapolis, IN USA

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OK. I use the Phoenix sim with my Futaba 12FGH on a fairly regular basis. I have the same settings (pitch and expo) for Phoenix and my real life model. I can fly what I would consider to be pretty damn well in Phoenix (not at all being arrogant, simply am happy with my progress in Phoenix). Heli never really "get's away from me", dont really ever loose orientation, I feel very "connected" to the model, and have all the confidence in the world to fly quite aggressively.

I go to the flying field with my real life Synergy, same Futaba 12FGH, and all hell breaks loose. The heli is "all over the place", I dont fell connected to it at all. The heli will make moves that put it "off line" and I freak out and either over correct, or dont correct at all and I have to bail. I have no idea if I am unknowingly putting in stick movements I dont want ((adding elevator when I all want to add is aileron for example) I dont think so - cause the model in Phoenix stays online) or if it's the wind, or the heli or what. No confidence what so ever to do any of the more difficult maneuvers that I can do all day long in Phoenix. The ONLY difference between the flying field and my computer room is I sit down leaning back to fly with Phoenix and I am standing up to fly at the field (and of course the ever present pucker factor). Maybe I should bring a chair to the field LOL!

I feel like, based on what I am presently able to do in Phoenix, that I can move my flying up a notch this summer, but lately when flying out at the field, I just have this weird disconnect with the heli and I dont feel in contol at all. It is kind of like when on Phoenix the heli is in slow motion and I can stay ahead of it, but in real life I dont get that slow motion feeling and I fell like I am always behind in my flying.

What gives? Any ideas, suggestions, advice?

Steve

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04-30-2010 07:56 PM  8 years agoPost 2
VooDooX

rrElite Veteran

San Francisco Bay Area CA, US (San Mateo)

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its probably set up different then the heli in the sim i used to have this same feeling but then i upgraded helis and went flybarless and now i can try things in real life i only did on the sim like piroflips best bet is go thru and EDIT the model till it feels just like yours in real life feels then fly on the sim again also remember a sim heli is

TOP OF THE LINE PERFECTLY TUNNED and real life its not also if you think its going in slow montion on the sim and faster in real life change the sim rate to 115% or 125%

what kinda servos you have in real life i know on pheonix they are all super fast super high torque servos ever since fully upgrading my heli i have noticed it flys just like the sim

Velocity 50 "99.9999999999999% of an atom is empty space." also 01001000 01001001

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04-30-2010 08:08 PM  8 years agoPost 3
Bundian

rrVeteran

Fort Lauderdale, FL USA

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Just like VooDoo said try to experiment with the settings a little bit on Phoenix.
What I've personally noticed is the pitch is a bit less responsive on Phoenix than in real life.
For example my Logo is running 14 pitch and on the sim it's 15.
If I put the Logo on 15 I'm overdoing everything.
As for expos and stuff, my heli is setup for real fast so i'm using negative 50 or more expo on the sim to get the same result as in real life.
Also check the horse power of the engine, you need to tweak that sometimes too, and little changes like .3 - .6 make a huge difference how the heli flies on the sim.

Fly it like you stole it!!!

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04-30-2010 08:37 PM  8 years agoPost 4
Zaneman007

rrElite Veteran

Texas - USA

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It sounds like your learning to hover, but..... When you are on the sim, you have....
all the confidence in the world to fly quite aggressively.
You need to practice on the sim, just as you practice in real life.

In other words, if you are learning to hover, hover on the sim. DO NOT work on piro flips or other advanced tricks.

True life story;
There was a guy at our field who bragged about doing piro flips and all sorts of advanced tricks on the sim. At the field, he would be lucky to hover 4 feet off of the ground without plowing it in.
I told him to practice hovering on the sim instead of doing tricks.
He came back two weeks later and hovered nose. When I told him that he looked good, he stated, "I took your advice."

IMO
It is very important to learn all of the orientations on the sim and then do them at the field. And then go back to the sim and work on your weak spots that you noted at the field. I work on everything that I normally do at the field, plus orientations, plus moving orientations, plus one trick that I want to do next.

