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Logo 600 › Logo 600 - 12S - What Scorpion Motor?
04-09-2010 03:21 AM  8 years agoPost 1
rexxigpilot

rrProfessor

Florida

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Hey guys,

I'm trying to put a Logo 600 package together using a 12S setup. I can't decide on which Scorpion motor/pinion combination to use. BTW, I'm not interested in the Xera or any other motor.

The two motors pinion combos I'm deciding between is the 4035-500 with a 12T pinion or the 5020-450 with a 13T pinion. Desired HS is 2200-2300 rpm with 600-603mm blades. I may go with larger blades in the future. Gearing will be mod 1 (106T main gear). ESC will be a CC ICE 80HV.

Each motor has a peak continuous rating of around 84-85 A and 3500 - 3770 watts. I can get my desired HS with throttle signals in the low 80% to mid 90% range depending on the motor/pinion.

I plan on using two 4000mAh 35-40C packs.

I like the 10mm motor shaft (internal, 6mm pinion) on the 5020 for added strength.

Can I please get some feedback on my proposed setup combos. Thanks a ton.

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04-09-2010 03:42 AM  8 years agoPost 2
mmc205

rrElite Veteran

PA - USA

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i'm running the scorpion 4035-500 motor with 12 tooth pinion (mod 1) at 2000 rpm right now. i think i'd be good to 2100, maybe 2200 but you may have to jump to 13 tooth. I'm happy with the combo, very powerful and motor gets a bit warm (about 140F during 3D) but thats really not that bad. below is a data log.

***Logo 600 vbar***Henseleit TDR vbar***

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04-09-2010 03:49 AM  8 years agoPost 3
rexxigpilot

rrProfessor

Florida

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mmc205, What flight time do you get under fairly hard 3D and what size are your packs and blades?

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04-09-2010 05:28 AM  8 years agoPost 4
dahld

rrKey Veteran

Bakersfield, CA, USA

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Just a thought. The weight of your battery packs (12S 4000's), combined with the (rather heavy) 5020-450, may (most likely), cause the standard (non-stretched) Logo 600 CG problems.

If the weight of the packs is over about 1250 grams, combined with the 5020, be prepared to add weight to the tail (the V-Bar likes a well balanced heli...so best if you don't ignore this point .

As an example, 10S packs in the 1250-1350 grams range with the 4035 need about an ounce at the tail to balance.

The 5020 will be (I suspect...waiting to give it a try), a great motor for the Logo 600 SE, swinging 693 blades. The longer boom and bigger disc will make the weight of the motor and heavier batteries a non-issue. But I don't know if it would be a good match for a standard Logo 600.

Dave

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04-09-2010 06:54 AM  8 years agoPost 5
NTM

rrVeteran

Lloydminster, Alberta, Canada

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I'm running a scorpion 4035-500kv with an 11 tooth pinion, 2240 rpm at 80% on the jive governor (calibrated endpoints).
12s 40c 4000mah packs, 620mm sab blades, 13.5 degrees of pitch.
With intermediate 3d flying style I'm getting 6 minutes of flying time easily. Usually only 2300 to 2600 mah out of the packs.

I've also run the same motor and pinion in a stretched logo 600.
Bbt insane 693mm blades, 12s 40c 4000mah packs, 13 degrees of pitch.
2150 rpm (woot ) at 70% on the jive.
6 minutes of 3d with lots left in the packs.

mmc205's setup is way overgeared for his 2000 rpm head speed.

I've found my 12s 40c 4000mah turnigy packs to be too heavy at 1400 grams for great performance on 620mm blades. It's good, but doesn't have the instant collective response I've become used to.
Much better on 640mm blades, and a crazed popasaurus on the 693mm blades.
It also barely balances with these packs, I had to build extra heavy duty tail boom braces, run the heavier quick uk tail, and can't run a carbon boom. I can also only run my lighter canopies, any of my nice custom painted ones are too heavy.
1200 grams is the sweet spot for pack weight in a logo 600, try and aim for that.

The 5020 isn't a great choice for 600-620mm blades because of the extra weight, the need for mikado's larger motor mount, and the need to spread the frames to install it.
You can only use so much power on 600mm blades and the 4035-500 easily provides it.
With that said, I've got a 5020-450 on the way for use with my stretched 600 and the heavy 12s 40c 4000mah packs, and some lighter 12s 30c 3800mah packs on the way for use with my 620mm bladed 600.
Let the good times roll

Regards,
Nathan

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04-09-2010 12:38 PM  8 years agoPost 6
mmc205

rrElite Veteran

PA - USA

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mmc205's setup is way overgeared for his 2000 rpm head speed

funny you say that, i just popped a 11T pinion on last night!

all i had (bought it used) was the 12T so i used it for the meantime.

with the 12T i get roughly 6 minutes of pretty constant 3D at 2000 rpm.
i think if i sport flew it would be closer to 7 minutes.

i'm using 12S 3300 packs and taking out 2600-2800 in 6 minutes.

Its a very lightweight setup, hence the low headspeed. Has lots of pop because of the lack of weight in batteries. with 12S 2650 i was 7.7 pounds RTF, but now probbly closer to 7.9 pounds. i'll try to throw it on the scale tonight.

***Logo 600 vbar***Henseleit TDR vbar***

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04-09-2010 12:40 PM  8 years agoPost 7
mmc205

rrElite Veteran

PA - USA

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oh, and i wanted to add, with teh 2 6S 3300 packs put end to end as far into the tray as possible (the front one sticks out roughly 3 inches) it balances perfectly i've taken to putting a small level on the main gear since my lift it by the blade bolts method seemed to get it close, but never spot on.

