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HomeAircraftHelicopterThunder TigerRAPTOR 50 › wag issue
04-30-2010 03:13 AM  8 years agoPost 1
Gregd

rrApprentice

Covington LOUISIANA

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Just a question
Raptor 50 with a non hyper os 50 sx
Atg gov running 17oo
Gy401 , I have sab 600 and I get wag I have not done tracking yet my hh is set to 65% llinkages ok running stock.tail Blades no crashes did have a grip fly off from the grub screw being too tight so i replaced it with the new style hub no issues now however the wag was there before that happened, ive played with the gain and messed with motor tuning i did notice hardly any wag after i got the carbsmart and a modded sensor that wont break so the top end is at 100c seems perfect the low end diesels a little i turned it to the right or clk wise it was a little better going rich or to the left it chugged bad. and stuttered before getting on the high needle . im lost with it. i ran nitro planes and boats this needle stuff is sensitive tho @ 15%
Thanks

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04-30-2010 01:12 PM  8 years agoPost 2
TachyonDriver

rrKey Veteran

Chipping, Lancs, UK

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Is your rudder servo mounted at the front of the heli with pushrods running through guides on the tail boom? If so, check the guides: Make sure that the pushrod can move freely within them BUT ALSO make sure the guides themselves are secured to the boom so that they cannot slide about.

Tach.

Little Spinning Bundle of Joy® DON'T DISS THE DINO!!

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04-30-2010 01:42 PM  8 years agoPost 3
BarracudaHockey

rrMaster

Jacksonville FL

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Check your gyro mounting tape as well.

Usually wag is too much gain though.

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com

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04-30-2010 06:12 PM  8 years agoPost 4
Gregd

rrApprentice

Covington LOUISIANA

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i rechecked the guides their secure and the rods are moving really free no issues their i actually checked that first.

how low of gain can i run on a raptor i have my outrage at 60 it holds great. using a dx7 on the gear channel im at 65/65%
TAPE does look nitro soaked but is holding good still.

and my wag isnt a consistent wag its more like wag kick its not rhythmic so to speak

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04-30-2010 07:40 PM  8 years agoPost 5
BarracudaHockey

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Jacksonville FL

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That sounds like tuning.

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com

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04-30-2010 09:37 PM  8 years agoPost 6
Gregd

rrApprentice

Covington LOUISIANA

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im running the carbsmart unit and (a modded sensor so top end is right
low end might be a little rough it does sort of 4 cycle or diesel i call it

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04-30-2010 10:11 PM  8 years agoPost 7
Gary H

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Minnesota USA

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Try bumping the head speed up a tad!! Maybe (TRY) 1850??? Sounds like Barracuda is on to something!!! Mite b a tad on the rich side, best do some tuning>
Gary H

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04-30-2010 10:59 PM  8 years agoPost 8
Gregd

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Covington LOUISIANA

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gary i agree it could be i noticed today i tore down the head to rebuild and noticed the blue dampeners were dry couldn't that cause some shake too.

i have that atg, norm is 1700 idl= 1850 idl2 bumped to 1900 still had the wag tho not as much , i wont know about the dampeners or the motor till tomorrow when or if it stops raining here

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05-01-2010 02:34 AM  8 years agoPost 9
Rotowerkz

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Windham, NH

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Is the wag slow or fast? If slow wag, you need to either bump up the headspeed or lube/check the pushrod routing to make sure it is as fricton-free as possible. Also, if slow, try bumping up the delay on the gyro a bit.

If fast wag, you have too much gain, either with your gyro OR with the mechanical gain.

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05-01-2010 02:56 AM  8 years agoPost 10
Gregd

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Covington LOUISIANA

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im running the 401 with whatever the servo that comes with it 9254 i think. its set on ds/on delay 0 its more of a fast glitchy wag i guess . i thought the delay was seposed to be 0 for digital

i will try to get a video tomorrow weather permitting

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05-02-2010 03:21 AM  8 years agoPost 11
Rotowerkz

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Windham, NH

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The 9254 is a fast enough servo for this. If you have a fast wag (tail jittering back and forth), leave delay at zero. Turn the gain down...

