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HomeAircraftHelicopterSafety - RC Helis are not toys › HK 600 GT on FIRE !!
04-27-2010 12:17 AM  8 years agoPost 81
jackheli

rrProfessor

Vancouver - Canada

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Bob, hope you've increased the cell count and reduced the pinion size. Way too much current on your earlier setup
I've been flying it on 6s for three years now and there is tons of power and no heat...

CC85 and NEU 1515-2D

The amps alone have nothing to do with heat dissipation. You need to look at total power load in watts, which is the current (amps) times the voltage. So if you reduce the current but still bump up the voltage by adding more cells, doing nothing more than changing pinions, you will still fry your esc.

Now, if you get a more efficient power setup at 8s, either by putting better gear or using less stick movement to fly, that is a completely different story.

It's easy to find an excuse to do wrong. Hard is not to find an excuse to do right.

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04-27-2010 12:24 AM  8 years agoPost 82
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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The amps alone have nothing to do with heat dissipation. You need to look at total power load in watts, which is the current (amps) times the voltage. So if you reduce the current but still bump up the voltage by adding more cells, doing nothing more than changing pinions, you will still fry your esc.
Not quite correct. To do the same work you can increase the voltage and decreaase the amperage and you will have a more effecient setup. Heat comes from resistance and when you draw more amps than the ESC likes (too low a voltage or too high an amperage draw) it builds up heat. You can lower the amperage needs by increasing the voltage therby increasing the efficiency of the system. That is why an 8s or 10s system is ideal for that size/weight heli...........Ron

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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04-27-2010 12:39 AM  8 years agoPost 83
Yug

rrMaster

UK. Herts

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It's a shame 6S has become so popular while folk are pushing their head speeds to extremes. A recapie for disaster as these systems leave no margin. Anything that is running unreasonably hot is being overstressed so something will inevitably give up.

Vegetable rights and Peace

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04-27-2010 12:51 AM  8 years agoPost 84
jackheli

rrProfessor

Vancouver - Canada

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Not quite correct.
That is why when you go buy a light bulb, a heater or anything that generates heat from electricity you specify what you want in amps, correct?

Wrong. You do it in Watts.

The reason a 8S works better is simply because the gear used is better. Higher voltage will give you pop, I agree, but for that it will draw more peak current and increase load. If you increase voltage on a resistive circuit chances are the current will increase if unchecked (I = V/R, yes?)

Your call- better gear of smoother flying.

Other than that you are toast either way.

It's easy to find an excuse to do wrong. Hard is not to find an excuse to do right.

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04-27-2010 12:59 AM  8 years agoPost 85
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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Watts is the total work used VxA=W. So if the problem is too much amperage, increase the voltage to get the same wattage in the system. So say your total system needs 4000 watts, you can get that by 40 volts x 100 amps or 400 volts by 10 amps. Either way you have a 4000 watt system. The higher voltage system works better because now your ESC is running no where nears it's capacity in amps thus it runs cooler. So as long as you stay in the voltage operating realm of the ESC, the higher the voltage, the less amperage used, thus the more efficient the system and the cooler it runs...........Ron

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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04-27-2010 01:04 AM  8 years agoPost 86
Yug

rrMaster

UK. Herts

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Is this going to be a 5 minute argument or a 10 minute argument ?
Higher current systems present greater stress to electrical systems than low current systems. Power = V.I
Therefore it follows that for a given HS, using a smaller battery cell count and larger pinion will demand proportionately greater current than a larger battery cell count and smaller pinion. As I said earlier, 6S is really pushing the envelope for anything more than sport flying as the current demands are simply so high.
Sport flying is probably where the majority of pilots get to, and this is where the mass sales are, so 6S packs have the best and most economical sales. If you are getting into more aggressive 3D flight, then 6s simply cannot satisfy the power demands, either by way of the battery or ESC, so 10s is the next step if you're looking for better longevity.

Vegetable rights and Peace

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04-27-2010 06:47 AM  8 years agoPost 87
jackheli

rrProfessor

Vancouver - Canada

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What happens is that with a higher voltage setups you need to go for a lower KV motor, which are all of good quality and more efficient.

Again, I run 6S on a good quality motor, governed, LOTS of power and absolutely no heat.

Get your 8s setup with a crappy Align motor and see what happens.

Also, chances are that in higher voltage configurations current could go on a free for all run, since higher dielectric isolation is necessary.

But you guys are electric engineers and know it all

It's easy to find an excuse to do wrong. Hard is not to find an excuse to do right.

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04-27-2010 11:19 AM  8 years agoPost 88
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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I can't explain it any further I am not an electrical engineer either but I do understand basic electronics and electrical theory. Bottom line there are many companies that make HV ESCs that I would not trust because they are not "good" but if I got one, set it up on 10s, and compared it to your 6s setup (both running 2300 on the head) I assure you, mine will win in power, heat, and longevity which is what the OP is strivibg for..........Ron

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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04-27-2010 02:24 PM  8 years agoPost 89
Bob Wales (RIP)

rrKey Veteran

Lebanon CT

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OK I understand none of that so what pinion do you reccomend that I fly with the current setup that I have now.

The batteries that I have been using are the Turnigy 20c and 30c 6s5000.
I just recieved in the mail two brand new Turnigy 45c 6s5000.