***Logo 600 vbar***Henseleit TDR vbar***

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04-09-2010 04:31 PM  8 years agoPost 8
NTM

rrVeteran

Lloydminster, Alberta, Canada

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I certainly did get pretty ambitious with the 1400 gram 12s 4000mah pack.
The lighter 3300 to 3800mah cells are a way better choice for sure.

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04-10-2010 06:17 PM  8 years agoPost 9
mmc205

rrElite Veteran

PA - USA

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i weight in at 8lbs, 2oz with the 12S 3300 pack and the HEAVY fusuno canopy.

***Logo 600 vbar***Henseleit TDR vbar***

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04-10-2010 08:45 PM  8 years agoPost 10
mmc205

rrElite Veteran

PA - USA

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popped the 11T on and did a test flight, holds 1900 and 2000 rpm just fine for anyone who is interested.

***Logo 600 vbar***Henseleit TDR vbar***

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04-10-2010 09:04 PM  8 years agoPost 11
rexxigpilot

rrProfessor

Florida

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mmc205, did the smaller pinion lower the motor temp?

dahld, thanks for tip on the weight issue. I remember discussing the weight problem with you and Kyle at the Orlando event. I recall you had weight on the tail of Kyle's 600. I guess I could go with smaller/lighter packs.

BTW, the 5020-450 weighs only 37g. more than the 4035-500. That weight is foward of the CG, so it should help the tail heaviness on the 600.

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04-10-2010 09:19 PM  8 years agoPost 12
mmc205

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PA - USA

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not sure yet... i only did a quick 2 minute test flight because there were 30mph winds.....

as soon as i do some full length flights i'll let you know.

***Logo 600 vbar***Henseleit TDR vbar***

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04-12-2010 12:06 PM  8 years agoPost 13
mmc205

rrElite Veteran

PA - USA

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okay, had a few good test flights on the 11T. doing 3D and aero, the motor temp seemed a bit cooler, but still about 130F, nothing to worry about. the speed controller was 130F, but my mah usage went from almost 450mah/min to 400mah/min!!! That i love! headspeed and pitch was left alone between the pinion swap, and the average amp draw went down, and the peaks went down a little, but with no loss of "pop"

I'd highly recommend the 11T to anyone as now i'll be able to get 6.5 to 7 minute flights up from 5.5 to 6 on 12S 3300.

***Logo 600 vbar***Henseleit TDR vbar***

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04-12-2010 12:09 PM  8 years agoPost 14
mmc205

rrElite Veteran

PA - USA

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oh, just to compare, 400mah/min on 12S is equivalent to 480 mah/min on 10S or 600mah/min on 8S.

I know the usage probably seems low but part of that is due to my very crisp but decidedly non-ballistic setup, and partly due to the 12S system.

***Logo 600 vbar***Henseleit TDR vbar***

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04-12-2010 02:21 PM  8 years agoPost 15
rexxigpilot

rrProfessor

Florida

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mmc205,
Your 12.5% increase in efficiency is great. Which ESC are you using and are you using governor mode?

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04-12-2010 04:01 PM  8 years agoPost 16
mmc205

rrElite Veteran

PA - USA

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i'm using a castle hv 45 and using governor mode @ 2000 rpm.
given the light weight of my setup (8.12 pounds or 3683 grams) it didn't feel like i needed any more headspeed to gave the collective pop i liked, or the stability (thank you vbar!!)

***Logo 600 vbar***Henseleit TDR vbar***

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04-12-2010 04:06 PM  8 years agoPost 17
NTM

rrVeteran

Lloydminster, Alberta, Canada

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The 600 is very nose heavy with 12s 4000mah.
Adding the 5020-450 to the mix is a bad idea.

And just to repeat here, the 4035-500 on 12s with an 11 tooth pinion will easily do 2200 rpm with governor head room to spare.
That's with 35+ c packs anyways.

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04-12-2010 04:11 PM  8 years agoPost 18
mmc205

rrElite Veteran

PA - USA

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i'm running 25C right now, i may try 2200 just to see if it works. It also depends on kv. my 500 kv motor may actually be 475 and yours could be 525. that would be a +/- 125 max governed rpm. manufacturers usually say the motors are within 5% of the listed kv, i'm not sure where the scorpions end up. then of course as you mentioned, you have c rating, esc efficiency, etc playing in, but actual kv and lipos probably play the largest role.

hmm, just thinking here for a 1 volt difference in sagging voltage, that would mean roughly 56 rpm difference, so if you had a older pack and a motor on the low end of the kv range, it could mean -175 rpm difference in max governed speed (one that would hold well anyway)

i wonder what scorpions kv range is, this has me wondering.

***Logo 600 vbar***Henseleit TDR vbar***

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04-12-2010 04:13 PM  8 years agoPost 19
mmc205

rrElite Veteran

PA - USA

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this is for 11T mod 1, 12S lipo 35C
i've always found this to be on the conservative side though

oltage for this calculation (avg):3,6075/cell with a total of 43,29
Nominal voltage: Spoolup RPM 100% throttle no governor (44,4v): 2304
Avg RPM you will see with 100% throttle and no governor: 2161

Max normal bogging applied you will see RPM at: 1909
(this number should be the minimum if your motor & battery is up for the challenge)

***Logo 600 vbar***Henseleit TDR vbar***

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04-13-2010 03:13 PM  8 years agoPost 20
rexxigpilot

rrProfessor

Florida

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OK, the 5020 is out then since the 600 is nose heavy with reasonable battery sizes.

Next question is go with the 4035-500 and an 12T pinion or the 4035-560 and an 11T pinion?

Remember, I plan to use a 2200-2300 HS with 600mm blades initially. Later I will use 630mm or bigger blades and drop down to about 2100 HS.

Thanks for the input!

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