The big difference between the field and the sim is..... PANIC. You never panic on the sim, ever.

Old Guys Rule!

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04-30-2010 08:59 PM  8 years agoPost 5
budz

rrApprentice

las vegas

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yes, perfect your hovering, making the heli stay in one place even when there's wind. remember, all heli flight starts and ends with a hover.

then progress to orientation. left and right side hover, then start doing M's and 8's. don't rush yourself with flying fancy stuff. it's all about muscle memory. things will just fall into place as you fly.

team solo

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04-30-2010 10:34 PM  8 years agoPost 6
McKrackin

rrProfessor

Lucasville,Ohio

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The main adjustment to make in the Phoenix menu is in the main rotor menu.

Hover Stability.It is 100% by default.Make it 0%.
Also get a tach and get your real heli headspeed and set it to match on the sim.

Weigh your heli.Set it to match.
Cyclic pitch.
Collective pitch.

All of it.

My heli and sim are the same animal.

VooDoo is right on speed to.
My sim is at 115%.

I literally never use the word literally right.

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04-30-2010 10:42 PM  8 years agoPost 7
McKrackin

rrProfessor

Lucasville,Ohio

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Also practice keeping the heli in front of you from 10:00 to 2:00.

Very rarely in real life can you get away with letting the heli get behind you.
You can save it on a sim but in real life you just crashed and likely hurt someone bad.

I literally never use the word literally right.

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05-01-2010 05:02 AM  8 years agoPost 8
spiccolli99

rrApprentice

phila,pa-usa

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everything i do on the sim
i do in real life when im 100% on the sim and not crashing i will try it in real life. but like anyone could tell you its perfect on the sim and in real life i notice if i add collective the way i do on the sim ill bog the motor. i believe you need to burn fuel more too then just simmin . you get too comfortable with a sim . of course cause it cost nothing to crash but i notice i ve gotten a lot better when i actually burnd fuel and not affraid as i was in the beginning

which way is it going dude!!!!!!?? am i inverted??

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05-01-2010 05:56 AM  8 years agoPost 9
Andy.Kim

rrVeteran

Seattle, WA

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practice smarter not harder
Like it was mentioned, fly the sim like you would in real life so you develop good habits.

Sims a tool. Make good use of it.

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05-01-2010 06:44 AM  8 years agoPost 10
itsjojo

rrKey Veteran

North East Pennnsylvania

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Man, what a good thread! In my opinion it has perfect responses too! I have 3 years and nearly 1000 hours on the sim. I feel very experienced at the Sim/reality conversion as well. These guys all hit the nail on the head here.
Some things I have done and noticed too:

Match the rates of flipping rolling & yaw through the sims settings
(the better I knew how to tweak the sim to match the rc heli the easier the transition got)

I always try to hit the sim directly after flying the real heli. This is when I would tweak the settings, while real rc flying is fresh in your mind.

I still fly G 3.5 and I feel my Trex 700 physical speed is a direct match to a "physics speed of around 110 - 120 in the G 3.5 sim. In learning, I practiced tricks increasing the "physics speed" to quicken my reactions. I got all the way to 190 from the original setting of 100. This was so lightning fast it was hard to fly. This was over winter when I wasn't really flying much. I then lowered my physic speed down to normal as I neared flying season to feel more connected. In my simulator I also noticed any physic speed below 100 was slow motion. I flew physics speeds down to 50(ultra slow motion) in tricks to learn them. When learning piro flips, I couldn't even tell what the heli was doing during videos of proflips on youtube and RR. In the sim at a setting of 50, I could actually do sloppy piro flips! I kid you not, I could fly piro fips and set down the sim's Tx and take a bite of my sandwich and get back to the piro flip without crashing! Lol! I just kept pushing up the physics speed over 2 years and eventually learned them. I mean I am no Alan Szabo but I can do them!!!