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04-27-2010 05:36 PM  8 years agoPost 90
Ronald Thomas

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Gainesville, Fl, USA

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Go to a 14T instead and be mindful of temps. If you want an all out 3D machine, go to 8s or 10s..........Ron

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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04-27-2010 06:04 PM  8 years agoPost 91
jackheli

rrProfessor

Vancouver - Canada

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I can't explain it any further
In simple terms:

10s works great on a crappy ESC because a flat governed curve close to 90~100% is needed to get the right rpm on the head. That is due to the very low KV ratings on those specific motors. The lower the percentage necessary on the ESC setup the harder it will work.

Think of it this way: whatever voltage drop is not taken care by the motor will need to be handled by the ESC.

Going for lower percentage rates on the ESC means the voltage differential that it will need to handle will increase. When multiplying the voltage drop on the ESC by the current you get heat...

Going for higher percentages lowers the voltage drop since most of the voltage on the battery pack is sent directly to the motor. Then the current matters very little.
what pinion do you recommend
What is the KV rating on the motor you are using?

It's easy to find an excuse to do wrong. Hard is not to find an excuse to do right.

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04-27-2010 06:37 PM  8 years agoPost 92
Bob Wales (RIP)

rrKey Veteran

Lebanon CT

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The KV rating on the 650L is 1220.

How would run a 10 setup on a Trex 600 ?

Where would you place the batteries ?

Maybe this could be my phase 3 testing !

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04-27-2010 07:33 PM  8 years agoPost 93
jackheli

rrProfessor

Vancouver - Canada

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Assuming you have plastic blade grips and do not want to go over 2000rpm, as laughingstill said use 14t pinion. You could maybe push it to 15t on metal grips (what I would use). Or go for 13t for sport flying an longer flight times.

The easiest way to find this by yourself is to go to http://www.readyheli.com/headspeed-calculator.html

Use 170 for the main gear. The main metric is the "Avg RPM you will see with 100% throttle and no governor". Assuming you will govern your ESC to about 85%~90% on 14t you will have about 100rpm to use to govern, which is roughly on the 10% recommended spare rpm margin.

For a 10s you would need an 8t or 9t pinion with that motor, which does not exist. Maybe think about 8s. I would use two 4s x 3700mAH batteries side by side in the battery holder and an 11t pinion.

There are other calculators out there that give you more data (such as total power consumption) which will allow you to estimate heat, etc...

But that is a bigger issue.

Just for the record, the motor I am using is 1700KV, so lots of rpm to spare on 6S

It's easy to find an excuse to do wrong. Hard is not to find an excuse to do right.

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04-27-2010 07:53 PM  8 years agoPost 94
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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That motor KV and max rpm will not allow for an 8s or 10s setup.
The reason you get a more reliable system (one that eats less amps and creates less heat) with the lower pinion is because you are using less overall power (watts) in the power train. When you increase the HS, you increase the overall wattage of the system. It has NOTHING to do with how good your electronics are, you simply have to stay within the range of that ESC (amperage wise, and voltage wise)............Ron

Jackheli try to look at it this way: Jack your HS up to 2400 and run everything else the same (time, flight style, etc). The ONLY difference will be increased temps AND you burn up more mah in the pack over the same flight time. You have effectively decreased the efficiency of that system without changing any of the electronics...........Ron

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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04-27-2010 08:00 PM  8 years agoPost 95
jackheli

rrProfessor

Vancouver - Canada

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Heat on the ESC, which is the part blowing off, has to do with voltage drop on the ESC and current. Period.

But have it your way. I'm done.

It's easy to find an excuse to do wrong. Hard is not to find an excuse to do right.

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04-27-2010 08:35 PM  8 years agoPost 96
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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Heat on the ESC, which is the part blowing off, has to do with voltage drop on the ESC and current. Period.
Absolutely correct Higher voltage = less current needed (amperage) = less heat.

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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04-28-2010 04:55 AM  8 years agoPost 97
Pat.B

rrNovice

Plantsville Ct

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Hey Bob
Yep Trevor,Erwin,Gary,Jeff the whole bunch of them are good dudes up there, best hobbyshop in the country!!

Pat.B

^.^

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04-28-2010 05:12 AM  8 years agoPost 98
Bob Wales (RIP)

rrKey Veteran

Lebanon CT

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They sure are known them for a long time.

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05-25-2010 04:07 PM  8 years agoPost 99
Rogman88

rrElite Veteran

West Monroe, LA

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My buddy was learning to fly on his new 600ESP and on his 15th flight of just hovering we noticed flames coming from under his canopy. I took some pics of his align 100A ESC. He got a new one from readyheli free of charge and has had good luck with his replacement after 100 flights. I also went 12S and scorpion 4025-625 on 13T pinion and temps have dropped on my batteries, ESC (CC 85HV) and motor from the 130's to low 100's. The only thing I changed was the motor (scorp 4025-1100 before) and now I'm happy

High Voltage just works better

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05-26-2010 12:59 PM  8 years agoPost 100
Bob Wales (RIP)

rrKey Veteran

Lebanon CT

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Rogman88

What are you getting for headspeed with your setup ?

Also what are your throttle curve settings ?

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HomeAircraftHelicopterSafety - RC Helis are not toys › HK 600 GT on FIRE !!
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