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05-02-2010 05:04 AM  8 years agoPost 12
Gregd

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Covington LOUISIANA

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i went over everything today although the weather was really bad.
i found the gyro tape has oil on it. and the washout base was stripped 1 side was really loose.
i ordered a new one in metal. i will try to go down more on the gain what would you think a good base number for the 401 in hh would be.

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05-02-2010 11:01 AM  8 years agoPost 13
Ben-T-Spindle

rrProfessor

Central Illinois

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Sometimes moving the link in on the servo arm will help. Try one hold closer to the center of the servo arm and see if that helps.

... BTS

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05-04-2010 04:53 AM  8 years agoPost 14
Gregd

rrApprentice

Covington LOUISIANA

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i ordered the metal outrage 550 washout base i hope it fits i have one on my heli but didnt feel like taking the head off but its all aluminum not the plastic also spartan tape and attenuation pad

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05-08-2010 02:02 AM  8 years agoPost 15
Gregd

rrApprentice

Covington LOUISIANA

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ok i have changed the feather shaft, plus put the new washout base and gyro tape im still having slight wag im wondering if its my os 50 sx running rich in the low end. today i leaned it a tad and it got better when it got too lean it rrrrrrr_rrr_ rrrrrrrrrrr hard to explain but it stuttered bad backed it more towards the center line maby a hair counter clockwise seamed to slow the wag almost to nothing

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05-08-2010 03:45 AM  8 years agoPost 16
GREYEAGLE

rrElite Veteran

Flat Land's

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It's called mechanical gain
Search for post's on the subject and a good white paper by Raptorman23 -- Bet T Spindel has it nailed.

Ive been thru it- move your ball on the horn then go back thru your electronic gain's. Should be able to get it in the 30's or even lower.

greyeagle

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05-08-2010 04:09 AM  8 years agoPost 17
RaptorMan23

rrKey Veteran

Sioux City, IA

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what would you think a good base number for the 401 in hh would be.
There really isnt a starting point because your radio gain number means nothing, it is basically means the percentage of mechanical gain you are utilizing. I have found that even TT's measurment from center of servo horn to ball on the tail servo horn is inaccurate. Greyeagle for example, had his servo horn ball measured about dead nuts by the book. He fought a tail wag from the time he built it all the way up to last summer which was a total of a few years I believe. I started figuring out the whole mechanical gain theory and found out alot of helpful info.

Even though it means nothing right now lets say you have ALOT of mechanical gain, (which I believe you do). IF you have to take your radio gain number down to 5-15% or somthing of that nature and your still getting a wag, that means your mechanical gain is to greater than the radio gain's window of control.

Here is a simple analogy

Mechanical gain= a very nose heavy helicopter

radio gain number= radio trim

NOW, if you have a very nose heavy helicopter, is it possible to NOT have enough trim to ensure a level hover?

This means if you have TOO much mechanical gain, you can run short on the radio gains ability to calm the gyro. I can go into it in depth if needed, this just scratches the surface

If you only have to bend over once to pick it up it's a good landing.

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05-08-2010 05:08 AM  8 years agoPost 18
BarracudaHockey

rrMaster

Jacksonville FL

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Some examples..

Carbon blades have more mechanical gain than plastic because they are stiffer. Longer (and wider chord) blades have more mechanical gain than smaller (or narrower) because a given pitch change will provide more thrust.

The Vibe 50 has a lot of mechanical gain because it uses a 90 size tail hub and the disk is huge so you need to run shorter blades or the tail wags.

Electronic gain is the amount the gyro will move the servo for a given rotational velocity. More gain=more servo movement to the point it starts over shooting over and over (wagging). Not enough gain and you're making your gyro ineffective.

Ideally with the 401 you want the limit at or slightly above 100, if its maxed out your arms too short, if it's below that your arm is too long and you're reducing the resolution of the gyro.

In the case of setting up gyros more isn't better (longer arms, more gain etc) balance is better. You need to find a good balance between electronic and mechanical gain.

Edit: I've found on a 50 nitro like the Raptor or Trex you should be in the 50 to 65% (true) gain range. On a 9C for example that would be AVC 65. Other radios display it differently so you have to know what you're looking at. The 401 wasn't designed with little bitty 450s in mind and about the best you're going to get out of it one one of those is around 35 percent.

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com

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