Also I took Burt Kammerer's advice and flew one sized Rc model. Noticing my disconnect feeling of sim to reality. I noticed the same disconnect from one Rc heli to another. I began to think this "disconnect" was not just Sim-to-Rc-heli but from Real-heli to Real-heli as well. Such as switching from my 450 to my 600 or 700. This was a biggie for me. I am now very comfortable with the real nitro and the pucker factor is minimizing so I tried an experiment (I don't recommend this for newly learning pilots) I downloaded and set up a 450, 500, 600 and a 700 helis in my G3.5. I fly 1 hour each day and every 10 minutes I switch helis in the simulator constantly. Each heli has it,s own feel in flipping, rolling and yaw. The beauty of this is I have not tried to do any matching of the collection of simulator helis. I leave my experience to compensate for the differences in physical speed and characteristics between all these simulator helis. After 3 months of flying various helis in the sim, it's had a very positive effect on my flying and confidence. I know this is crazy but it helps me a ton. My goal behind this is to not be connected to a single set of stick movements that I memorized, but to have more control in the area of "stick reaction" in response to exactly what the heli is doing".
I might ad this has nothing to do with learning how to fly a heli. This last paragraph has helped me more with fine tuning tricks I've learned and my flying style.

JoJo
Foreseeing My Flybarless Future!

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05-01-2010 02:34 PM  8 years agoPost 11
philthewrench

rrApprentice

Westchester Co. NY

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The sim is an indispensable tool in learning but at the end of the day nothing replaces real stick time. When I started flying I was all over the sim. Now I only sim in the off season, when I transition from sim to life I feel the same way you do. My timing, perception, pucker factor all take a few flights to adjust.

I know lots of guys really improve with the help of the sim but for me it's real stick time that makes the difference. Even watching in real life as apposed to a vid makes a world of difference for me. IRL I can see the heli move and connect to stick movements in my head but on the screen it's just something entertaining to watch.

Most people get the moves down cold on the sim and then do them for real but for me the sim has become a place to frame out stick movements, the rest I like to work out in the air.

Phil

... and now my impression of a lawn dart .......

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05-01-2010 02:47 PM  8 years agoPost 12
ssmith512

rrKey Veteran

Indianapolis, IN USA

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Thanks for all of the tips and suggestions friends. I am well beyond the hovering stage and I have always used the sim as a learning tool in lieu of a video game. I guess an easy way to describe my problem is that on the sim I can do many different manuevers on the deck 20 feet in front of me. When I try to do this in real life, I can get about half a manuever in and then it's time to bail. Now if I go 3 mistakes high and 50 feet in front of me, I can usually do OK, most of the time the manuevers dont look as pretty on the sim, but they happen. And I am talking pop and lock manuevers, big sky stuff I am OK with. Just trying to get the helicopter lower and closer has been a challenge. The other challenge for me is using the tail more; again on the sim I am AOK, but in real life, I suffer from freak-out syndrome. LOL!

Like one said, maybe it is just a matter of burning more fuel than sim time. Maybe I am spending too much time on the sim and expecting more immediate results at the field. Ugh. My wife is going to kill me when I tell her I need to triple my fuel budget! LOL!!

Thanks again for the advice and suggestions!

Steve

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05-02-2010 02:10 AM  8 years agoPost 13
itsjojo

rrKey Veteran

North East Pennnsylvania

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that pucker factor gets us all. I can honestly say my goal for 2010 was to "burn nitro". I am stuck in a rut and need real stick time too. I have relied on the sim (which has been amazing) but to reduce the "freak out" syndrome I need a more robust fuel budget!

JoJo
Foreseeing My Flybarless Future!

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05-02-2010 03:22 AM  8 years agoPost 14
spiccolli99

rrApprentice

phila,pa-usa

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i hear that itsjoo
speaking of learning with 1 heli i have become glued to my 600. somethings wrong it gets fixed. if it comes to upgrading the 600 gets it. i fly that thing more then anything in my entire fleet. its the backbone of my flyin and learning all together. i love that heli and im glad i got the 600 to learn on. i learned how to fly that and it is the masterpiece of practicing real life. i do all my 1st time anything new on the 600. especially for learning and beginners i woould highly recamend it. i have flew many helis in just 10 months of this hobby and practice 23 hrs. outta 24 hrs. a day. i have been in this flyin airplanes for my whole life (32yrs) and just started helis about a year now. im working on my piro flips on 10months ive been doing helis

which way is it going dude!!!!!!?? am i inverted??

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05-02-2010 03:45 AM  8 years agoPost 15
Spitfire1

rrElite Veteran

Perth Australia

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Dont worry its not just you, I dont find the sim (Phoenix) anything like my real helis at all.

edit: I often wonder if its got something to do with playing too many computer games when younger, I find I try and master the game to the point of perfection, in the same way I will for e.g master a manouver on the sim, find a way to cheat the system to say get a piroflip happening, or tic tocs or what ever but not be able to do it with a real heli.

Ive found things that dont use any collective like backward flying, or mild backflips can be learned on the sim, anything that can bog the rotor (most things you do) doesent seem to translate over, also I cant speak for flybarless, but Ive never flown a heli that will sideways flip without any elevator interaction, you cant just hold the stick full left and flip constantly, eventualy the heli will corcscrew and bog.

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05-02-2010 04:49 AM  8 years agoPost 16
Fnity

rrKey Veteran

Socal - Lafayette, IN

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^^ ^^ ROL Zaneman007, funny funny funny
kinda what I was thinking

Frank Leyva
Rave, Next-D, Radix
Scorpion Power Systems
GensACE

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05-02-2010 05:51 AM  8 years agoPost 17
spiccolli99

rrApprentice

phila,pa-usa

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i totally learned how to fly backwards
i learned to fly backwards..rephrase that..everything i do in real life i mastered on the sim 1st! backwards flying half piro flips
hovering for the 1st time. everything i can do on the sim i will fly really high and try it in real life

which way is it going dude!!!!!!?? am i inverted??

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05-02-2010 09:53 AM  8 years agoPost 18
Spitfire1

rrElite Veteran

Perth Australia

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The main adjustment to make in the Phoenix menu is in the main rotor menu.

Hover Stability.It is 100% by default.Make it 0%.
Mccrack might be on to something here, I just tried it on phoenix and it definately made it a lot harder(more realist), not sure zero percent Im going to tinker with it a bit.

Maybe bring the power down to about 50 percent, and fiddle with the hovering stability.

It hurts to make something worse/harder to fly, but I think thats the the only way to make it more real.

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05-02-2010 12:09 PM  8 years agoPost 19
itsjojo

rrKey Veteran

North East Pennnsylvania

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speaking of learning with 1 heli i have become glued to my 600. somethings wrong it gets fixed. if it comes to upgrading the 600 gets it. i fly that thing more then anything in my entire fleet. its the backbone of my flyin and learning all together. i love that heli and im glad i got the 600 to learn on. i learned how to fly that and it is the masterpiece of practicing real life. i do all my 1st time anything new on the 600. especially for learning and beginners
Yea, I kinda feeling the same. I love my 700 but my600 seems to be more challenging. I got it when I was fairly new to helis and now I am taking advice from my buddy Mxracer to upgrade it. It is flying better than ever now.

Back to the sim:
I also look at the simulator as "learning the sticks". This for me has continued to be a vital part in learning heli flying. Early on I couldn't even do any type of tic tocs. It was my fingers! I just couldn't do it. Today three years later I am pretty used to tic tocs. I do practice them all the time. I think what got my fingers in-shape to the back and forth action was the simulator.
Learning the sticks seems to be step one. Step 2 is to learn the Rc heli. The funny thing is that having mastered a few tricks on my nitros this way, looking back at the learning way of learning it seems a good way to learn.

JoJo
Foreseeing My Flybarless Future!

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05-02-2010 12:49 PM  8 years agoPost 20
holzback

rrKey Veteran

noblesville IN United States

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i dont know what parameters you can change on the sim, but make the heli fly as crappy a possible. i have realized that sims will only get you to a transition point, then you have to work hard to make it work in real life.

you aint crashin you aint learnin

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